DPS Meter Megathread

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Ardi

Qweick wrote: »

I feel like MMOs were more fun before DPS meters went mainstream.

Could also be the rose collored glasses of nostalgia speaking

Patch

I really enjoy a dps meter. I understand if AoC isn't keen on implementing them themselves. I hope and am optimistic that someone ( with more talent than I ) will make a meter that we can use outside but in conjunction with the game. -- I believe the majority of people that like meters are not egotistical monsters that want to make others feel bad; they just want to improve their own performance and be able to help others that seek help.

Edit: However I hope running such a "program" in the background isn't a bannable offense. Like many things, in the wrong hands, anything can be destructive. A don't ask, don't tell policy maybe? If someone uses the program to harass others, by all means, bring forth your wrath upon them Intrepid!

Noaani

Patch wrote: »

A don't ask, don't tell policy maybe?

That is honestly the best Ashes could do with the trackers being built now.

While I would be fine with that, it seems to be exactly what many players specifically do not want to see.

EMT

Private DPS meter. The issue with public is it always leads to a messy elitism every time. This isn't WOW so lets keep it from becoming a WOW.

Noaani

EMT wrote: »

Private DPS meter. The issue with public is it always leads to a messy elitism every time.

No it doesn't.

If it did, we would see this in every game with a combat tracker, and that isn't the case.

Nastyone

noaani wrote: »

WoW - high toxicity, high combat tracker.
Archeage - high toxicity, low combat tracker.
EQ2 - low toxicity, high combat tracker.

I think the main point about a toxicity playerbase is the game itself and not about elite players wich can different themself with help of dps meter or other performance recording addons.

If you got a game where its important to have releations and conversations with other players because of
- importance of people with other professions
- trades/ trade agreements/ trade routes
- working together to build somthing (nodes)
- difficult parts in the game
- just have to ask for directions
you will have a healthy playerbase and a community thats not toxic and everyone has possible interactions with groups of people where they belong to. So you will do fine in the game as long you have people wich you can play it with. So everyone could decide for themself if they want to play more or less elit with importance on dps meters or not. Most of the time the elites are the first to clear a content but not the only ones, if you dont have to be one of the first why would you care.
Maybe you will need a synergy of people in a node wich have fun with building and farming stuff, people who can perform realy well in pve and people who are crazy good at pvp.

Noaani

Nastyone wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

WoW - high toxicity, high combat tracker.
Archeage - high toxicity, low combat tracker.
EQ2 - low toxicity, high combat tracker.

I think the main point about a toxicity playerbase is the game itself and not about elite players wich can different themself with help of dps meter or other performance recording addons.

If you got a game where its important to have releations and conversations with other players because of
- importance of people with other professions
- trades/ trade agreements/ trade routes
- working together to build somthing (nodes)
- difficult parts in the game
- just have to ask for directions
you will have a healthy playerbase and a community thats not toxic and everyone has possible interactions with groups of people where they belong to. So you will do fine in the game as long you have people wich you can play it with. So everyone could decide for themself if they want to play more or less elit with importance on dps meters or not. Most of the time the elites are the first to clear a content but not the only ones, if you dont have to be one of the first why would you care.
Maybe you will need a synergy of people in a node wich have fun with building and farming stuff, people who can perform realy well in pve and people who are crazy good at pvp.

Completely agree, it is one of the things I have been saying in this thread for a year or so now.

The major thing though, that you do seem to be missing, is having relationships in game for people to actually run content with.

In a game like Archeage or WoW (the two most toxic communities that I am aware of), there are systems in place where people can automatically join groups for most content that most players will run.

This means inter-personal relationships in the game - or lack thereof - has no real meaning. In WoW, even if everyone on your server hates you, you can still run dungeons. In Archeage, you can still do the various events that make up the bulk of that games content.

The ability to teleport a player directly to the group is also a fantastic tool to aid in toxic behavior. If you are running a dungeon and decide one of your group isn't doing as well as you would like, in WoW it is really easy to get that player replaced. In most other games, you would need to wait for that player to reach the dungeon entrance, which could take a while (depending on the game).

The longer it takes to get that player in, and the harder it is, the less likely you are to try and replace a group member.

This is why I think the family summons ability will do more to promote a toxic environment in Ashes than a combat tracker ever will - which again goes to why the potential for toxicity simply doesn't hold up as a reason to not add this to the games client.

Nastyone

noaani wrote: »

The major thing though, that you do seem to be missing, is having relationships in game for people to actually run content with.

Tryed to say that with:

Nastyone wrote: »

So you will do fine in the game as long you have people wich you can play it with.

So i totally agree with you that the most important thing in a game, are the people you play it with.

Tragnar

Do you know what creates toxicity? The ability to loose loot - without DPS meters there will be the same toxicity, but more blindly aimed. People will figure out the meta pretty soon, unless Intrepid will actively take down guides from the internet.

Just go into wiki or watch the interview it was mentioned in - based on the performace the loot tables will improve - trying to blind the players with not allowing dps meters is just going to create more finger pointing and more toxicity, because identifying the problem is just going to be much harder. And don't forget that most of loosely formed guilds have a lot of players that think they can't do wrong and will blame anything else

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

Do you know what creates toxicity? The ability to loose loot - without DPS meters there will be the same toxicity, but more blindly aimed. People will figure out the meta pretty soon, unless Intrepid will actively take down guides from the internet.

Oh this is absolutely true.

WIthout a combat tracker, any toxicity that does exist (and of course there will be *some*) will be attributed completely blindly, with the recipient never being in a position to be able to do anything at all about it.

With combat trackers, at least any blame that people will want to place on others can be done so in the right place, and those peple can then consider themselves in a position where they can actually do something about it if they wish.

That is actually a good point about the loot system - that is going to cause more toxicity than combat trackers as well - and that has the real potential to be intra-guild toxicity, something no other MMO has had to deal with.

Nastyone

Tragnar wrote: »

Do you know what creates toxicity? The ability to loose loot - without DPS meters there will be the same toxicity, but more blindly aimed. People will figure out the meta pretty soon, unless Intrepid will actively take down guides from the internet.

Just go into wiki or watch the interview it was mentioned in - based on the performace the loot tables will improve - trying to blind the players with not allowing dps meters is just going to create more finger pointing and more toxicity, because identifying the problem is just going to be much harder. And don't forget that most of loosely formed guilds have a lot of players that think they can't do wrong and will blame anything else

But the Topic Loot is not conditionally linked with a dps Meter.

If there is personal Loot like in WoW retail, it wouldn´t be a Problem like you mentioned by you. Just one possible Solution
If the loot get diced it is also already regulated, like in all other games there is an agreement at the beginning of the journey, if there are toxicity in the middle or the end you just have to find other people to play with.

People will always throught a fit, you have to find same minded people to have success/fun

Bla814

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but i would assume that the fingerpointing decreases if there is no specific data you can point at. You gotta prove that someone is not performing, right? Without any evidence, it's just a random accusation.

A couple of players performing subpar in terms of dps or hps is rarely the reason for wiping anyway. People constantly failing mechanics is a much bigger problem and you can still identify those guys. It's just harder without an addon that does it for you. I feel like removing damage meters is Stevens attempt to steer player behaviour to a more team-oriented playstyle.

Tragnar

Bla814 wrote: »

A couple of players performing subpar in terms of dps or hps is rarely the reason for wiping anyway.

This is not about wiping at all, because the difficulty and loot is based on how good your group has been on the first boss, so if you have people that just suck and dont do reasonable damage then you can't be surprised if the loot from last boss is actual dogshit or dragonshit or lamashit (or whatever the Rock cooked)

Noaani

Bla814 wrote: »

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but i would assume that the fingerpointing decreases if there is no specific data you can point at. You gotta prove that someone is not performing, right? Without any evidence, it's just a random accusation.

It would be nice if people worked this way, I agree.

The problem is, it isn't the data pointing fingers, it is people. If you have the type of person that would point a finger at a person, then they don't need hard data to do that. All they need is a reason.

The only thing data will do is potentially point that finger at the right person - but even then it is hindered by that finger pointing persons understanding of that data.

Noaani

Nastyone wrote: »

If there is personal Loot like in WoW retail, it wouldn´t be a Problem like you mentioned by you. Just one possible Solution

I'm not a fan of this at all.

It takes the idea of a raid from going out and trying to get some better equipment for the raid, to one of going out and trying to get better equipment for yourself.

While this may seem small, it is a change from the raid being there for the raid, to the raid being there for the individual. It creates a shift in player thinking in regards to the raid.

Now, I can see an argument for this kind of loot system for pick up raids, but it is destructive to guilds.

I personally would rather a game like Ashes put guilds above pick up raids, even if a game like WoW doesn't.

Tragnar

Personal loot if Ashes is straight up impossible to work

reason is that you need master crafters to get the loot in the first place and the drop of actual completed items is supposed to be quite small, because majority will come from the harvested materials etc

Bla814

@Tragnar

I think my point still holds some truth. First off, we don't know what exactly influences the increasing difficulty of consecutive raid bosses. Damage will probably be one factor, but it could also be based on how well the mechanics are handled. I doubt that the dps-checks will be so tight, that a couple of people not performing well makes the difference. That wouldnt make sense from a design perspective for a game that isnt based around combat-trackers.

Tragnar

I agree with you there, because if the minimal loot is quite good and the increased loot from doing better is barely noticable then yeah - dps is irrelevant and it will all come down to having people that can dodge shit on the ground or flying at them

Bla814

noaani wrote: »

The problem is, it isn't the data pointing fingers, it is people. If you have the type of person that would point a finger at a person, then they don't need hard data to do that. All they need is a reason.

I don't see how that would work out though. What's gonna happen if I say that player X sucks? He responds that he doesnt suck, or goes even one step further and says that I myself suck. You wont achieve anything by attacking others, because you cant prove that you are right about them. All you have as an argument is that someone is playing an off-meta class. With the wide variety of archetype-combinations I would assume that half your raid is probably playing a sub-optimal specc. Especially with the lack of meters that constantly show them how they're performing slightly worse than the perfect build.

I realize that I might have a naive view on the subject. I just dont think we should give up on this way of improving player behaviour before we even try. A large portion of the community (including Steven) is apparently unhappy with the current situation. Why not give this a shot and see how it works out?

Marcet

Im just here to say: No dps meters is better, specially at the game's launch.. we will see a year later.

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