DPS Meter Megathread

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Effluvikoff

noaani wrote: »

1. Because people still need to come up with ideas, all a combat tracker does is tell you how good the idea you had is.

2. I don't see how it *could* break down discovery or wonder let alone feel the need to explain why it wouldn't.

How do you not understand this? You've literally answered your own question. And youll read this shit whether your sperg brain gets @'d or not. Lets be real.
>all a combat tracker does is tell you how good the idea you had is.

Unless you're so shortsighted you can't see how much damage that does to a community on a whole for a video game you are quite literally "SPOILING" the game. and taking the fun out for everyone. Discord is completely different to an actual calculator.

You instantly force a meta, and that meta is only changed by 1 thing and that's balance changes from developers. You make it so that there's nothing to be found. No cool mechanics that people didn't know about. Everything is completely open and instantly no one gives a shit anymore. The only people left caring are the people running the most optimal dungeon shit.

And guess what- the part of the question you skipped.

Guess what. That's fucking relative. You can literally run shit optimally as relative to the knowledge of the fucking community and it doesn't matter in the actual fucking slightest. Cut this shit out. You're done here.

Noaani

@Quiltsharts

Quiltsharts wrote: »

How do you not understand this? You've literally answered your own question. And youll read this shit whether your sperg brain gets @'d or not. Lets be real.
>all a combat tracker does is tell you how good the idea you had is.

I don't understand it, because you have not explained it.

And if there are 50+ posts between the times I am able to read this thread, as has been the case the last few days, then no, I do not read this shit whether my sperg brain gets @'d or not.

Unless you're so shortsighted you can't see how much damage that does to a community on a whole for a video game you are quite literally "SPOILING" the game. and taking the fun out for everyone. Discord is completely different to an actual calculator.

Ok, so, this is how coming up with a build works.

You have an idea.
You spec in to that idea.
You try that idea out.
You assess that idea.
If the idea was bad, you go back to the start, if it was good, you share it.

A combat tracker only assists in one part of that - it makes it easier to assess that build. I am not seeing how that "spoils" a game, nor takes the fun out of teh game for everyone.

Just an fyi, though I'm sure you are purposly using hyperbole there, most players (~85%) are not interested in coming up with a build. They will find a build someone has posted and use it until it no longer serves them.

You instantly force a meta, and that meta is only changed by 1 thing and that's balance changes from developers. You make it so that there's nothing to be found. No cool mechanics that people didn't know about. Everything is completely open and instantly no one gives a shit anymore. The only people left caring are the people running the most optimal dungeon shit.

A combat tracker doesn't find new mechanics for you. I'm not sure why you think it would.

That said, combat tracker or no, all of those things will be figured out in beta. We will have a fairly detailed understanding of the full combat system, because dozens of people are going to dedicate a lot of time to taht end, and then share the information that they find so anyone can benefit from it that wants to.

As to the games meta, I think you are forgetting the fact that this is a PvP game.

In a PvP game, the meta should always be moving, but this will only happen if players are willing to respec. Players will only respec in a PvP game if they are able to be reasonably assured that the build they are respecing to is viable.

If Ashes gets it's meta right, in the first few months (likely 4 - if I had to guess) after launch we should see around 20 promonent builds - 2 or 3 for each archetype. Within each build, there will be a set of the other builds that are the scissors to your rock, a set that will be the paper to your rock, and the rest will be other rocks. The meta then shifts to people creating builds for their archetype that alters which other common builds they are going to beat. This then results in a constantly shifting meta that is based on what builds players see, how often they see them, and how many of them they can design a build to best in PvP.

The thing is, in order for this to work, there is a need for rapid iterating. If a build takes you three weeks to perfect, it may well be obsolete by then as the classes it was designed to take on are no longer in vogue.

In regards to PvE (not that many people will run builds just for PvE), you need to remember that content will change based on node state.

It may well be that if you are taking on content that is primarily influencedby a military node, it is highly resistent to physical damage, but in content influenced in a scientific node, it may well be highly resistant to magical attacks. As such, the type of nodes that you are near will impact the build you want to be running.

And guess what- the part of the question you skipped.

Guess what. That's fucking relative. You can literally run shit optimally as relative to the knowledge of the fucking community and it doesn't matter in the actual fucking slightest. Cut this shit out. You're done here.

I assumed you were joking with this.

People will often run what the community tells them is best, this is true.

The thing is (and this is a thing I have pointed out many times on this thread), the community will post what is best regardless of if combat trackers exist or not.

If someone posts a thread saying "this is the optimal build for this piece of content", then that all what some players will take on that content. It doesn't matter if that post - or the game - makes use of objective data.

People will read it, believe it, and then follow it.

This is why I say the real issue you have is in forums, websites, chat and discord, not combat trackers. The things you are complaining about here happening with combat trackers will all still happen without them. The only difference is, if combat trackers are used, at least the information actually might be accurate.

Honestly, with how many times I have said that in this thread, I assumed you were joking when you bought it up again.

Nastyone

Thought about the topic for some time and played already several years of life time myself with mmorpgs and addons where you could track your performance. I can understand both sides wich want to test things and optimize myself, and the people who dont want that there are groups of people who exclude others because of their performance.

Suggestion:
DPS Meter where you see only yourself with detailed information (skills, crits, hits, etc)
and at the end of the dungeon (instance what ever) you get for yourself a Ranking like you made a Rank C

The Rank System could be based on a Database wich is only tracked by the Publisher themselfs and if you are one of the 10% best of People wich took the same Prime and Second Class you get Rank B for example. (like WoW logs where you get colours based on your performance in comparison to other players, only that it is not public)

Sorry for my bad english. I hope i could convey my idea

3am

@Quiltsharts
@noaani

This guy... This guy gets it. 51 pages of children being told no and throwing a fit about it. Cut it out.

Effluvikoff

noaani wrote: »

If someone posts a thread saying "this is the optimal build for this piece of content", then that all what some players will take on that content. It doesn't matter if that post - or the game - makes use of objective data.

I made you something.

Noaani

3am wrote: »

This guy... This guy gets it. 51 pages of children being told no and throwing a fit about it. Cut it out.

See, the thing is, I'm discussing, perhaps debating.

The people throwing fits, as you put it, are the people that are incapable of participating in a debate.

Noaani

@Quiltsharts

Quiltsharts wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

If someone posts a thread saying "this is the optimal build for this piece of content", then that all what some players will take on that content. It doesn't matter if that post - or the game - makes use of objective data.

I made you something.

Cute.

Wrong, but cute.

You are completely ignoring the impact PvP has on a games meta. In PvP games, there is no permanant "best build" because the types of targets you are going up against change every few weeks. As such, your build will change often as well. Also, the best build for you *at any given time* will be based on the type of builds you come up against.

If you are up against a guild that has a lot of a particular build, then your best possible build is probably one that can effectively counter that build - regardless of what other people on other servers - or what other people in other guilds on your server - think the best build is.

Feel free to do up a flow chart taking all of that in to consideration - assuming you want to participate in an actual discussion on the topic.

ShroudedFox

@Quiltsharts This guy gets it, without hard metrics and objective data speculation is more subjective and people are more likely to try different metas simply to experiment rather then this is the highest dps meta.

What's the point of having 64 classes if people only play 20 of them due to meta hunger, we will have 64 classes with 4 augments for each class on each of their abilities there is soo many combinations here that without a dps meter the meta can evolve for a long time, if a meter is introduced within the first 4 months soo many of these combinations will be written off with minimal in-game playing because dps meter says so...

as far as balancing goes I imagine IS is going to have the metrics saved to their system so they can do internal checks to make sure everything is balanced without the need for players to see it.

as for 3rd party trackers, if the server isn't reporting metrics to each client and is doing that internally it could be harder for them to be accurate,

I know no one is going to change their position that should be abundantly clear by now. If IS does decide to release an advanced combat tracker I don't see why it has to be at the games release, I reckon a wait and see approach is better so they can gauge if one is even required for their specific game.

Noaani

ShroudedFox wrote: »

This guy gets it, without hard metrics and objective data speculation is more subjective and people are more likely to try different metas simply to experiment rather then this is the highest dps meta.

Except literally the only real example of this that we have (Archeage) says the exact opposite is true. It is the one game with both PvP and low combat tracker usage that exists (l2 has fairly high combat tracker usage in comparison).

People in Archeage don't change their build. Ever.

The game has the same meta as it did in 2013 in Korea, because without objective data, no one wants to deviate from the established wisdom.

XLGames are at a point now where they are unable to alter the 5 or 6 main classes that people play in that game, because people would rather leave the game than attempt to find a new workable build.

The game is at a complete and perpetual standstill.

---

People need two things in order to change a build. They need a reason, and they need some sort of assurance they will be better off after the change.

The reason, in Ashes, is provided via other players builds, and PvE content changing due to the node structure.

The assurance is much harder to supply without objective data.

as for 3rd party trackers, if the server isn't reporting metrics to each client and is doing that internally it could be harder for them to be accurate,

It will be hard, but it will also be possible.

People making these tools only need one method to get their data. If it is hard, it is only hard once.

Knowing the work some of the people currently working on these trackers do for a living (and have done "for the lulz"), I wouldn't ever bet against them.

I know no one is going to change their position that should be abundantly clear by now. If IS does decide to release an advanced combat tracker I don't see why it has to be at the games release, I reckon a wait and see approach is better so they can gauge if one is even required for their specific game.

The reason it should be at release is because the idea of having one in the games client is so that Intrepid can have some sort of control over the tracker that the bulk of people that want to use one in Ashes actually do use.

If the game is released without one, people will use a third party one that will be ready some time during beta. Thus, when Intrepid release theirs, no one will care as we will all be using one we are happy with.

Basically, if they don't have one at release, there is no point in them attempting to release one later.

Linstead

Quiltsharts wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

1. Because people still need to come up with ideas, all a combat tracker does is tell you how good the idea you had is.

2. I don't see how it *could* break down discovery or wonder let alone feel the need to explain why it wouldn't.

How do you not understand this? You've literally answered your own question. And youll read this shit whether your sperg brain gets @'d or not. Lets be real.
>all a combat tracker does is tell you how good the idea you had is.

Unless you're so shortsighted you can't see how much damage that does to a community on a whole for a video game you are quite literally "SPOILING" the game. and taking the fun out for everyone. Discord is completely different to an actual calculator.

You instantly force a meta, and that meta is only changed by 1 thing and that's balance changes from developers. You make it so that there's nothing to be found. No cool mechanics that people didn't know about. Everything is completely open and instantly no one gives a shit anymore. The only people left caring are the people running the most optimal dungeon shit.

And guess what- the part of the question you skipped.

Guess what. That's fucking relative. You can literally run shit optimally as relative to the knowledge of the fucking community and it doesn't matter in the actual fucking slightest. Cut this shit out. You're done here.

That's just not true. People find new shit all the time, even in games like WoW where addons run the entire game. Hell, like I've said before in this thread, the current meta that has evolved for classic wow right now, was only discovered on private servers about ~3 years ago. They didn't find it in Vanilla (which had combat trackers), they didn't find it in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, or 2016 on private servers which all had combat trackers AND addons that tell you exactly what a raid encounter is going to do (Deadlybossmods, bigwigs, weakauras, etc). No, they found it in around 2017-2018 on private servers.

14 years after vanilla release, 13 of them with addons and trackers, and people were still finding new things. Hell people are finding new things on the classic servers RIGHT NOW, in a 16 year old game.

There hasn't been a balance change to Vanilla in any of those years, just btw.

ShroudedFox

noaani wrote: »

If the game is released without one, people will use a third party one that will be ready some time during beta. Thus, when Intrepid release theirs, no one will care as we will all be using one we are happy with.

Basically, if they don't have one at release, there is no point in them attempting to release one later.

If it is a ban-able to run a dps meter that is a massive deterrent ,a lot of people won't want to risk getting their account banned especially if they have put hundreds of hours into building that specific character, this does make the issue of people leaving the game due to bans because of a dps meter and will affect IS's bottom line.

If guilds are saying you must use a dps meter then they are putting themselves in a very risky position.

noaani wrote: »

XLGames are at a point now where they are unable to alter the 5 or 6 main classes that people play in that game, because people would rather leave the game than attempt to find a new workable build.

The game is at a complete and perpetual standstill.

Now this is an issue worth noting I apologise because my opinion earlier is based on pure speculation o holds no sway. Maybe a fix for this is to have an always evolving meta, but that does cause issues because we don't have metrics to evaluate the evolving meta, and will just be annoying.

But if IS is balancing combat on group combat and the interlinking of various classes and specialisation (for example you build your character to counter specific builds and there is counter to every build, aka: anti mage tank, anti assassin cleric, anti debuff bard, so on and so forth).
Maybe they can make a place for each class within the meta with hard and soft counters for all builds.

I think during the alphas and betas we will see if it is viable to have outlier classes that force people to consider whether using the 'best build' as dictated by the current meta is going to have a higher amount of people playing counters to that specific build. this kind of dynamic may make a shifting meta required. this is in relation to pvp and pve is a different issue all together but if pve is open world then pvp may be a requirement. (p.s. that is more of an issue relating to metas not ACTs)

This discussion is just going in circles

So maybe we should try moving the discussion into what those kind issues that could spawn from having no ACT, and see if people can come up with solutions to those issues. try and make this productive.

some notable ACT problems that I've seen mentioned
star indicates that it has potential to happen with or without a inbuilt ACT

a)* elitism/exclusion.
b) inability evaluate pve performance without ACT.
c)* 3rd party add-on creators making undetectable ACTs that will be used.
d)* stagnating meta from reluctance in deviating from established wisdom .
e) ACT breaks immersion.
f) *potential for classes being excluded due to community established norms .
g) *overabundance of ACT info leads to classes quickly becoming excluded.
h)* people breaking ToS to use an 3rd party ACT if one isn't included.
i) people being forced to use an ACT due to competitive demand.
j) private ACT leads to information being demanded making it redundant.
k) guild ACT (I find this to be one of the best solutions but it does have issues).
l) no ACT leads to raids not being complex enough to be fun. (debatable)
m) *toxic environment.
n) *beginners find it intimidating if asked for full combat stats (barrier to entry).
o) players leaving the game after bans from using 3rd party ACTs.
p) ACTs might ruin the thematic appeal of the game for some people.
q) verifying the viability of builds is difficult. (if builds are situational also a *)
r) DPS yards (these won't really be that helpful in my opinion)

these are issues I see on both sides of the argument its not an exhaustive list but its a start. All of these are pretty legit problems, some from a community side and some from an engineering side.

My final opinion is:
If there is going to be a ban on all ACTs people will need some form of feedback to establish how they rank against other players or there will be a massive portion of the player base using 3rd party ACTs. IS probably cannot ban 30% of their player base for using them if it becomes an established norm.

In the end it is all at the discretion of IS, I hope they can find a solution that can satisfy most peoples needs.

Noaani

ShroudedFox wrote: »

My final opinion is:
If there is going to be a ban on all ACTs people will need some form of feedback to establish how they rank against other players or there will be a massive portion of the player base using 3rd party ACTs. IS probably cannot ban 30% of their player base for using them if it becomes an established norm.

In the end it is all at the discretion of IS, I hope they can find a solution that can satisfy most peoples needs.

This is basically the opinion I have on the matter too, I just consider the notion of a built in combat tracker to be the solution that best fits.

I'll quickly go over my thoughts on the list above.

A. Since this will happen with or without a combat tracker, I don't see why it is an issue in this discussion. While people use combat trackers as a tool in that behavior, there is no reason to think that the presence of a combat tracker increases the occurance of this kind of thing happening.

B. To me, this is one of about five arguments as to why combat trackers should be included as standard in all MMO's.

C. This is inevitable, with or without a built in tracker. All Intrepid can do (and should do, imo) is reduce the attractivness of third party trackers by making a tool built in to the game that serves the desired functions.

D. This is another of the five core arguments as to why a combat tracker should be included as standard.

E. I am all for a combat tracker that only provides information to players upon request, in a specific UI window that can not be open during combat. This would only be achieved with a first party tool, and can still be done in a way where all actual required information is available to players.

F. This will happen with or without combat trackers. Players will post what builds they think are the best, and other players will believe them and use that information to exclude others. None of this requires combat trackers in order for it to happen.

G. Much like F, this will happen regardless of if that information is out there or not. The only difference is, if there are trackers, classes get excluded because they are not up to par, as opposed to because some players think they are not up to par.

H. Knowing the background of some of the people working on trackers right now, I don't think Intrepid would ever be able to detect their work - even if Intrepid had it in their hands to examine. As an aside - based on a potential new method that is being looked at - if Intrepid were determined to keep combat trackers out of the game, they may have to not allow the game to be played on several generations of Intel desktop processors.

I. This is why I would like it to be resctricted to people that are already wanting to compete.

J. Agreed, while the idea was initially good, it doesn't take long to find holes in it that are too large to reconcile.

K. Also agreed. It has issues, but it is the option with the fewest and smallest issues.

L. I would rather use the phrasing "raids not being as complex as would otherwise be possible, which makes them less varied, and thus over all less fun".

M. Ashes is a game where people can kill each other and take their stuff (corruption, caravans). Players can destroy a players town, then rob them of their possessions they have at home. I don't see how someone saying "your DPS is low", even with various adverbs and adjectives added to it, can be considered toxic in that environment.

N. Agreed, another advantage to having it as a guild tool - it is then on guilds to teach players how to use it, as that is the first opportunity players would have had.

O. I don't see this as an issue, see H.

P. The people that this would apply to wouldn't likely be the kind of people that would join a guild that is wanting to take on top end PvE raid encounters.

Q. In terms of PvP, this is true, and will always be true. A combat tracker can give you a really good idea of where the build sits in terms of DPS, survivability, and many other things. If you are making a built to counter a specific build though, the only metric that matters is going out and trying to kill someone playing your target build.

R. I am not sure what these are.

The first 20 or so pages of this thread - which a year ago were two or three separate threads - were basically discussions that bought up most of these issues. It was these issues and the discussion around them that bought the idea of the guild based combat tracker to light. Again, it isn't perfect, but it is better for the majority of players than having no first party tracker, and several completely undetectable third party trackers that players are able to use as they see fit.

I honestly welcome as many people to come up with as many issues as they can see in regards to combat trackers - not so much because I think the proposal that was made many months ago doesn't have holes in it, but because there may be some holes that are able to be plugged.

Bla814

Hi, I'm new to this thread but I've skimmed through about half of it. I haven't really seen this properly adressed so i wanted to get your opinion on this @noaani .

I just cannot agree with the argument that third-party trackers will be an unavoidable part of the game. I'm sure that if some guys can come up with a program to measure player performance, a studio full of developers can think up some ways to counteract this. Of course it all depends on the community, that has to actively report and disencourage this rule-breaking behaviour.

I also don't see how a guild based dps-meter is better for the majority of players. Do we have any information about the percentage of players that are for/against combat trackers? All I have seen was a small poll on reddit, that showed 55% against them. Subjecting the majority of players to a tool that negatively affects their gameplay experience surely has more possible downsides for them, than having some top players use forbidden third-party trackers to gain a competitive edge.

Nixal

Did anyone create a poll on that matter? Could be quite interesting to see how many support either way.

[ ] I don't care
[ ] I want a DPS Meter
[ ] I don't want a DPS Meter

Noaani

Bla814 wrote: »

I just cannot agree with the argument that third-party trackers will be an unavoidable part of the game. I'm sure that if some guys can come up with a program to measure player performance, a studio full of developers can think up some ways to counteract this

If "some guys" come up with it, sure.

The people building one of the two tools that I am following though are - between them - working at the forefront of various aspects of computer security.

I would happily put my money on them over a dedicated IT security firm (or, like, Intel). I don't consider a company that specalizes in making games to have any real shot, to be perfectly honest.

Noaani

Nixal wrote: »

Did anyone create a poll on that matter? Could be quite interesting to see how many support either way.

[ ] I don't care
[ ] I want a DPS Meter
[ ] I don't want a DPS Meter

The problem with polls is the lack of coverage.

Player generated polls get a few dozen people, at the most.

Developer polls get a few thousand.

Nixal

I agree that it should be an official poll. The next question would be if it makes sense to do such a poll now or later.

Noaani

Nixal wrote: »

I agree that it should be an official poll. The next question would be if it makes sense to do such a poll now or later.

Much like the multiboxing poll, it makes no sense to do it while people are still in a WoW mindset.

The number of people that voted in that poll based on not wanting 40 player botters in Ashes - desipite Intrepid outright saying botting is not an option - is disapointing.

lyrah

Imagine how frustrating it would be to have challenging PvE content, wipe, and have no way to evaluate what went wrong or who underperformed to try and fix it.

I'm okay with content that is designed to be casual or almost as a tutorial (dungeons, leveling, professions, etc.) to not have some evaluation metric since I understand that "elitism" should be avoided in content that was never really designed to be a challenge, but I think you can't have any meaningful challenge and withdraw that kind of information.

smithk

I could see an argument for not having one built in-game for the sake of saving dev resources (i.e. rely on ye 'ol playerbase to fill the DPS metter gap because the majority of players would prefer the devs put time into something they care about more), but if any content is going to have tight DPS checks then the players will find a way to measure performance. Even if the studio manages to keep up with banning people using 3rd party tools to measure it, people will swap to other forms (e.g. do you have X title from the last hard fight, or can you kill this mob in X seconds?).

If people are afraid of meters because they're afraid it will gate them from raids...I'm sorry to break it to you, but if they're actually really hard it's unlikely you're going to be able to slip in and get carried regardless of if they have a built in meter. You have to pull your own weight in challenging content because nobody wants to spend tens/hundreds of hours dying to stuff because some players think they should be able to play all content without putting in the necessary effort.

That being said I do think people using it to bash other players should be heavily punished. Reforming the group without a player or two because they can't pull their weight is fine (or better yet giving them some feedback around their numbers) as long as it's done in a cordial way, but if anyone resorts to insulting/belittling people over it then punish them. The only downside to this is the game needs enough staff to handle tickets generated for this and they need to be willing to punish players who cross lines.

Child Item