With the currently envisioned corruption system, how hard would it be for a Non-PvPer to avoid PvP?

Is the corruption system designed to allow for more peaceful players to thrive? Or just to temper the more extreme / unfair acts of PvP like griefing and low level ganking?

I have a friend who's interest in a lot of the RP and artisan (potat -game) aspects of the game, but does not like PvP at all. I assume everyone will experience some PvP, but to what extent do you think this system will assist players to avoid PvP, if at all?

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Frosty_Tips

IMO they should change that so that if a "non-combatant" attacks a "Combatant" then the "Non-combatant becomes a "Combatant". It doesn't make any sense for them to stay classified as a non-combatant. It's right there in the name itself, the dude is literally swinging a sword killing someone and he still has the title "non-combatant"??? That's the most violent non-combatant i've ever seen! I feel like if someone wants to stay a non-combatant then even if they see a red corrupted player run by they just have to wave at them and let them be, that is the way of the pacifist.

daxiongmao87

loghan wrote: »

IMO they should change that so that if a "non-combatant" attacks a "Combatant" then the "Non-combatant becomes a "Combatant". It doesn't make any sense for them to stay classified as a non-combatant. It's right there in the name itself, the dude is literally swinging a sword killing someone and he still has the title "non-combatant"??? That's the most violent non-combatant i've ever seen! I feel like if someone wants to stay a non-combatant then even if they see a red corrupted player run by they just have to wave at them and let them be, that is the way of the pacifist.

You probably misread the diagram. It says if a non-combatant attacks a combatant, they are flagged as combatant.
The only time they don't turn into a combatant when attacking is if they attack a corrupted.

Warth

Nizzikef wrote: »

As far as I know, the Corruption system is basically a carbon copy of Lineage II's Karma system, which I absolutely love. Aside from one major detail that IMO brings a lot of balance to it. When your corrupted, players who attack you are flagged for combat allowing you to defend yourself and not incur further corruption at least that's what I've gathered from the interviews I've seen, please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's not quite true. @Nizzikef Currently it doesn't work that way. Corrupted can't defend themselves against greens. Steven however knows, what ramifications come with the current status quo. They will keep an eye on that to potentially adjust it for one of the upcoming Alphas, as they know that the current system is troublesome.

That being said I think people are not taking into consideration the limitations and risks that being "corrupted" brings. Not everyone is going to want to go red at the drop of a hat, while others might see no issue with killing you outright so as to not compete for leveling/farming areas. There will probably be dedicated characters for PKing. In L2 they were known as "perma reds" and would generally be high level characters with crap gear they don't care about losing and run around lower level zones terrorizing noobs that have no chance of fighting back. This of course with the intention of never working the karma off, hench perma red. Steven knows all about this and I'm sure will be instituting systems to negate or at least severely limit the idea of a perma red character.

They already do have one system against this. The Stat dampening, that will makes your character close to useless in combat once you accumulate enough corruption.

I've played a lot of MMO's, and honestly, L2 was pretty lax on griefing when it came to PVP, as in there was almost none. You would worry more about people training large groups of mobs on you than unwanted PvP. Players who are in well-established guilds, max level with end game gear will not be trolling around the starter zones killing level 15's, I just don't see it. Rarely will someone engage you in combat unless they have a real reason to. If they do, 90% of the time they are baiting you into attacking them back so they get a free kill, just don't take the bait.

Exactly this. Everybody that played Lineage 2 knows, that the system works for the most part. That reds aren't going to be a rampant thing in the world. Curiously enough, it's the players that don't have any experience with it, that desperately look for a "worry" to overplay, thinking they could incentivize a change within a fundamental game mechanics. Feedback would be so much more useful, if people were to stop fear-mongering and actually gave feedback on topics where they don't have to talk out of their butt.

The first thing I'd listen to, is the WoW Crowd discussing fluidity of movement and combat, since that's something it always excelled in. The one I'd never listen to them about is meaningful open world pvp, as that's something, that hasn't been present in WoW in the past 17 years.

Nizzikef

Atama wrote: »

Nizzikef wrote: »

As far as I know, the Corruption system is basically a carbon copy of Lineage II's Karma system, which I absolutely love. Aside from one major detail that IMO brings a lot of balance to it. When your corrupted, players who attack you are flagged for combat allowing you to defend yourself and not incur further corruption at least that's what I've gathered from the interviews I've seen, please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are. A green player who attacks a red one doesn’t turn purple, they stay green, so if the red player fights back and wins they get more corruption. It doesn’t seem fair but I guess they really want corruption to sting.

See below:

In the left-most diagram, green player attacking red stays green.

I see, so it's actually identical to L2 lol. I thought it would've added an interesting dynamic if they went the other route. I always thought it was cheesy when you killed someone, they shout out your location and everyone drops what they're doing for a zone-wide man hunt.

loghan wrote: »

IMO they should change that so that if a "non-combatant" attacks a "Combatant" then the "Non-combatant becomes a "Combatant". It doesn't make any sense for them to stay classified as a non-combatant. It's right there in the name itself, the dude is literally swinging a sword killing someone and he still has the title "non-combatant"??? That's the most violent non-combatant i've ever seen! I feel like if someone wants to stay a non-combatant then even if they see a red corrupted player run by they just have to wave at them and let them be, that is the way of the pacifist.

Green players do become purple when attacking another purple player.

Warth

loghan wrote: »

IMO they should change that so that if a "non-combatant" attacks a "Combatant" then the "Non-combatant becomes a "Combatant". It doesn't make any sense for them to stay classified as a non-combatant. It's right there in the name itself, the dude is literally swinging a sword killing someone and he still has the title "non-combatant"??? That's the most violent non-combatant i've ever seen! I feel like if someone wants to stay a non-combatant then even if they see a red corrupted player run by they just have to wave at them and let them be, that is the way of the pacifist.

Either this or provide a fourth color. Let's call it orange. It's pretty much:

flagged for Red players as combatant, not for other purples. You don't want a group of purple having the ability to defend a red guy from "greens", that would end up in a bad place as well.
Pretty much how it would work:

A green player initiates an attack on a corrupted -> He becomes orange.
A red player, killing the orange player would not accrue further corruption, as he merely defended himself.
A purple players, killing the orange player would accrue corruption, as the green merely tried to hunt down the red, which the purple one interrupted.
An orange player attack a regular purple would also make him purple
An orange player killing a red player would not give them any corruption (of course).

This is pretty much the System that Lineage 2 was build on from back in days of Ultima Online. Not sure why Lineage 2 got rid of the "personal flag" between an green aggressor and a red defender, but it did indeed spawn a couple of serious problems within Lineage 2.

The fact, that reds were the "punching bags" of all greens on the server made the survival chance for the red extremly low on a proper server. At least in the mid-levels where the population of greens was very high in the farming spots. Which would be the same for AoC, as our Leveling comes to an end at level 50. AoC would be even worse, due to the lack of fast travel and bounty hunters.

This brought the game to the point, where the easiest thing to do was killing yourself upon accruing enough Karma. Getting killed by a friend would at least protect your gear. Even more pressing was, that griefers avoided going red at all costs. They instead kept stealing through last hits and repeatedly poking Greens down to low hp to the point he couldn't properly farm.

Reds need a realistic chance to survive becoming red occasionally. If they don't provide that, then the system will be gamed through friend-killing, suicides or non-lethal griefing.

Warth

Nizzikef wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

Nizzikef wrote: »

As far as I know, the Corruption system is basically a carbon copy of Lineage II's Karma system, which I absolutely love. Aside from one major detail that IMO brings a lot of balance to it. When your corrupted, players who attack you are flagged for combat allowing you to defend yourself and not incur further corruption at least that's what I've gathered from the interviews I've seen, please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are. A green player who attacks a red one doesn’t turn purple, they stay green, so if the red player fights back and wins they get more corruption. It doesn’t seem fair but I guess they really want corruption to sting.

See below:

In the left-most diagram, green player attacking red stays green.

I see, so it's actually identical to L2 lol. I thought it would've added an interesting dynamic if they went the other route. I always thought it was cheesy when you killed someone, they shout out your location and everyone drops what they're doing for a zone-wide man hunt.

Green players do become purple when attacking another purple player.

It is and it won't have a good effect on AoC @Nizzikef . The "green attacks red without flagging" is a serious problem. Steven already is aware of this potential problem and will keep an eye on how it plays out within Ashes. So i'm hopeful that it will see change throughout the alphas.

Nizzikef

I never thought pvp in L2 was toxic in any way @Warth and actually preferred it, how do you think it would negatively affect AoC? Yes it sucks to die to a PKer but that's also the allure of PKing. When you kill someone it has weight, it stings and it's supposed to. To even it out there must be high risk to counter the want to go and PK someone, which is item loss on death. As it was in L2 and how AoC will be, feels pretty balanced. The decision to go red shouldn't be taken lightly, it'll be used as a statement and/or punishment. There will almost always have to be a reason for one player to want to PK another, the risk is too high otherwise. This reason could be something as small as running into someone's room in a dungeon they're farming, getting someone from another guild killed by pulling a mob onto them or just general shit talk. I can think of no scenario in L2 where 2 players who had no prior interaction, passing each other in the world where one would spontaneously start killing the other. It just never happened, unless it was a perma red, dedicated PK character which typically never had any gear above level 20 items..

This system is completely foreign to people who haven't experienced it before. People who play WoW and other faction-based MMOs can only dream of killing obnoxious faction members stealing tags and otherwise acting in a way they wouldn't in front of the opposing faction only because they know they're safe. I can guarantee that people will want to create dedicated characters for killing other players but I'm confident there will be systems in place to curb this.

Like I said previously, we need to wait and see how these systems work in tandem. Yes, he's taking the system from L2 but he's also adding to it.

Warth

Nizzikef wrote: »

I never thought pvp in L2 was toxic in any way @Warth and actually preferred it, how do you think it would negatively affect AoC? Yes it sucks to die to a PKer but that's also the allure of PKing. When you kill someone it has weight, it stings and it's supposed to. To even it out there must be high risk to counter the want to go and PK someone, which is item loss on death. As it was in L2 and how AoC will be, feels pretty balanced. The decision to go red shouldn't be taken lightly, it'll be used as a statement and/or punishment. There will almost always have to be a reason for one player to want to PK another, the risk is too high otherwise. This reason could be something as small as running into someone's room in a dungeon they're farming, getting someone from another guild killed by pulling a mob onto them or just general shit talk. I can think of no scenario in L2 where 2 players who had no prior interaction, passing each other in the world where one would spontaneously start killing the other. It just never happened, unless it was a perma red, dedicated PK character which typically never had any gear above level 20 items..

This system is completely foreign to people who haven't experienced it before. People who play WoW and other faction-based MMOs can only dream of killing obnoxious faction members stealing tags and otherwise acting in a way they wouldn't in front of the opposing faction only because they know they're safe. I can guarantee that people will want to create dedicated characters for killing other players but I'm confident there will be systems in place to curb this.

Like I said previously, we need to wait and see how these systems work in tandem. Yes, he's taking the system from L2 but he's also adding to it.

I never said that it was toxic.
I merely said that "every red becomes a punching bag for greens" won't work in AoC.
In conjunction with the lack of Fast Travel and the bounty hunter tracking system, the chances for a red to survive his corrupted status will be very close to 0. In Lineage 2 you were able to run away, hide and grind through the quiet minutes in another spot to slowly get rid of your Karma. This won't be a thing here as people can track you and you have no realistic way to get to a quiet spot to grind out your corruption.

With red not being survivable, one of 3 things will happen:

only perform killing blows on characters that don't mind dying afterwards. (Thank god for Multiaccounting /s)
grief other players as much as possible without killing them.
utilize a friend or second account to kill you right after you have killed somebody else

The design choice, that 9950 of 10000 player on the server can attack reds, without reds being able to defend themselves is asinine at best. It create an incentive to grief without murder or a incentive to simply suicide once you have killed somebody, as survival simply isn't a realistic option once you turn red. Which, in both cases, creates a poor gameplay loop in itself.

Nizzikef

Warth wrote: »

I never said that it was toxic.
I merely said that "every red becomes a punching bag for greens" won't work in AoC.
In conjunction with the lack of Fast Travel and the bounty hunter tracking system, the chances for a red to survive his corrupted status will be very close to 0. In Lineage 2 you were able to run away, hide and grind through the quiet minutes in another spot to slowly get rid of your Karma. This won't be a thing here as people can track you and you have no realistic way to get to a quiet spot to grind out your corruption.

With red not being survivable, one of 3 things will happen:
only perform killing blows on characters that don't mind dying afterwards. (Thank god for Multiaccounting /s)

grief other players as much as possible without killing them.

utilize a friend or second account to kill you right after you have killed somebody else

The design choice, that 9950 of 10000 player on the server can attack reds, without reds being able to defend themselves is asinine at best. It create an incentive to grief without murder or a incentive to simply suicide once you have killed somebody, as survival simply isn't a realistic option once you turn red. Which, in both cases, creates a poor gameplay loop in itself.

Looking into it, I was surprised at how much information was released on the Bounty Hunter system already. For now it looks like people will need to complete a quest to become a Bounty Hunter which is only available from a stage 4 Military node. Only BHs can see corrupted players on the map. The corruption of the player has to be high enough to appear to BHs. Accuracy of the corrupted player's icon on the BH's map is dependant on how far a player has progressed in the BH system.

Notably, Corrupted players can attack and kill BHs without incurring further corruption. - This is what I heard from one of Steve's Q&A's and misunderstood it.

From what I've read, BHs will need to toggle their ability to track corrupted players (Pathfinding) which comes with a cooldown in between uses and makes them free game for corrupted players.

Now, of course, this doesn't stop a Bounty Hunter from calling out someone's location but unless they're constantly looking at the map or they get some sort of notification there will be a small amount of time for someone to work off their corruption before any BHs are aware.

What I'm not sure on is if BHing will be considered a profession or if anyone and everyone will be able to become BHs...

Zhab

Nizzikef wrote: »

What I'm not sure on is if BHing will be considered a profession or if anyone and everyone will be able to become BHs...

From what I can see professions are very much centered around the "artisan" concept. If you are not gathering, processing or crafting than it probably isn't a profession.

Like owning and running a tavern probably isn't a profession. Cooking the food sold into one however is.

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