I really enjoy a dps meter. I understand if AoC isn't keen on implementing them themselves. I hope and am optimistic that someone ( with more talent than I ) will make a meter that we can use outside but in conjunction with the game. -- I believe the majority of people that like meters are not egotistical monsters that want to make others feel bad; they just want to improve their own performance and be able to help others that seek help.
Edit: However I hope running such a "program" in the background isn't a bannable offense. Like many things, in the wrong hands, anything can be destructive. A don't ask, don't tell policy maybe? If someone uses the program to harass others, by all means, bring forth your wrath upon them Intrepid!
WoW - high toxicity, high combat tracker.
Archeage - high toxicity, low combat tracker.
EQ2 - low toxicity, high combat tracker.
I think the main point about a toxicity playerbase is the game itself and not about elite players wich can different themself with help of dps meter or other performance recording addons.
If you got a game where its important to have releations and conversations with other players because of
- importance of people with other professions
- trades/ trade agreements/ trade routes
- working together to build somthing (nodes)
- difficult parts in the game
- just have to ask for directions
you will have a healthy playerbase and a community thats not toxic and everyone has possible interactions with groups of people where they belong to. So you will do fine in the game as long you have people wich you can play it with. So everyone could decide for themself if they want to play more or less elit with importance on dps meters or not. Most of the time the elites are the first to clear a content but not the only ones, if you dont have to be one of the first why would you care.
Maybe you will need a synergy of people in a node wich have fun with building and farming stuff, people who can perform realy well in pve and people who are crazy good at pvp.
WoW - high toxicity, high combat tracker.
Archeage - high toxicity, low combat tracker.
EQ2 - low toxicity, high combat tracker.
I think the main point about a toxicity playerbase is the game itself and not about elite players wich can different themself with help of dps meter or other performance recording addons.
If you got a game where its important to have releations and conversations with other players because of
- importance of people with other professions
- trades/ trade agreements/ trade routes
- working together to build somthing (nodes)
- difficult parts in the game
- just have to ask for directions
you will have a healthy playerbase and a community thats not toxic and everyone has possible interactions with groups of people where they belong to. So you will do fine in the game as long you have people wich you can play it with. So everyone could decide for themself if they want to play more or less elit with importance on dps meters or not. Most of the time the elites are the first to clear a content but not the only ones, if you dont have to be one of the first why would you care.
Maybe you will need a synergy of people in a node wich have fun with building and farming stuff, people who can perform realy well in pve and people who are crazy good at pvp.
Completely agree, it is one of the things I have been saying in this thread for a year or so now.
The major thing though, that you do seem to be missing, is having relationships in game for people to actually run content with.
In a game like Archeage or WoW (the two most toxic communities that I am aware of), there are systems in place where people can automatically join groups for most content that most players will run.
This means inter-personal relationships in the game - or lack thereof - has no real meaning. In WoW, even if everyone on your server hates you, you can still run dungeons. In Archeage, you can still do the various events that make up the bulk of that games content.
The ability to teleport a player directly to the group is also a fantastic tool to aid in toxic behavior. If you are running a dungeon and decide one of your group isn't doing as well as you would like, in WoW it is really easy to get that player replaced. In most other games, you would need to wait for that player to reach the dungeon entrance, which could take a while (depending on the game).
The longer it takes to get that player in, and the harder it is, the less likely you are to try and replace a group member.
This is why I think the family summons ability will do more to promote a toxic environment in Ashes than a combat tracker ever will - which again goes to why the potential for toxicity simply doesn't hold up as a reason to not add this to the games client.
Do you know what creates toxicity? The ability to loose loot - without DPS meters there will be the same toxicity, but more blindly aimed. People will figure out the meta pretty soon, unless Intrepid will actively take down guides from the internet.
Just go into wiki or watch the interview it was mentioned in - based on the performace the loot tables will improve - trying to blind the players with not allowing dps meters is just going to create more finger pointing and more toxicity, because identifying the problem is just going to be much harder. And don't forget that most of loosely formed guilds have a lot of players that think they can't do wrong and will blame anything else
Do you know what creates toxicity? The ability to loose loot - without DPS meters there will be the same toxicity, but more blindly aimed. People will figure out the meta pretty soon, unless Intrepid will actively take down guides from the internet.
Oh this is absolutely true.
WIthout a combat tracker, any toxicity that does exist (and of course there will be *some*) will be attributed completely blindly, with the recipient never being in a position to be able to do anything at all about it.
With combat trackers, at least any blame that people will want to place on others can be done so in the right place, and those peple can then consider themselves in a position where they can actually do something about it if they wish.
That is actually a good point about the loot system - that is going to cause more toxicity than combat trackers as well - and that has the real potential to be intra-guild toxicity, something no other MMO has had to deal with.
Do you know what creates toxicity? The ability to loose loot - without DPS meters there will be the same toxicity, but more blindly aimed. People will figure out the meta pretty soon, unless Intrepid will actively take down guides from the internet.
Just go into wiki or watch the interview it was mentioned in - based on the performace the loot tables will improve - trying to blind the players with not allowing dps meters is just going to create more finger pointing and more toxicity, because identifying the problem is just going to be much harder. And don't forget that most of loosely formed guilds have a lot of players that think they can't do wrong and will blame anything else
But the Topic Loot is not conditionally linked with a dps Meter.
If there is personal Loot like in WoW retail, it wouldn´t be a Problem like you mentioned by you. Just one possible Solution
If the loot get diced it is also already regulated, like in all other games there is an agreement at the beginning of the journey, if there are toxicity in the middle or the end you just have to find other people to play with.
People will always throught a fit, you have to find same minded people to have success/fun
Maybe I'm too optimistic, but i would assume that the fingerpointing decreases if there is no specific data you can point at. You gotta prove that someone is not performing, right? Without any evidence, it's just a random accusation.
A couple of players performing subpar in terms of dps or hps is rarely the reason for wiping anyway. People constantly failing mechanics is a much bigger problem and you can still identify those guys. It's just harder without an addon that does it for you. I feel like removing damage meters is Stevens attempt to steer player behaviour to a more team-oriented playstyle.
A couple of players performing subpar in terms of dps or hps is rarely the reason for wiping anyway.
This is not about wiping at all, because the difficulty and loot is based on how good your group has been on the first boss, so if you have people that just suck and dont do reasonable damage then you can't be surprised if the loot from last boss is actual dogshit or dragonshit or lamashit (or whatever the Rock cooked)
Maybe I'm too optimistic, but i would assume that the fingerpointing decreases if there is no specific data you can point at. You gotta prove that someone is not performing, right? Without any evidence, it's just a random accusation.
It would be nice if people worked this way, I agree.
The problem is, it isn't the data pointing fingers, it is people. If you have the type of person that would point a finger at a person, then they don't need hard data to do that. All they need is a reason.
The only thing data will do is potentially point that finger at the right person - but even then it is hindered by that finger pointing persons understanding of that data.
If there is personal Loot like in WoW retail, it wouldn´t be a Problem like you mentioned by you. Just one possible Solution
I'm not a fan of this at all.
It takes the idea of a raid from going out and trying to get some better equipment for the raid, to one of going out and trying to get better equipment for yourself.
While this may seem small, it is a change from the raid being there for the raid, to the raid being there for the individual. It creates a shift in player thinking in regards to the raid.
Now, I can see an argument for this kind of loot system for pick up raids, but it is destructive to guilds.
I personally would rather a game like Ashes put guilds above pick up raids, even if a game like WoW doesn't.
Personal loot if Ashes is straight up impossible to work
reason is that you need master crafters to get the loot in the first place and the drop of actual completed items is supposed to be quite small, because majority will come from the harvested materials etc
I think my point still holds some truth. First off, we don't know what exactly influences the increasing difficulty of consecutive raid bosses. Damage will probably be one factor, but it could also be based on how well the mechanics are handled. I doubt that the dps-checks will be so tight, that a couple of people not performing well makes the difference. That wouldnt make sense from a design perspective for a game that isnt based around combat-trackers.
I agree with you there, because if the minimal loot is quite good and the increased loot from doing better is barely noticable then yeah - dps is irrelevant and it will all come down to having people that can dodge shit on the ground or flying at them
The problem is, it isn't the data pointing fingers, it is people. If you have the type of person that would point a finger at a person, then they don't need hard data to do that. All they need is a reason.
I don't see how that would work out though. What's gonna happen if I say that player X sucks? He responds that he doesnt suck, or goes even one step further and says that I myself suck. You wont achieve anything by attacking others, because you cant prove that you are right about them. All you have as an argument is that someone is playing an off-meta class. With the wide variety of archetype-combinations I would assume that half your raid is probably playing a sub-optimal specc. Especially with the lack of meters that constantly show them how they're performing slightly worse than the perfect build.
I realize that I might have a naive view on the subject. I just dont think we should give up on this way of improving player behaviour before we even try. A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?
I realize that I might have a naive view on the subject. I just dont think we should give up on this way of improving player behaviour before we even try. A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?
Depends on the baseline difficulty and the extra rewards from doing better. The lower the baseline difficulty then more the raid itself is a reward for itself for gathering the whole group into that place.
As for the extra rewards for doing better is a big question, because if the extra rewards will just give more wealth, then it might be just a question if it is beneficial to do something else to achieve that wealth instead of making your character as strong as possible. On the other hand if the extra rewards give extra bonus power to the raid, then with it comes a certain prestige as well making the raids a bit easier for the better equipped raid next time, to push for even better rewards.
If there is personal Loot like in WoW retail, it wouldn´t be a Problem like you mentioned by you. Just one possible Solution
I'm not a fan of this at all.
It takes the idea of a raid from going out and trying to get some better equipment for the raid, to one of going out and trying to get better equipment for yourself.
While this may seem small, it is a change from the raid being there for the raid, to the raid being there for the individual. It creates a shift in player thinking in regards to the raid.
Now, I can see an argument for this kind of loot system for pick up raids, but it is destructive to guilds.
I personally would rather a game like Ashes put guilds above pick up raids, even if a game like WoW doesn't.
I think you forget that the word "personal loot" also can have diffrent mechanics.
For example the Item you optain can be trated afterwards for 2 hours.
The Basic for Group loot and personal loot can be handelt exacty the same:
1. Items drops
2. group/raid rolls
3. a person gets the item
1. the systems rolls hidden who can loot the mob
2. you can give the item away if you want to
the difference is just that the group as one cant decide if a singel person wants to pass on an item at the start.
If there is a Problem with the decision about the item afterwards the Raid/Guild/Player has to find other People to play with.
I don't see how that would work out though. What's gonna happen if I say that player X sucks? He responds that he doesnt suck, or goes even one step further and says that I myself suck. You wont achieve anything by attacking others, because you cant prove that you are right about them. All you have as an argument is that someone is playing an off-meta class. With the wide variety of archetype-combinations I would assume that half your raid is probably playing a sub-optimal specc. Especially with the lack of meters that constantly show them how they're performing slightly worse than the perfect build.
You are assuming that we are talking about two people with the same personalities, who are both more than willing to stand up and shout at each other (in an online capacity).
That isn't how things go in these situations. Without data, people are free to blame who ever they want, and they generally pick people they assume won't fight back. This is why the timid, the meek and the shy generally have a hard time in online games - as they are easy targets for anyone that has no data.
A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?
This is a stance I agree with.
Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.
That is exatly what Ashes is doing.
If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.
I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...
Personal loot if Ashes is straight up impossible to work
reason is that you need master crafters to get the loot in the first place and the drop of actual completed items is supposed to be quite small, because majority will come from the harvested materials etc
your assumption is that every loot is bound to the one who picks it up. Is it like that in the actual game?
If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.
I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...
From what they said about this topic I understand that they won't be as much trying to break the functionality of such tools, but more likely just detect the use of them and banning people for it
The problem is, it isn't the data pointing fingers, it is people. If you have the type of person that would point a finger at a person, then they don't need hard data to do that. All they need is a reason.
I don't see how that would work out though. What's gonna happen if I say that player X sucks? He responds that he doesnt suck, or goes even one step further and says that I myself suck. You wont achieve anything by attacking others, because you cant prove that you are right about them. All you have as an argument is that someone is playing an off-meta class. With the wide variety of archetype-combinations I would assume that half your raid is probably playing a sub-optimal specc. Especially with the lack of meters that constantly show them how they're performing slightly worse than the perfect build.
I realize that I might have a naive view on the subject. I just dont think we should give up on this way of improving player behaviour before we even try. A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?
I agree with you that the people have a harder time to shift the blame on specific players. They dont have hard facts and no one yet knows what support skills will be available and how strong they are to the group. You cant even tell wich Class brings the least to your current group constellation.
So you dont argue against personal dps Meters, right?
If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.
I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...
From what they said about this topic I understand that they won't be as much trying to break the functionality of such tools, but more likely just detect the use of them and banning people for it
All that has been said so far is that they are attempting to prevent most means of gathering data. They have not said anything about account bans - although I would be foolish if I didn't plan on that being a possibility.
If that is what they want to do though, all I can say is - best of luck to them.
What if it only showed the one that did the most damage to everyone and then each player could see their own damage, that would let people feel acomplished by being the first in damage and would also help the players see if they're behind for a lot or not.
Comments
Could also be the rose collored glasses of nostalgia speaking
Edit: However I hope running such a "program" in the background isn't a bannable offense. Like many things, in the wrong hands, anything can be destructive. A don't ask, don't tell policy maybe? If someone uses the program to harass others, by all means, bring forth your wrath upon them Intrepid!
While I would be fine with that, it seems to be exactly what many players specifically do not want to see.
No it doesn't.
If it did, we would see this in every game with a combat tracker, and that isn't the case.
I think the main point about a toxicity playerbase is the game itself and not about elite players wich can different themself with help of dps meter or other performance recording addons.
If you got a game where its important to have releations and conversations with other players because of
- importance of people with other professions
- trades/ trade agreements/ trade routes
- working together to build somthing (nodes)
- difficult parts in the game
- just have to ask for directions
you will have a healthy playerbase and a community thats not toxic and everyone has possible interactions with groups of people where they belong to. So you will do fine in the game as long you have people wich you can play it with. So everyone could decide for themself if they want to play more or less elit with importance on dps meters or not. Most of the time the elites are the first to clear a content but not the only ones, if you dont have to be one of the first why would you care.
Maybe you will need a synergy of people in a node wich have fun with building and farming stuff, people who can perform realy well in pve and people who are crazy good at pvp.
Completely agree, it is one of the things I have been saying in this thread for a year or so now.
The major thing though, that you do seem to be missing, is having relationships in game for people to actually run content with.
In a game like Archeage or WoW (the two most toxic communities that I am aware of), there are systems in place where people can automatically join groups for most content that most players will run.
This means inter-personal relationships in the game - or lack thereof - has no real meaning. In WoW, even if everyone on your server hates you, you can still run dungeons. In Archeage, you can still do the various events that make up the bulk of that games content.
The ability to teleport a player directly to the group is also a fantastic tool to aid in toxic behavior. If you are running a dungeon and decide one of your group isn't doing as well as you would like, in WoW it is really easy to get that player replaced. In most other games, you would need to wait for that player to reach the dungeon entrance, which could take a while (depending on the game).
The longer it takes to get that player in, and the harder it is, the less likely you are to try and replace a group member.
This is why I think the family summons ability will do more to promote a toxic environment in Ashes than a combat tracker ever will - which again goes to why the potential for toxicity simply doesn't hold up as a reason to not add this to the games client.
Tryed to say that with:
So i totally agree with you that the most important thing in a game, are the people you play it with.
Just go into wiki or watch the interview it was mentioned in - based on the performace the loot tables will improve - trying to blind the players with not allowing dps meters is just going to create more finger pointing and more toxicity, because identifying the problem is just going to be much harder. And don't forget that most of loosely formed guilds have a lot of players that think they can't do wrong and will blame anything else
― Plato
WIthout a combat tracker, any toxicity that does exist (and of course there will be *some*) will be attributed completely blindly, with the recipient never being in a position to be able to do anything at all about it.
With combat trackers, at least any blame that people will want to place on others can be done so in the right place, and those peple can then consider themselves in a position where they can actually do something about it if they wish.
That is actually a good point about the loot system - that is going to cause more toxicity than combat trackers as well - and that has the real potential to be intra-guild toxicity, something no other MMO has had to deal with.
But the Topic Loot is not conditionally linked with a dps Meter.
If there is personal Loot like in WoW retail, it wouldn´t be a Problem like you mentioned by you. Just one possible Solution
If the loot get diced it is also already regulated, like in all other games there is an agreement at the beginning of the journey, if there are toxicity in the middle or the end you just have to find other people to play with.
People will always throught a fit, you have to find same minded people to have success/fun
A couple of players performing subpar in terms of dps or hps is rarely the reason for wiping anyway. People constantly failing mechanics is a much bigger problem and you can still identify those guys. It's just harder without an addon that does it for you. I feel like removing damage meters is Stevens attempt to steer player behaviour to a more team-oriented playstyle.
This is not about wiping at all, because the difficulty and loot is based on how good your group has been on the first boss, so if you have people that just suck and dont do reasonable damage then you can't be surprised if the loot from last boss is actual dogshit or dragonshit or lamashit (or whatever the Rock cooked)
― Plato
The problem is, it isn't the data pointing fingers, it is people. If you have the type of person that would point a finger at a person, then they don't need hard data to do that. All they need is a reason.
The only thing data will do is potentially point that finger at the right person - but even then it is hindered by that finger pointing persons understanding of that data.
It takes the idea of a raid from going out and trying to get some better equipment for the raid, to one of going out and trying to get better equipment for yourself.
While this may seem small, it is a change from the raid being there for the raid, to the raid being there for the individual. It creates a shift in player thinking in regards to the raid.
Now, I can see an argument for this kind of loot system for pick up raids, but it is destructive to guilds.
I personally would rather a game like Ashes put guilds above pick up raids, even if a game like WoW doesn't.
reason is that you need master crafters to get the loot in the first place and the drop of actual completed items is supposed to be quite small, because majority will come from the harvested materials etc
― Plato
I think my point still holds some truth. First off, we don't know what exactly influences the increasing difficulty of consecutive raid bosses. Damage will probably be one factor, but it could also be based on how well the mechanics are handled. I doubt that the dps-checks will be so tight, that a couple of people not performing well makes the difference. That wouldnt make sense from a design perspective for a game that isnt based around combat-trackers.
― Plato
I don't see how that would work out though. What's gonna happen if I say that player X sucks? He responds that he doesnt suck, or goes even one step further and says that I myself suck. You wont achieve anything by attacking others, because you cant prove that you are right about them. All you have as an argument is that someone is playing an off-meta class. With the wide variety of archetype-combinations I would assume that half your raid is probably playing a sub-optimal specc. Especially with the lack of meters that constantly show them how they're performing slightly worse than the perfect build.
I realize that I might have a naive view on the subject. I just dont think we should give up on this way of improving player behaviour before we even try. A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?
Depends on the baseline difficulty and the extra rewards from doing better. The lower the baseline difficulty then more the raid itself is a reward for itself for gathering the whole group into that place.
As for the extra rewards for doing better is a big question, because if the extra rewards will just give more wealth, then it might be just a question if it is beneficial to do something else to achieve that wealth instead of making your character as strong as possible. On the other hand if the extra rewards give extra bonus power to the raid, then with it comes a certain prestige as well making the raids a bit easier for the better equipped raid next time, to push for even better rewards.
― Plato
I think you forget that the word "personal loot" also can have diffrent mechanics.
For example the Item you optain can be trated afterwards for 2 hours.
The Basic for Group loot and personal loot can be handelt exacty the same:
1. Items drops
2. group/raid rolls
3. a person gets the item
1. the systems rolls hidden who can loot the mob
2. you can give the item away if you want to
the difference is just that the group as one cant decide if a singel person wants to pass on an item at the start.
If there is a Problem with the decision about the item afterwards the Raid/Guild/Player has to find other People to play with.
That isn't how things go in these situations. Without data, people are free to blame who ever they want, and they generally pick people they assume won't fight back. This is why the timid, the meek and the shy generally have a hard time in online games - as they are easy targets for anyone that has no data. This is a stance I agree with.
Every MMO in history has had no combat tracker built in, and people have built one for all of them.
That is exatly what Ashes is doing.
If you want something different, the only option is to build one in with restrictions. Not having a combat tracker in Ashes is not an option, as they will be available before the game even goes live.
I mean, there is a saying about people expecting a different result from the same actions...
your assumption is that every loot is bound to the one who picks it up. Is it like that in the actual game?
From what they said about this topic I understand that they won't be as much trying to break the functionality of such tools, but more likely just detect the use of them and banning people for it
― Plato
I agree with you that the people have a harder time to shift the blame on specific players. They dont have hard facts and no one yet knows what support skills will be available and how strong they are to the group. You cant even tell wich Class brings the least to your current group constellation.
So you dont argue against personal dps Meters, right?
If that is what they want to do though, all I can say is - best of luck to them.
― Plato
There are better systems for pick ups, and there are better systems for guild raids. To me, this kind of system has no merit.