Number of Classes in AoC

Initially, IS was planning to have 12 base archetypes in the game. This would result in a whopping 144 classes. Obviously, this was an almost impossible task to take on and hence they removed 4 of those archetypes, leaving us with 64 classes.

I feel that 8 is still too many FOR LAUNCH. I feel like the ideal amount of base archetypes should just be 6 for launch: Tank, Cleric, Mage, Fighter, Rogue and Ranger.

The reason I say this is because designing and balancing abilities is something that you improve at with experience. Having 64 classes to do this for, is simply too much. If you only have 36 however, it gives you a lot more room to better design and balance these classes. This will result in the newer classes being much more better designed and balanced from the get go, as IS will have more knowledge and experience doing this.

That's why, I feel like there should only be 36 classes for launch. Every 6 months, they could add a new archetype. So we'll get bard and summoner a year after launch. After releasing bard and summoner, they could create polls to ask the community what class they want next.

What do you guys think?

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Damokles

Lets be real guys.
If they ever removed the Bard from the game, then there would be all out war.
No peace. No reconciliation.
I and many others went to this game BECAUSE they promised us a honest to god good bard class.

Do you know how many current games there are with good bard classes? None. No up to date game has release a good bard class in my opinion, and Intrepid seems to be close to actually giving that to us.

Im sorry but f*ck 6 classes.

WoW Classic started out with 9 classes and 3 (4 fpr druids) specs for all of them.
AION had 8 (4 main specs that then turned into 2 individual classes after lvl 10 each)
Guild Wars 1 may have had 6 classes at first (later 10), but they also combined them all with dual classes where you could pick and choose any ability from any of the two classes.
Guild Wars 2 had 8 classes as well.

There is no real reason for Intrepid to scale down their initial classes.

(I admit it freely, I am a Bard lover and could care less for the Summoner class, but there are just as many summoner class fans as there are bard players)

Edit:
In addition concerning the root animations for strong spells.

Personally I think it is about commitment.
In WoW you can cancel your cast by moving around if you mess up, which takes away a ton of responsibility because players will just try to cast it through and if it wont work then they can just cancle it.

They wont be able to do that in Ashes, which is a good thing.

Commit to strong spells by having to watch your character burn in the fight because your positioning is bad. Thats real responsibility for yourself.

It could be possible that you can reduce the damage of certain spells and increase their cast time through augments of you want a "flowing" gameplay. I myself will try to shorten my cd as much as possible while dancing around my enemies as a melee bard. Buffs galore my friends!

Beekeeper

Damokles wrote: »

In WoW you can cancel your cast by moving around if you mess up, which takes away a ton of responsibility because players will just try to cast it through and if it wont work then they can just cancle it.

Sometimes you press the wrong button while in a fight. Being able to cancel that is just basic usability. Being forced to watch yourself resummon your minion for 20 seconds instead of throwing a fireball is not a tactical maneuver that backfired, it's butterfingers. Even monster hunter let's you roll out of animations when you realize you've made a mistake.

Not to mention how utterly annoying it would be to have to wait out every spell you accidentally use while simply traversing the land.

nidriks

CaptnChuck wrote: »

I don't want to play a mage and just stand still because all my abilities root me in place. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure that most people would prefer more active/fluid combat, as opposed to something that constantly roots you in place.

You can be, but you have to pick your moments/skills. Maybe.

We don't really know the full ins and outs yet. As I said in my earlier reply to you, the game is still very much pre-alpha. If you see a brick house in a video, assume it will be wooden by release.

Just because I said some skills mean you need to stay still, there can be others that allow you to move.

In my opinion it should come down to concentration. You can be good enough to summon a small rock and guide it at your opponent if moving, but having the concentration to summon a giant ball of fire should be beyond you. You are, after all concentrating on keeping your footing or the position of your enemies.

I believe there should be instants and conjurations, for example. Instants are little spells to do quick damage. Maybe they can stun. That stun then allows you the time to stand and concentrate on a big ball of fire.

Group action is another matter. You can be in a group free to stand back and fire off big nukes. However, in that situation, I believe mages should be limited against doing huge damage by the fear of gaining too much threat and breaking the tank's taunt.

I justw ant combat that makes you think, rather than combat where you just run with a sequence of spells. Root, fire ball, smite, fireball, smite, root, fireball, smite...etc, etc. It all gets a bit dull. I'd also like to see players have to pick and choose abilities for a situation, a la EQ. That might be more than some people are willing to accept though, and digressing a bit.

Don't worry folks. I see no need to have a spell book in front of your face.

Vio1

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@Vio
@apmax
@nidriks

I don't want to play a mage and just stand still because all my abilities root me in place. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure that most people would prefer more active/fluid combat, as opposed to something that constantly roots you in place.

I believe the intent of being rooted in place is a risk versus reward. I'm positive there will be different delay of casting skills, which will reflect on the amount of damage/alternate effects(CC) and things of that nature. The standing still to do a more massive amount of damage is yet another risk versus reward. You may not be able to move, but if successful it will do seriously large amounts of damage to your opponent.

I noticed you also said combat in general, and not just PvP. I don't know about you, but I DON'T want my PvE content to be a constant PvP-esque battle. Having to dodge, weave, and calculate for every single encounter of a particular type of monster isn't fun and nullifies the contrast against PvP in the first place. Leave the PvP elements for the PvP gameplay. Make PvE unique in its own way.

Adaon

Just to weigh in - I'd rather see very few if any instant cast spells, and have mostly animation lock/stationary casts/skill use. The way WoW moved where you had classes that could either heal efficiently or kill people without ever sitting still for even a moment - didn't make for a better game. There should be consequences for misplaying, and animation cancel - ok, have animation cancel, but give it a cooldown, if you're consistently making mistakes - you should be penalized. This isn't some "Grand new evolution of gameplay" where players just have unlimited mobility, get to do whatever they want all the time, and never have to make tough decisions, yes games have that model - but that doesn't make them better

Not if you want any kind of meaningful choice in combat.

I'd argue WoW pvp got worse and worse over the years precisely because they wanted people to have unlimited mobility, and then you get classes like Demon Hunters coming out, and their mobility is also tied into essentially immunity frames, lol.

Beekeeper

I mean, if canceling a spell means you waste your time, isn't that enough? Commit to your spell, or do nothing. You can move, but your spell fizzles. Those are choices.

Vio1

Adaon wrote: »

Just to weigh in - I'd rather see very few if any instant cast spells, and have mostly animation lock/stationary casts/skill use. The way WoW moved where you had classes that could either heal efficiently or kill people without ever sitting still for even a moment - didn't make for a better game. There should be consequences for misplaying, and animation cancel - ok, have animation cancel, but give it a cooldown, if you're consistently making mistakes - you should be penalized. This isn't some "Grand new evolution of gameplay" where players just have unlimited mobility, get to do whatever they want all the time, and never have to make tough decisions, yes games have that model - but that doesn't make them better Not if you want any kind of meaningful choice in combat.

I'd argue WoW pvp got worse and worse over the years precisely because they wanted people to have unlimited mobility, and then you get classes like Demon Hunters coming out, and their mobility is also tied into essentially immunity frames, lol.

I don't mind instant cast spells/skills, so long as they have a long reuse cooldown depending on how impactful the spell/skill is.

As for the animation/spell cancel, I don't mind having it. Realizing you're casting the incorrect spell could be considered a "skill" in and of itself. And is rewarded in you being able to cancel and recast earlier than the oblivious person.

That means the person who knew the right spell/skil from the start will get their spell off first = most successful
The person who realizes they're doing the wrong thing midcast = semi-successful (2-3 seconds to cancel spell and recast right spell)
The person who knows nothing = Casting fail. Punished by doing little/no damage, improper timing, interrupts, etc.

Its a self-correcting scale on "skill" which is why I don't mind it. Its not catering to casual players in the same way it isn't catering to "hardcore skilled" players.

I agree on the sentiment of mobility. At first it was a novel addition to MMOs, but some MMOs make mobility a requirement, which detracts from my entertainment. Having to be constantly mobile to be successful at anything combat related in a game gets taxing and for PvE content its usually "same-y" combat approach.

Ravudha

CaptnChuck wrote: »

The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s,

Except that the abilities haven't been balanced yet. They haven't even all been implemented yet, so there's no way to tell how one ability is balanced in the context of all others.

HowlingWolf80

Wouh I didn't know this. Hell no to what you say though. Now I'm wondering what got scraped and removed.... I hope in the future we get more classes from free DLC.

CaptnChuck

@Vio
Are you serious? You're telling me that you don't want PvE to be challenging? That's right, screw the PvE players if they want to experience difficulty, let them go to PvP. Whilst it shouldn't be on the same level as PvP, PvE encounters need sufficient PvP-esque mechanics to make it interesting, especially for dungeon, raid and world bosses.

CaptnChuck

Ravudha wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s,

Except that the abilities haven't been balanced yet. They haven't even all been implemented yet, so there's no way to tell how one ability is balanced in the context of all others.

Listen to how Jeff explains the cosmic beam ability

CaptnChuck

I DON'T want animation cancelling in the game. I just want it to be fluid combat, where I'm not constantly rooted in place by abilities as shown in their gameplay footage. I'm not asking the game to be like GW2, but man, I would appreciate it if they had GW2's fluidity.

Ravudha

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s,

Except that the abilities haven't been balanced yet. They haven't even all been implemented yet, so there's no way to tell how one ability is balanced in the context of all others.

Listen to how Jeff explains the cosmic beam ability

Yeah I've seen it. If you don't like those rooted-in-place abilities, that's totally fine; use other abilities. But that's just an example of your preference, not an example of imbalance.

CaptnChuck

Ravudha wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s,

Except that the abilities haven't been balanced yet. They haven't even all been implemented yet, so there's no way to tell how one ability is balanced in the context of all others.

Listen to how Jeff explains the cosmic beam ability

Yeah I've seen it. If you don't like those rooted-in-place abilities, that's totally fine; use other abilities. But that's just an example of your preference, not an example of imbalance.

Look at the gameplay. They're constantly casting fireballs and using other abilities that lock them in place. I'm not in the minority when it comes to wanting fluid combat that doesn't constantly root you in place. Look at WoW, sure some classes have some skills that root them in place, but almost none of them lock you in animation for 2s where you can do absolutely nothing for that duration. Another example would be GW2.

FF14 is a great example for the opposite reason as well. PvP doesn't exist in FF14 simply because the combat is so static. Even if there were PvP game modes, not many would play it.

Vio1

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@Vio
Are you serious? You're telling me that you don't want PvE to be challenging? That's right, screw the PvE players if they want to experience difficulty, let them go to PvP. Whilst it shouldn't be on the same level as PvP, PvE encounters need sufficient PvP-esque mechanics to make it interesting, especially for dungeon, raid and world bosses.

I said I didn't want PvE to be consistently mimicking a PvP battle. I don't mind if Raids and Dungeons have interesting fights that require skill or knowledge, I just don't want random mob#14245 to be yet another "engaging" battle of pseudo-PvP. That's why I said PvE should be unique in its own way. I also plan to be a PvE player.

Adaon

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s,

Except that the abilities haven't been balanced yet. They haven't even all been implemented yet, so there's no way to tell how one ability is balanced in the context of all others.

Listen to how Jeff explains the cosmic beam ability

Yeah I've seen it. If you don't like those rooted-in-place abilities, that's totally fine; use other abilities. But that's just an example of your preference, not an example of imbalance.

Look at the gameplay. They're constantly casting fireballs and using other abilities that lock them in place. I'm not in the minority when it comes to wanting fluid combat that doesn't constantly root you in place. Look at WoW, sure some classes have some skills that root them in place, but almost none of them lock you in animation for 2s where you can do absolutely nothing for that duration. Another example would be GW2.

FF14 is a great example for the opposite reason as well. PvP doesn't exist in FF14 simply because the combat is so static. Even if there were PvP game modes, not many would play it.

You could actually argue that you are in "a" minority, in the sense that - WoW's player base is nowhere near what it once was, and the game it used to be actually had less emphasis on instant casts, and insane mobility. Now of course the declining player base likely isn't entirely due to that factor - or even mostly, but it did I would say make the game significantly less fun. Along with homogenization of classes, "quality of life changes" that destroy social fabric, etc. Those are things this game/the developers have either said they want to avoid directly, or seemingly indirectly.

Being locked into an animation is significantly more skill requisitive(should be a word if it is not lol), than being able to have all your mobility while doing everything you want to do at every given moment. Telegraphed mechanics and dodge rolls aren't inherently more skill based than knowing when you can and can't afford to spend two seconds in one place. You could make an argument for either - or both, it's also significantly more important that people who want to fight effectively have to remain stationary to give more emphasis to skill shots(which it seems as though they plan on including). If someone else can just mindlessly run around spamming instant cast spells while a class tries to hit them with narrow hitbox skill shots, that'd be asinine.

Fluid is not a feeling in my view that comes from mobility, animations can be "fluid", that's precisely what fighting games are, they flow, but they all have animation locks, and in some limited cases animation canceling. Smash for instance has some of those most skill based gameplay of any fighter, and it has animation locks - it has to, so you can punish players who make mistakes and open themselves up to your own animation based abilities. I believe it was "Raiderz" that game had fluid combat, and it was very animation heavy, as did blade and soul. PVP in WoW is just punishing people who cast the wrong spell at the wrong moment, in most cases - a healer, and interrupting it, combined with burst windows, and this is heavily aided by mods, which all but play the game for you, I wasn't even particularly great, but I've hit gladiator once - and hit 2200 in BFA. Having played pvp with an insane emphasis on locking people out of their ability to use commands for as long as possible to achieve a victory(all WoW pvp is at the end of the day), I'd rather try something where you lock players INTO their abilities, and by virtue of that - mistakes made end in defeat. Personal opinion.

Edit: Or you know, give people a class with high mobility - that has relatively weak abilities so it balances out. I'm always a fan of diverse playstyle within the common archetypes - examples would be like Mystics(eq2?) which instead of healing damage, would simply help tanks avoid instances of damage with timed spells? if I recall, or perhaps Saboteur/demolitionist whatever from Rift, that did essentially no damage for 5+ seconds, while placing charges - then would detonate them for 5+ seconds worth of damage all at once, Tacticians from Asherons Call 2 that could place walls, and turrets, and were kind of specifically designed for world pvp. Lot of possibilities, really just depends on execution(this is an afterthought/unrelated to my general rant).

FF14 is the way that it is - because one, it's Final Fantasy - and two, it's cross platform. The GCD in that game is nearly double what any PC exclusive mmorpg has, so that console players can keep up with the pacing of the combat, it wasn't so much a genius design - as, it had to be that way. Just like cross platform shooters have to give console players aim assist. The fights were far less twitchy in raids, but I wouldn't have found it much different pvping on my Summoner there than pveing.

When we're talking about the burden of melee vs range, advantages/disadvantages, games like WoW started off with a heavy advantage to ranged classes that could start off at range in a fight, mages/hunters - now a mage can just permanently root you and hit you with instant cast spells from just outside your melee range and has enough barriers to ignore your damage in general. Hunters had a dead zone and a lot of incentives to stick to range, and use their limited escape/control abilities - to stay at range, that also went by the wayside. I think they made these changes as part of their homogenization push, let the hunter or mage be just as effective at five yards as they are at fourty, basically(I prefer varying strengths and weaknesses).

More players back during that original period for WoW, less players now - maybe unrelated, maybe not. Blizzard is definitely in a downward spiral though, I don't think even hardcore WoW fans enjoyed BFA, they're just playing it because - what else is there. Blizzard realizing some of their errors is trying to shift back towards systems like this game will offer, more permanence in choice, but I think they'll likely end up listening to the vocal minority who want everything their way all the time and to change their spec for every fight, every pull, to be able to tweak any talent on the fly - and remove any permanence of choice from their covenant system. I'm fully expecting shadowlands to be garbage and not even tide me over until this game releases, and at the end of the day - this game may not deliver either, but I at least hear "all the right things" from the developer, which is more than I can say for most companies.

At the end of the day, just an opinion. :P If the "majority" wants WoW, I don't want a game suited to the majority, if I did, I'd just go play WoW. I preferred UO, and Everquest personally, and I'd rather see a throwback to that with updated graphics. Hell all spells in UO had cast times, and if you got hit during it - it could fizzle lol, and that had some of the most intense PVP I've had in any game, although your gear was on the line too, so that added to it.

Attar

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@Cold 0ne FTB
@Neurath
@Aeri
@Vio
@Dummo
@grisu
@nidriks
@Beekeeper
@Drokk
@debase
@Warth
@BaSkA13
@Adaon
@Atama
@Aardvark
@Yuyukoyay
@apmax
@Attar

The main reason I made this post is because of this:

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/45454/combat-skill-animations-july-dev-update

The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s, shows that they don't yet know how to balance abilities effectively. Only select few abilities should root/slow you. You shouldn't use animation lock as the primary way to balance a high dmg ability. You could reduce the hitbox of the ability, give it a high mana cost, give it a high cd or even make it a chargeable ability instead. There are so many ways to do it, yet they opt to use animation lock as the primary balance tool.

This shows that they still need to gain a ton of feedback on the combat system, and will most likely need to reiterate on the majority of these abilities, based on the footage that they've shown us so far. Imagine how long it would take to reiterate abilities for 64 classes as opposed to doing it for 36.

I don't have a problem with number of classes, i have a problem with how many can fill required roles.

CaptnChuck

Adaon wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s,

Except that the abilities haven't been balanced yet. They haven't even all been implemented yet, so there's no way to tell how one ability is balanced in the context of all others.

Listen to how Jeff explains the cosmic beam ability

Yeah I've seen it. If you don't like those rooted-in-place abilities, that's totally fine; use other abilities. But that's just an example of your preference, not an example of imbalance.

Look at the gameplay. They're constantly casting fireballs and using other abilities that lock them in place. I'm not in the minority when it comes to wanting fluid combat that doesn't constantly root you in place. Look at WoW, sure some classes have some skills that root them in place, but almost none of them lock you in animation for 2s where you can do absolutely nothing for that duration. Another example would be GW2.

FF14 is a great example for the opposite reason as well. PvP doesn't exist in FF14 simply because the combat is so static. Even if there were PvP game modes, not many would play it.

You could actually argue that you are in "a" minority, in the sense that - WoW's player base is nowhere near what it once was, and the game it used to be actually had less emphasis on instant casts, and insane mobility.

At the end of the day, just an opinion. :P If the "majority" wants WoW, I don't want a game suited to the majority, if I did, I'd just go play WoW. I preferred UO, and Everquest personally, and I'd rather see a throwback to that with updated graphics. Hell all spells in UO had cast times, and if you got hit during it - it could fizzle lol, and that had some of the most intense PVP I've had in any game, although your gear was on the line too, so that added to it.

Even if WoW's playerbase has reduced over time, it still is the MOST popular MMO right now.

You don't have to make WoW. Steven is copying the best systems from other games. So why not look at the best features of WoW and GW2 as well? For WoW, that would be its fluidity and for GW2 it would be the overall combat system.

Adaon

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Adaon wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

The way they balance abilities with high dmg by locking you in animation for 2s,

Except that the abilities haven't been balanced yet. They haven't even all been implemented yet, so there's no way to tell how one ability is balanced in the context of all others.

Listen to how Jeff explains the cosmic beam ability

Yeah I've seen it. If you don't like those rooted-in-place abilities, that's totally fine; use other abilities. But that's just an example of your preference, not an example of imbalance.

Look at the gameplay. They're constantly casting fireballs and using other abilities that lock them in place. I'm not in the minority when it comes to wanting fluid combat that doesn't constantly root you in place. Look at WoW, sure some classes have some skills that root them in place, but almost none of them lock you in animation for 2s where you can do absolutely nothing for that duration. Another example would be GW2.

FF14 is a great example for the opposite reason as well. PvP doesn't exist in FF14 simply because the combat is so static. Even if there were PvP game modes, not many would play it.

You could actually argue that you are in "a" minority, in the sense that - WoW's player base is nowhere near what it once was, and the game it used to be actually had less emphasis on instant casts, and insane mobility.

At the end of the day, just an opinion. :P If the "majority" wants WoW, I don't want a game suited to the majority, if I did, I'd just go play WoW. I preferred UO, and Everquest personally, and I'd rather see a throwback to that with updated graphics. Hell all spells in UO had cast times, and if you got hit during it - it could fizzle lol, and that had some of the most intense PVP I've had in any game, although your gear was on the line too, so that added to it.

Even if WoW's playerbase has reduced over time, it still is the MOST popular MMO right now.

You don't have to make WoW. Steven is copying the best systems from other games. So why not look at the best features of WoW and GW2 as well? For WoW, that would be its fluidity and for GW2 it would be the overall combat system.

I don't agree with your definition of fluid - as it seems to be subjective and related to your psychological perception of what things -should- be, locking/fixed animations can be executed in a fluid manner, if I initiate an attack that lasts for two seconds, and as soon as it finishes I can execute another attack that lasts for five seconds - that is "fluid", one ability flows to the next. Your perception of fluid is strictly relegated to mobility, more so than how systems interact. I'm not seeing a meaningful counter to my fighting game comparison, all animation locks - all fluid.

To you, I would gather that fluidity means being able to run circles around someone spamming sinister strike - which in WoW - a game with maybe one or two total projectile abilities(and only within the last two or so expansions), is pretty arbitrary, but would be awful in a game that wants to rely on them, any tactical shooter requires you to sit still while aiming/firing, I would imagine if they aim to have those mechanics(which it seems they do), this would follow suit.

I'd rather have CS:GO/PUBG, and not quake/fortnite, as far as analogies go.

As far as I recall Guild Wars 2 had even more mobile combat, and completely gave up the trinity in favor of twitch gameplay. I also remember getting to level cap in less than three days(thanks cooking) and never playing the game again after that when it first came out. If I were to cite anything that game did well, it would have been world building, zone complexity/depth, hidden stuff, etc.

Honestly I think the word you're looking for is frenetic

when it comes to how you want things to be, but as always, in anything I say - I could be wrong. :P

bloodprophet

The world for GW2 is probably the only thing I liked in about it. Everything else was trash. Especially coming from GW1.

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