3 Little Known, Big Issues From Lineage 2 That Could Make There Way Into Ashes

On a recent Asmongold youtube interview, Steven Sharif said that he's drawing some inspiration from Lineage 2, a wildly successful SE Asian MMO. Only a brave few were able to play Lineage 2 back in the hayday of MMO's circa 2005-2010, and that's because Lineage had an extraordinarily high barrier to entry for the regular 10-17yo western kid. Long story short there was tons of god-tier Korean level grind, lots of cool but very complex systems, high risk vs. reward, and more popular games like WoW shadowed Lineage hugely, especially when it came to just getting started, meeting people, having fun, and getting good.

None the less, Lineage 2 was still a very engaging and esoteric game, especially when played on an NA private server that increased rates to eliminate that grind. There were a few systems in there that made the game compelling and different, and I have a feeling that Steve is going to attempt bring them over to Ashes in an appealing way.

Those systems from Lineage 2 are:

Sieges
Buffing
Enchanting

Sieges

Sieges were a major part the end game pvp content of Lineage, consisting of huge guild vs. guild (100+ players) lagging their way through each other and attempting to conquer each others strongholds through the systems available in the game. They took place in an open world, they were cool for about 5 seconds, and then they turned into a total cluster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2iOwhQ8rwk

The biggest issue with high cap pvp like castle sieges and guild wars is that you can't see the reward of your actions at a glance. You can't tell if you're winning or losing, you lose control of the character that you've been in control of every time you play the game as an individual. It's a boring zerggy mess revealing a shallow numbers game, not a skill based, organizational effort.

A great way to fix this in Ashes is not to just have guild masters flying over the zerg so that they can direct the chaos, but to have the chaos direct itself. There should be 1v1s, 3v3s, 5v5s, 8v8s, encapsulated in the siege that happen dynamically like would happen in some more realistic situation. There should be some separation of all other players in the siege when some number of players have a showdown, activated by having the system understand when a showdown is happening amongst a group. Fog of war made from clashing swords should meld around you as you get locked in combat in an arena style situation within a siege, creating compelling, measurable experiences with between your allys and opponents while still on the context of a large war effort.

Maybe this showdown mechanic is only available at certain stages of the siege to keep pace and actually allow for zerg mechanics to determine stronger force, but one things for sure is that giant battles are comprised of smaller individual showdowns between players and blasting some poor nerds down in a 100v50 battle for hours doesn't allow for any feeling of individuality or reward on either side. In a game, shouldn't there a be a chance for those 50 underdogs to compete by virtue of individual micro skill instead of organization of macro chaos? Just makes sense to me.

Buffing

In Lineage 2, if you went into pve or pvp combat without buffs you were totally combat ineffective. Buff effects from players and other mechanics were so incredible powerful it felt like you were hitting a GMs with godmode on if you were pvping without buffs. This created 2 things: 1. powerful economic sinks into NPCs or player buffer class characters before venturing out of town, and 2. Another zero-skill combat skill mechanic that effected combat.

The approach to buffing should be examined as a compromise between Lineage 2 and Classic WoW's buffing mechanics. If you didn't have dedicate people playing exclusively buffer specced classes in the guild in Lineage you were totally sunk, and if you don't bring a certain buff in Classic WoW you don't really even think about it and keep cruising.

I think Ashes should look into striking this buff balance through both buff effectiveness and access to buffs across NPC buffers, profession effects like potions, individual class buffs, especially since they're balancing for 8v8 pvp situations. One thing's for certain is that there cannot be a dedicated buffer class without at least making this person a competitive healer or tactile controller of some kind. Buffing is so mundane an activity in Lineage that the buffer is almost always off on an alt as they get harangued to help some guildies minmax by providing buffs every 15 minutes or when someone dies.

Enchanting

Enchanting in Lineage 2 was crazy compared to western MMO's. Enchanters would make scrolls that you could imbune on your gear, and the more enchant scrolls you tried to apply to a weapon to get it to +1 +2 +3 etc. the more likely it was that your weapon would break and be deleted from your inventory. And good weapons were very expensive and hard to obtain. Think BIS crafting or raiding in WoW but with about 5x more grind.

Enchanting in Lineage described the ethos of the whole game. Risky, hard, grindy, ridiculous, repetitive, and consequential, but if you were successful you were tremendously successful, and had coveted status and effectiveness in combat. You also got a unique glow on your weapon that symbolized power, and there was really no way to get around the risk of enchanting. You could mitigate weapon break risk with higher tier scrolls, but the risk was always there and in high amounts.

And what's more, a +5 weapons was like a nerfgun compared to a +11. Higher than low double digits and you'd be mad to continue enchanting, unless of course it worked. This slot-machine crafting mechanic that was enchanting in Lineage must exist in the game in some capacity. End game crafting professions simply cannot remain interesting unless there is constant demand for the crafts via the balanced removal of supply.

Simply having gear be able to break down in a real way through durability or enchanting creates a self-sustaining craft economy through the lifespan of a game. And the trade off is being able to take risks and reap the rewards of those risks through gear, which creates a more engaging experience.

Thanks for reading.I listened to that Asmongold interview a few days ago and my mind just started churning when I heard that Steve he had some inspiration from Lineage 2. Wishing Steve and the Intrepid team the best of luck with Ashes of Creation.

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Comments

Vhaeyne

"Feel the bite of failure when you fail."
Every time I hear that clip I get excited. Lineage 2 is in my top 3 favorite MMOs. I am excited to see the spin intrepid puts on these systems.

Jexz

screwtape wrote: »

Taking 6 months to get to max level doesn't mean it has to be a grind. As long as there is content along the way, I could care less if it took 12 months.

What I'd call a grind is if the only thing to do to progress is kill mobs all day because there isn't any level appropriate content.

What's the point of rushing to max level if you skip all of the lower level content? I always find it funny when people rush to max level then complain there isn't enough to do, but they bypassed months worth of lower level content.

I'm that kind of player . I rush to end game , if your focus is pvp it makes sense. The only mmo where I did not have to do this was rift and GW.

Too bad progression through arena probably won't be viable in AoC. hope caravans will be a good substitute. But even for those it would probably behoove me to lvl up first.

Sendbackup

I hope AOC 500x500 battles will not look like a S#&t Show like that. I couldn't tell who was who everyone looked the same just about. Least with wow when you had battles you could easily distinguish who was a foe and who wasn't.

KaelinTV

As someone who played Lineage 2 from Beta, till C3, honestly the best MMORPG I've played. Now I do have a history of Eastern MMO's, L2, Aion, Tera, , BDO, etc. But also western in GW, GW2, ESO, etc. I do admit I tend to like eastern MMORPG's more than western releases, as imo the western mmorpg's now-a-days are just too hand holdy.

Considering Steven's past experience in a wide array of MMO's, I believe will get a nice balance of both styles.

Now in terms of the OP's concerns. Honestly I don't see a big problem with some of them. In terms of sieges, especially later on in the games life, You would literally mostly see just archer/mage front lines poking and killing. Got to the point where the game was min maxed into a mage fest which just took the variety away from the game in class selection. The russian community of L2 is a great example of this. Literally just mage cp's everywhere. L2 was a great game, but it did have a issues like any other.

From what we've seen so far from Ashes in terms of the castle siege system, I don't think we have to worry as much, yet. We just don't have the necessary info, as the castle siege system is still in the works, and the MMORPG will obviously be different from an APOC test. But considering the time to kill structure of the game is longer than L2, I think it will have a nice balanced. Also being WASD and not click to move, will most likely make it a lot better than L2 =P.

In terms of buffing. I agree to you to a certain extent. One, I loved the buffing system in L2. Especially how the buffs were divided up among the other buffer/healer classes in the game. It had an excellent means of forcing people to group for content. The one problem in majority of all MMORPG's now-a-days is the fact that you can just solo most content. Where as my experience in L2, not having a healer, a buffer, a tank, support classes such as BD/SWS, etc. Made the game nearly impossible to play, indeed. But it forced community, constant parties, clans, alliances. It forced people to group up and band together to level and progress. That factor alone forged so many friendships for me over the years from my past L2 days.

Now there was some downsides, such as a prophet literally just being a 20 minute buff peasant, as well as a Root/Sleep and run bot in pvp =P. Would love to see a class that is all support, but with a very active and time critical role in certain support magic in said party. Time will tell how everything breaks down though, but I think Steven will make a nice system already that is a compromise.

In terms of enchanting, I'm totally fine with a little rng. I'm not a fan of rng, but a small amount is perfectly fine to me. When I look at Lineage 2 and compare it to like BDO for example, it just makes me face palm. But no risk at all is just boring and stale. Risk Vs Reward being a strong point of ashes, I was glad to hear that there will be a rng enchanting system, as long as it doesn't lend the way of BDO, and more towards L2's, I'll be happy. I just hope it's not a destruction of said weapon/armor, but more along the lines of breaking said weapon, and would require a large amount of repair mats compared to your standard repairs.

Although there may even be better ideas, looking forward to see what Steven's take on the enchanting system will be.

George_Black

@kamrooz

L2 player here too. I agree with your opinion, except for the buffing thing.
I'll give a quick context for non-l2 players.

In L2 a party HAD to have a "buffer" class, which was different than bards.
A buffer would have to target each player and do a 30s full rotation, to give them around 10 combat buffs that lasted 20minutes. Unless the bufrer was an orc, which would cast all the buffs AoE for the group.
This process would take 5 minutes, every 20 minutes.

Now, why I don't want an L2 buffing scheme in AoC, and I preffer a proximity buff, bard support class for groups (like BD/SwS for those of L2).

Every 20 minutes the group would rest for 3-5 minutes in order for the buffer (or buffers-alts) to buff the group.
This was GREAT for the social aspect of the gameplay, but it became very bad during PvP and raiding, and here is my ONLY PROBLEM with it.

Once a player died(unless blessed) he was out of the combat. That's it, if u die you can't contribute, even if you get rezed by the healer. Why? Because you lost the 10 combat buffs that everybody else around has, whichs makes SO much weaker.
So yeah, I don;t want L2s buffer classes, because I want classes to be STRONG on they own. Bards buffing the group frequently (as opposed to L2 buffers doing so ONCE every 20mins) is so much better.

PS: My second problem is actually more serious, and I can't belie i forgot it.
The L2 buffing system made multiboxing MANDATORY. I used to do it, (manually) like everybody else, but I was feeling like I was playing a strategy game, instead of my character, switching between windows, buffing and switching back.
Ye, I don't want to play multiple characters again in an mmo, and L2 was forcing me to do this.

Dummo

kamrooz wrote: »

In terms of enchanting, I'm totally fine with a little rng. I'm not a fan of rng, but a small amount is perfectly fine to me. When I look at Lineage 2 and compare it to like BDO for example, it just makes me face palm. But no risk at all is just boring and stale. Risk Vs Reward being a strong point of ashes, I was glad to hear that there will be a rng enchanting system, as long as it doesn't lend the way of BDO, and more towards L2's, I'll be happy. I just hope it's not a destruction of said weapon/armor, but more along the lines of breaking said weapon, and would require a large amount of repair mats compared to your standard repairs.

Steven has said if you over-enchant too much the item will be destroyed.

Vhaeyne

@George Black I just spent a good deal of time looking for the quote on the wiki and could not find it. There was a break down of character effectiveness being x%gear x%skill?. What I don't remember seeing is x% food and buff. I would imagine that it is very much lower than l2.

@Rennoc Ladner https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Enchanting It looks like Over-enchanting is in for sure. Just keep in mind that the power scale per successful enchant could be less powerful than L2. I honestly loved the system. Nothing like seeing someone with a insane glow to make me want to grind harder.

awq

I don't know about calling L2's style of enchantment system "progression"...
Up till c6 interlude most people in end game didn't even have the highest grade of items, S-grade, depending on the server.

And even if they did eventually get those hard to get top tier items from expensive crafting (with 66% chance of success if i recall), most people would only safe enchant them to +3 because even at the first risky enchant there's a solid 33% chance your highly expensive top tier item gets disenchanted into crystals.
Or actually fulldropping them from raids or something like that.

A post higher up said smth about ~30% chance of success but im not sure what that referred to.
Afaik fighter weapons had 66.7% chance of success per enchant up till +15 and from there it decreased.
While caster weapons had 50% chance of success, as enchanting them was more rewarding.
Armours I believe had a lot lower chances, even getting a whole armour set to +6 gave a special set bonus and that was HARD, real hard.

So most people would be using safe enchanted gear, while a few might roll with slightly over enchanted weapons to show off, giving slightly more damage which usually wasn't even noticable.
It was mostly a really cool and fun thing to go for to show off while it does indeed increase your damage somewhat.

It kind of adds something to do and go for in end game, but everyone did definitely not try to go for it in L2 on retail/low or perhaps even mid-rate servers.
Calling it progression... idk
I feel like everyone on the server don't need to have the exact best possible attainable gear guaranteed for them with nothing left to play for.

George_Black

Very few people overenchanted in L2.
Most would stop at +6 at B grade gear.
Dualswords had to be +4 for all grades (unsafely, for important reasons), but every other A and S grade item in the game would stay at the safe +3 .

Overenchanting meant bonus atk/defence.
Not worth it. Very high risk, very average returns.

awq

George Black wrote: »

Very few people overenchanted in L2.
Most would stop at +6 at B grade gear.
Dualswords had to be +4 for all grades (unsafely, for important reasons), but every other A and S grade item in the game would stay at the safe +3 .

Overenchanting meant bonus atk/defence.
Not worth it. Very high risk, very average returns.

Dude I loved duals in Lineage... I played duelist for a long time on many servers since it was so damn fun in pvp.
Getting those +4 duals for that passive special ability was so damn nice, especially for S-grade duals.
Most weapon types had to craft their special ability on their weapons, but duals?
Oh no we don't do that here, here... we try to blow them up!
Also... the +6 glow on weapons, and especially on dual swords... daaaaamn it was so nice.

George_Black

awq wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

Very few people overenchanted in L2.
Most would stop at +6 at B grade gear.
Dualswords had to be +4 for all grades (unsafely, for important reasons), but every other A and S grade item in the game would stay at the safe +3 .

Overenchanting meant bonus atk/defence.
Not worth it. Very high risk, very average returns.

Dude I loved duals in Lineage... I played duelist for a long time on many servers since it was so damn fun in pvp.
Getting those +4 duals for that passive special ability was so damn nice, especially for S-grade duals.
Most weapon types had to craft their special ability on their weapons, but duals?
Oh no we don't do that here, here... we try to blow them up!
Also... the +6 glow on weapons, and especially on dual swords... daaaaamn it was so nice.

I hope you didnt start playing glady at c4....................

awq

George Black wrote: »

awq wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

Very few people overenchanted in L2.
Most would stop at +6 at B grade gear.
Dualswords had to be +4 for all grades (unsafely, for important reasons), but every other A and S grade item in the game would stay at the safe +3 .

Overenchanting meant bonus atk/defence.
Not worth it. Very high risk, very average returns.

Dude I loved duals in Lineage... I played duelist for a long time on many servers since it was so damn fun in pvp.
Getting those +4 duals for that passive special ability was so damn nice, especially for S-grade duals.
Most weapon types had to craft their special ability on their weapons, but duals?
Oh no we don't do that here, here... we try to blow them up!
Also... the +6 glow on weapons, and especially on dual swords... daaaaamn it was so nice.

I hope you didnt start playing glady at c4....................

I didn't, why?

Leiloni

Selo wrote: »

I think Steven has to much of nostalgic feeling from Lineage 2 from a zerg guild viewpoint, not remembering that the majority didnt like that kind of content in lineage 2 for the same reasons.

I don't think it was nostalgia. He's also taking a lot of inspiration from ArcheAge which he was hardcoring a few short years ago when he created Intrepid Studios, borne directly out of frustrations with that game.

Rennoc Ladner wrote: »

Sieges

Sieges were a major part the end game pvp content of Lineage, consisting of huge guild vs. guild (100+ players) lagging their way through each other and attempting to conquer each others strongholds through the systems available in the game. They took place in an open world, they were cool for about 5 seconds, and then they turned into a total cluster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2iOwhQ8rwk

The biggest issue with high cap pvp like castle sieges and guild wars is that you can't see the reward of your actions at a glance. You can't tell if you're winning or losing, you lose control of the character that you've been in control of every time you play the game as an individual. It's a boring zerggy mess revealing a shallow numbers game, not a skill based, organizational effort.

A great way to fix this in Ashes is not to just have guild masters flying over the zerg so that they can direct the chaos, but to have the chaos direct itself. There should be 1v1s, 3v3s, 5v5s, 8v8s, encapsulated in the siege that happen dynamically like would happen in some more realistic situation.

No, no, no. Lineage 2 is an old game and other games have done it better. I remember playing Aion 2009-2011 and having a great time at the fort sieges in the Abyss. Sure you had tons of players but we were organized and had objectives and the competition was great (and you could very much tell if you were winning or losing). Maybe you didn't enjoy how Lineage 2 did it but sieges can be a ton of fun when it's done well (I'll say I don't like how GW2 does WvWvW, so this is a game mode that needs to be designed right but that one is also almost entirely due to issues caused by combat design). This game will have plenty of small scale PvP as well so there'll be something for everyone. I think getting rid of sieges, or trying to make it into some sort of small arena style skirmishes will turn away a lot of people that enjoy being part of a larger, organized force and the epic feeling of it all. Plus it's an important element of gameplay because it allows lesser geared or lesser skilled players to join in, whereas a 3v3 excludes them, or even just those without enough confidence.

At the end of the day if I want small scale PvP, I'm not going to join in on a siege and I'll leave it to those who enjoy that. If I want that, I'll try to get in on it. Plain and simple. I find having a well designed siege system is so, so incredibly important and I do not think trying to make it into a bunch of small skirmishes is a good idea. I think that would be a terrible and incredibly short sighted idea. You have to look at the larger picture and how the siege not only fits into the game, but the offering of gameplay types in the game and people that need to be attracted to this community for everything to work in harmony.

Rennoc Ladner wrote: »

Buffing

The approach to buffing should be examined as a compromise between Lineage 2 and Classic WoW's buffing mechanics. If you didn't have dedicate people playing exclusively buffer specced classes in the guild in Lineage you were totally sunk, and if you don't bring a certain buff in Classic WoW you don't really even think about it and keep cruising.

I think Ashes should look into striking this buff balance through both buff effectiveness and access to buffs across NPC buffers, profession effects like potions, individual class buffs, especially since they're balancing for 8v8 pvp situations. One thing's for certain is that there cannot be a dedicated buffer class without at least making this person a competitive healer or tactile controller of some kind. Buffing is so mundane an activity in Lineage that the buffer is almost always off on an alt as they get harangued to help some guildies minmax by providing buffs every 15 minutes or when someone dies.

OK, again, please God no. For one thing, I think NPC buffers and profession effects, as well as non-Bard class buffs should be very, very limited. We have Bards, let's fucking celebrate that another game is trying not only do a support class but do it right! Also, they are not a healer or controller, they're a buff/debuff support class. Cleric is the healer and at best, Bards heals are much, much smaller so offer more overall group support healing. So far we know CC's exist among all the classes so I'm not sure there's going to be one in particular that specializes in it and they've said they want to limit CC chains, so having a controller class wouldn't be something they want anyway.

But again just because Lineage 2 did something poorly, doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It just means they did a shit job and let's acknowledge that and move on. They're designing the game for all 8 archetypes to have a spot in a party and further, we have 4-5 roles so far - tank, healer (Cleric), support (Bard), jack of all trades to fill in the gaps in roles in the party as needed (Summoner) and DPS (everyone else).

I'd look again to Aion as an example of a game that did better (it has some similarities to Lineage 2 but is improved in many ways because NCSoft learned their lesson and this was the next MMO they came out with after that). Chanter was the first support class they came out with and later they introduced Songweaver. But Chanter worked really well because most buffs were short term - they only had 2 long term buffs they could apply to individuals and they were HP/Defense buffs so nothing major - and the Cleric had less powerful versions of those anyway. They had mantras which were toggleable PbAoE auras that would buff anyone in range until they were toggled off and could have 3 on at a time among a wide range of buffs to select from. They had 2 short term ~20 second or so buffs for attack/defense. Their attack chains applied short ~3 second debuffs on the target for each skill. And they had larger, more consequential buffs to use in coordination with the team during important moments on ~10 min CDs. They also had small off-healing and DPS capabilities.

The buffs weren't so overpowered that you couldn't have a group without them - you could solo without them (and as I said, only the 2 HP/Defense buffs could even be had without the Chanter in party) and while having a Chanter in party was ideal, they could be replaced with another DPS if need be and you were still fine. Not only were the buffs not overpowered and the Class preferred but not necessary, but the skills themselves required the player to be in the thick of battle, making moment to moment decisions about what was needed when - do I need to change Auras, do I need my 10 min CDs, do I even need this defense 20s buff right now, does the healer need me to use my mana return skill on them, do I need to backup heal or get back in there and dps, etc. It was active and what was best changed depending on the fight, the group makeup, etc. There was no set rotation.

From what I've read on the wiki (and I highly suggest everyone do that) it sounds like they're going in a similar direction with the Bard, here and I think that's the right move to make it both fun, useful, and balanced. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bard. I feel like you haven't even read that because not only do they quite well describe how different Bard will be here from Lineage 2, there's a quote from Steven where he basically calls out L2 and how badly they did it.

You'll find that's a theme in this game - quotes from Steven calling out how badly other games did various mechanics and how he wants to do it better. Just because he takes inspiration from other games, that doesn't mean he wants to copy those mechanics. In most cases, he wants to improve upon them - that's why he started Intrepid in the first place, is because he felt all those other games he played messed up in a lot of ways.

Rennoc Ladner wrote: »

Enchanting

And what's more, a +5 weapons was like a nerfgun compared to a +11. Higher than low double digits and you'd be mad to continue enchanting, unless of course it worked. This slot-machine crafting mechanic that was enchanting in Lineage must exist in the game in some capacity. End game crafting professions simply cannot remain interesting unless there is constant demand for the crafts via the balanced removal of supply.

Simply having gear be able to break down in a real way through durability or enchanting creates a self-sustaining craft economy through the lifespan of a game. And the trade off is being able to take risks and reap the rewards of those risks through gear, which creates a more engaging experience.

Enchanting was terrible in every game that has done it so far and I see no reason for it to exist here. Further, it's something that most Western gamers agree they hate with a passion. I'd argue it's a game-breaking issue for many that once the larger audience of this MMO realizes it exists, they're going to either decide to never play AoC, or they'll make a big stink about it (I've already had people tell me that if it makes it in as expected they absolutely will not play).

And to add to that, I dont particular care if crafting is constantly needed. I'm ok with crafters making gear once in a while, occasionally making a second set for someone or fixing durability once in a blue moon or whatever. More MMO's have crafting in that occasional capacity and not a regular necessity that I simply cannot be convinced it's needed for the economy. I have yet to read an argument that explains why we all need to be punished and hate the game every week simply so a few people can live out their crafting dream. It's absurd and economies exist in other games just fine without grinding stuff out every week for it. I'd actually argue enchanting systems and constant grind hurts the economy more than it helps.

I'd be ok with something like using crafting mats to repair durability or something as long as it's nothing more than the mats we'll have in our bags from an average night of gaming. If we have to go out of our way to grind mats, that defeats the purpose of balancing the economy or adding a gold sink - if people don't have the mats or gold to begin with and have to grind for it, its unnecessary.

Let's be real here - the only reason for such enchanting systems in other games is to drive players to P2W cash shops because that was the primary revenue driver for those games. That will not exist here, so why should such an enchanting system exist?

Selo

Leiloni wrote: »

Let's be real here - the only reason for such enchanting systems in other games is to drive players to P2W cash shops because that was the primary revenue driver for those games. That will not exist here, so why should such an enchanting system exist?

Agreed
Another way to make "risky" system is to do it like DaoC did.
Excuse me for not remembering the correct names.
A crafter could make an item from between 1-100% quality.
a 100% quality had more "enchanting points" available than a a lower % one.
Lets say a 100% one had 100 points available
You could then get stones with stats on them that took up different amount of points which you took to an enchanter.
say a str +5 stone took 50 points, and +5 con stone took 50, that would fill up all those 100 points.
Now, you could try to "overcharge" an item with for example a stone that took 60 points and another with 50 for a total of 110 points. Or you could try going even higher.
You had a lower chance of succeding but it was all your choice, no scrolls invovled, and no "safe" scrolls available.

Speed

As someone who played L2 (2004-2020) on retail and private servers I can speak personally to the buffing issue. I mained a prophet in many different servers. This class needs to have a second utility besides buffing to make people want to play it and useful outside of a buff bot that everyone had a personal one of. Same goes for warcryers and sometimes overloards in L2 as well. A good example of a secondary healer done very well to me is the Mystic class in Tera. This class can heal, not as powerful or bursty as a priest in Tera but it can be done, then as a second utility they have an insane amount of debuffs to control the battlefield in the in between time of healing. Buffing and buffs in L2 were always a sore spot as in the end it just seemed like these characters were wasted characters that could have been much more.

Personally I would prefer them in AoC to have healing as a secondary to buffs and debuffs as a primary role.

Skb

Leiloni wrote: »

Let's be real here - the only reason for such enchanting systems in other games is to drive players to P2W cash shops because that was the primary revenue driver for those games. That will not exist here, so why should such an enchanting system exist?

l2 was a subscription based game

CaptnChuck

screwtape wrote: »

Just look at Black Desert Online for examples of how much Western players HATE RNG in gear progression.

Item decay or other methods to facilitate a constant influx and outflux of top tear gear will be critical. I know some people want "I did all this work to get top tier gear, I want to be DONE" while I like the idea that top tier gear is disposable and I expect to constantly be repairing/replacing my gear. The idea of permanent gear doesn't sit well with me, and by having it decay and have it require replacement regularly will support demand for high quality gear. We don't need some RNG slot machine to ruin peoples day.

RNG is bad, Black Desert has spent the last several years introducing one new feature after the next to help mitigate the RNG pain. Why not just start off right and do no RNG?

How would you like it if every time you leveled up it was RNG on how much your stats increased? Oh and sometimes they decrease!!!! You can fix it by more grinding, but hey risk vs reward leveling up, am I right? Character equipment plays the same role in character progression and power, don't make it RNG.

There needs to be some level of RNG in the game. If such an enchanting system doesn't exist, there will be no grind or reason for people to keep playing. As long as the benefit of enchanting your gear past a certain point, aren't SUPER significant, its fine. It should just be a moderate, but significant, increase in power.

ToPalioPasok

The whole buffing concept of L2 was a nightmare to be honest. For those who do not know there were some classes that their sole purpose was to buff party/clan members and being almost completely useless in PvP/PvE. And aside from that, a character without buffs was immeasurably powerless when compared to an identical char WITH buffs on him.

More importantly, after the early levels your character alone could not do any content at all, forcing you to level up alt chars for buffs and having them with you all the time sharing exp or buy from other players every 20 minutes from a specific spot or party with others all day long.

I just hope in AoC the buffs are neither of that power level nor significance as they were in L2 and of course my character to be playable without them

Leiloni

CaptnChuck wrote: »

There needs to be some level of RNG in the game. If such an enchanting system doesn't exist, there will be no grind or reason for people to keep playing. As long as the benefit of enchanting your gear past a certain point, aren't SUPER significant, its fine. It should just be a moderate, but significant, increase in power.

There's tons of content in this game for players to work towards and interlocking systems to keep people busy. I don't think adding BDO style grind really is necessary to get people out in the world.

MrScrewtape

Leiloni wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

There needs to be some level of RNG in the game. If such an enchanting system doesn't exist, there will be no grind or reason for people to keep playing. As long as the benefit of enchanting your gear past a certain point, aren't SUPER significant, its fine. It should just be a moderate, but significant, increase in power.

There's tons of content in this game for players to work towards and interlocking systems to keep people busy. I don't think adding BDO style grind really is necessary to get people out in the world.

I agree, the "gear grind" or "level grind" shouldn't be End Game. Once you hit max level and max gear isn't the end of MMO gameplay. Doing dungeon raids / world bosses with fun mechanics, node sieges, running a tavern, etc.. are all a lot more fun and have a longer runway than Gear/level grind.

I know not everyone wants to run raids/dungeons/world bosses simply because they are a fun challenge and they need a reward for a reason to run them, but let's get back to playing the games conent as the motivation to play, not the level or gear grind. Yes character progression is very rewarding, but it can't be the sole measure of success and fun.

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