PvP progression should be reworked

IS defines AoC as a PvX game. These are IS definition of PvX, these statements are crucial since they define what AoC sees as PvX:

1*We like to really refer to ourselves as a PvX game, because in those systems of PvP, PvE, crafting they're all intertwined: They're interdependent on each other... Our system of development really requires some interdependence there between those things. You're going to need a crafter to give you the best items. You're going to need PvPers to secure cities and castles. You're gonna need PvErs to take down those world bosses for those materials to craft.[1] – Steven Sharif

2*There will not be different PvP and PvE gear types.[5]

3*Progression in the game might require PvE elements.

4*It is unlikely that a player could purely focus on just PvP or just PvE.

5*There is a balance between PvP and PvE in Ashes of Creation.

Main request:
In a PvX game, PvP, PvE and crafting are all connected and balanced togheter. Currently, there is no way to obtain gear pieces from PvP, you only get materials from certain activities. But, PvE players have acces to materials, and finished gear pieces that will drop regulary.

I want there to be atleast a few gear pieces, a weapon and cloak perhaps, that are obtainable through PvP activity. In the form of crafting recepies that are unlocked or in the form of gear vendors of some kind.

I also want PvP players to get rewarded more often than once every 6 months as it currently stands.

Unfair advantage for PvE players
Currently, PvE players are favoured in regards to gearing in AoC. You can obain finished gear pieces and materials from quests, dungeons and raids every week. Without any problems at all, you can ignore every single piece of PvP activitity in the game and not be handicapped gear wise. Since 100% of gear comes from quests, dungeons raids and artisan classes you dont need to focus on any PvP activities to gear up.

You can not however, obtain a single piece of gear from sieges, wars, caravans or arenas. The only gear progression you get from PvP is once every 6 months in the form of enchants. This means that if you are a focused PvP player, your progression will be a lot slower than a focused PvE player. This is not balanced.

Rewarded for playing 80% PvE, punished for playing 80% PvP
A player that loves PvP and wants to dedicate the majority of his time doing PvP activities like caravans, sieges and wars will have a harder time gearing than a player that spends most of his time in dungeons and raids. Since you are rewarded gear from dungeons and raids, you always progress your character while doing these activities. But, a PvP player that works just as hard doing PvP activities, will never obtain a single piece of gear at the same rate as a PvE player.

Instead, I believe you should be awarded gear from PvE, Crafting and PvP in a balanced and fair way. If this is implemented properly, everybody wins. If the game stands as it is now, a big chunk of the PvP community will lose and have less fun.

The things I think are fun reward me better than the things you think are fun
If you hate PvP and only have fun doing PvE this is the game for you. You don't even need to touch PvP, just spam dungeon and raids over and over while picking flowers and chopping trees and you will have best in slots in no time!

But if you dare to hate PvE, and do not want to spam raids and dungeons, you are handicapped gear wise. This is not fair. There should be a progression balance between crafting, PvP and Pve.

Forcing people to PvE, rewarding people for ignoring PvP
If you want to be a competitive PvP guild or player, you will have to spend the majority of your time doing PvE content. Since most materials and all items comes from PvE, the most effective way to aquire said materials and items is to do PvE content. But, you get very little progression from focusing on PvP.

This system, has not a single drawback for people ignoring to do PvP activities but a massive drawback for people ignoring PvE content.

How would you feel as a PvE player, if the only way to progress effectivly in a game, was by playing PvP?
This is how many PvP players currently feel.

Counter arguments make no sense as it stands now
1: Unique PvP and PvE armor has no place in a PvX game
2. If we allow PvP gear, people will just stay AFK and do arenas
3. By offering PvP gear, people will ignore PvE content

Counter argument 1:
I do not want unique PvP gear. I want PvPers to be able to aquire certain items of equivalent power to PvE/Crafted gear by doing PvP activities like: Caravans, sieges, guild wars, bounty hunting and arenas. This can be limited to 3-4 item pieces. These items can be in the form of unlockable recepies you unlock by doing certain PvP activities.

Counter argument 2:
The only afk PvP activities are arenas. Caravans, sieges, wars and bounty hunting all require equivalent or even more dedication than PvE content. All these activities are open world and require you to go out and play just like PvE activities does.

Counter argument 3:
Just like all items do not come from PvE alone, all items do not have to come from PvP as well. By offering SOME gear pieces from PvP, as much as PvE, you have balance, which is what PvX stands for.

Solutions everyone wins on

1. Reward PvP players more often than once every 6 months. Since PvE players are rewarded with gear and materials every week, PvP players should also be rewarded in someway every week. PvP players should at the very least be rewarded once every month.

2. Offer unlockable or buyable recepies that award gear based on your PvP activities in Caravans, Arenas, sieges, wars and bounty hunting. These recepies should offer gear that is equal to the equivalent difficulty in PvE but have a cosmetic difference to show your PvP achivments.

By making the rewards as recepies, you do not screw up the value from crafters and gatherers, since they are still needed to make the gear people unlock with PvP.

Why?
Because PvP players want to have some form of gear progression from PvP. It does not have to be a lot. It just has to be there in some form or another.

PvP players want to display gear they earned from doing what they love. I don't want to use gear I only got from crafting and PvE, I want to use gear I got from doing what I love, and that is PvE, PvP and crafting.

Cosmetic difference in gear that is awarded in PvP will make the PvP community happier. People will be able to show their passion and interests in the way their gear looks. This will motivate people to play more PvP and not take ANYTHING from people that want to play PvE.

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George_Black

Marcet wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

@Marcet
If you get your progression from PvP, as a PvPr, you have no reason to PvE. It becomes optional.

If you cannot be attacked in the open world as a PvEr, PvP becomes optional, meaningless.

That is why I am against PvP progression/rewards/gear, just as I am against no PvP in the open world.

I am not sure why you got confused, or what does wow have to do with anything I said.

Im not saying ALL progression should be PvP, im not saying you can get all you need in the game by PvP. Im just saying PvPers should be able to obtain some cool things for being good at PvP. I want the majority of gear and progression to be in PvE, I like raids and dungeons, I like quests. Im a PvE player.

But in what world having PvP incentives destroys the game??? It makes no sense at all.

The PvP insentives of games like AoC are that you can disrupt an enemy players/guilds progression.
Another is the control of territory and the benefits this brings(castles and out-of-node guildhalls).
Finally the very fact that you can kill an enemy group that is raiding and steal their boss and loot, is more rewarding that a match victory that awards you some PvP points for the PvP shop. (Or caravan or ship).

By adding rewards and BG progress for PvP, you dilute open world.

George_Black

Btw, in L2 there was this 1v1 arena going on every night for players that had achieve HARD open world(PvX) goals (talking about year long gameplay goals).

In this arena, the best players of every class(30 classes) would be declared heroes of their class, with hero weapons, hero abilities, hero shop (very useful items) and a few more.

Only 30 players out of 10k per server.
Next month, the trial begins again.

These are meaningful PvP rewards.
Not PvP progression.

Noaani

Marcet wrote: »

Ohhh we have a funny guy!! nice!! Im not even a wow player, but all you boomers just hating hard on a great game.

WoW is a good game, but a shit MMORPG.

It has raids, but they are only kind of ok compared to other games.

However, that isn't what my comment was about.

In WoW, if you kill someone in PvP, they just respawning and carry on with their day. In PvE, you hit your head against a mob until it dies. When you get a 'thing', that thing is yours, and no one can do anything about it.

It is all meaningless.

In Ashes, you can bang your head against a mob, get that same 'thing', but you could then lose it to someone later on. In Ashes, it you kill someone in PvP, you may walk away with hours of work they have put in to the game.

This content has meaning.

And we haven't even got on to sieves or caravans yet.

Just because someone says something bad about a game you like, that doesn't mean they are wrong.

WoW as a game is shallow - that simple fact is why we have so many people here more than 2 years before this game is being released.

Skb

I can come up with a few PvP scenarios that reward gear right now such as world bosses, dungeons and caravans, and if you are fine with materials aswell, I would imagine a gathering hotspot would bring pvp aswell.
There are probably more pvp scenarios in the game that I dont know about

Aardvark

George Black wrote: »

Marcet wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

@Marcet
If you get your progression from PvP, as a PvPr, you have no reason to PvE. It becomes optional.

If you cannot be attacked in the open world as a PvEr, PvP becomes optional, meaningless.

That is why I am against PvP progression/rewards/gear, just as I am against no PvP in the open world.

I am not sure why you got confused, or what does wow have to do with anything I said.

Im not saying ALL progression should be PvP, im not saying you can get all you need in the game by PvP. Im just saying PvPers should be able to obtain some cool things for being good at PvP. I want the majority of gear and progression to be in PvE, I like raids and dungeons, I like quests. Im a PvE player.

But in what world having PvP incentives destroys the game??? It makes no sense at all.

The PvP insentives of games like AoC are that you can disrupt an enemy players/guilds progression.
Another is the control of territory and the benefits this brings(castles and out-of-node guildhalls).
Finally the very fact that you can kill an enemy group that is raiding and steal their boss and loot, is more rewarding that a match victory that awards you some PvP points for the PvP shop. (Or caravan or ship).

By adding rewards and BG progress for PvP, you dilute open world.

No it just makes the best raid guild ones that raid at 3am when the pests are sleeping

George_Black

Aardvark wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

Marcet wrote: »

George Black wrote: »

@Marcet
If you get your progression from PvP, as a PvPr, you have no reason to PvE. It becomes optional.

If you cannot be attacked in the open world as a PvEr, PvP becomes optional, meaningless.

That is why I am against PvP progression/rewards/gear, just as I am against no PvP in the open world.

I am not sure why you got confused, or what does wow have to do with anything I said.

Im not saying ALL progression should be PvP, im not saying you can get all you need in the game by PvP. Im just saying PvPers should be able to obtain some cool things for being good at PvP. I want the majority of gear and progression to be in PvE, I like raids and dungeons, I like quests. Im a PvE player.

But in what world having PvP incentives destroys the game??? It makes no sense at all.

The PvP insentives of games like AoC are that you can disrupt an enemy players/guilds progression.
Another is the control of territory and the benefits this brings(castles and out-of-node guildhalls).
Finally the very fact that you can kill an enemy group that is raiding and steal their boss and loot, is more rewarding that a match victory that awards you some PvP points for the PvP shop. (Or caravan or ship).

By adding rewards and BG progress for PvP, you dilute open world.

No it just makes the best raid guild ones that raid at 3am when the pests are sleeping

Raid boss respawn time and cooldown is the deciding factor there, and it wont be based on instanced content mentality.

3arc

I am speaking regarding more PvP specific activities such as node battles, battle grounds, guild wars and arenas etc. Open world PvP should be left as it is, including caravan PvP as that has enough rewards by the sounds of it.

I agree, there needs to be more rewards to PvP. Just because PvEers are forced to interact with PvP that doesn't discount the fact that PvP should get barely anything. PvPers are also forced to interact with PvE by the looks of it, which is fine.

If you can PvE for gear/recipes, why cant you PvP for gear/recipes too? You don't have to give everything to PvP, but some more incentive for people to play PvP in the long run should be welcomed in PvX game.

I don't see what the issue is for giving PvPers gear or recipes as a reward, either it comes down to the fact that PvEers want more players participating in PvE instead of PvP maybe? Because if someone doesn't get their sword, recipe or material from a dungeon and get it from PvP instead, how exactly does this effect crafters? (if drop rates can be made lower or similar)

PvP with barely no rewards would be the same as PvE with barely no rewards.

George_Black

Eh... with this "forced" mentality that you approach mmorpgs, I am not even sure why you play such games. Nothing more to add to the discussion of adding meaningless rewards to pvp.

George_Black

It has been clrarly stated that the game will be PvX.

Talking about PvP progression and rewards for PvPrs, talking about more instanced dungeons for PvErs goes against that.

It's not rocket science.

Aardvark

George Black wrote: »

It has been clrarly stated that the game will be PvX.

Talking about PvP progression and rewards for PvPrs, talking about more instanced dungeons for PvErs goes against that.

It's not rocket science.

Except it’s becoming very clear it’s not pvx but instead pvp with sprinkles

Leiloni

Shaladoor wrote: »

You only get rewarded for caravan PVP if you succeed. And you have no idea how much loot you might get, or exactly how strong the caravan and guards/players will be. In order to participate in caravan PVP, you have to flag for PVP, and that means if you die you accrue XP debt. The more you resurrect and try to continue attacking the caravan, the more XP debt you can accrue through multiple deaths. So yes, you absolutely can be punished for caravan PVP, but only if you lose

I just don't know if there will be enough incentive to engage in caravan PVP, or rather if the reward is really worth the risk. I could see myself doing it just for fun every now and then, but not on a regular basis. I'm terrible at PVP and would most likely just die too much and spend the next day or so working off my XP debt, haha.

A few points to note here -
1. The PvP flagging system is not in effect for caravans. It's considered a PvP event and all participants, including defenders, are considered as having opted-in to PvP. Same with sieges, guild wars, and other such PvP events. Nobody goes red for PvPing during these events.
2. For the death in general, everyone accrues XP debt and other penalties upon death. In fact a purple PvP flagged combatant, has less death penalties than a green/non-combatant. They suffer 50% of the penalties that a green player would accrue. It's supposed to encourage consensual PvP.

Here are those details and obviously a red/corrupted player suffers more penalties, but for the sake of this discussion I didn't feel it relevant to paste that bit:

A non-combatant (green player) who dies suffers normal penalties, which include:[3]
Experience debt (negative experience).[4]
Skill and stat dampening.[3]
Lower health and mana.[3]
Lower gear proficiency.[3]
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.[5]
Durability loss.[3]
Dropping a percentage of carried raw materials.[3]
This includes a percentage of items carried on the player's mule.[6]
This also includes a percentage of the certificates a player is carrying.[7]
A combatant (purple player) who dies suffers these same penalties, but at half the rate of a non-combatant.[3]

So if you want to run around as a green/non-combatant in order to feel safer, just know that the trade off (again, this game is all about risk vs reward) for being less likely to be attacked is that you suffer twice the death penalties (that includes XP debt) of a combatant.

Grievousness

While I understand the OP's issue with a lack of PvP rewards I don't think these is a valid request to have considering the focus of the game.
By cherrypicking what you like to hear from Steven's statement concerning PvX you might have overlooked what this game is actually advertised to be.

If I were to describe it to someone completely unfamiliar I'd suggest to think of this game as the MMO version of a civilisation builder, with PvP as a late game feature to break up the established order.
In that sense I would personally not expect PvP to be a complete progression path but merely a thing that happens occasionally and adds a general sense of danger to most activities.

The reason for that is the overarching feature of the game:
The node system which is basically emulating the growth of a civilisation by reacting to players doing PvE and gathering stuff.
This feature is so important to the game as a whole that it is literally the first thing getting described when you go on the wiki:

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ashes_of_Creation

"Ashes of Creation is an upcoming MMORPG set in a world of high fantasy where player’s choices will shape and define the world around them.[1]

Ashes of Creation is a unique take on the MMO experience. Our world structure is dynamic and built to react to the actions of our players. Cities will rise and fall, their populations based on the history of the world as the players create it. Quests will unlock as these populations gather, their needs grow, and secrets are unlocked. As the world’s NPC structure is established in real time, players will have the ability to destroy what they’ve created, paving the way for new development, new populations, and real change. Political strife and intrigue will play a very real role in the structure of your world. Gone are the days of static worlds, change is here to stay.[2]"

In the PvP section they also say the following:

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ashes_of_Creation#PvP

"PvP (Player versus player combat) is the catalyst for change in Ashes of Creation.[81] Player combat is intended to be meaningful, ranging from Caravan battles to vast open world conflicts fought for the pride of Kings and Queens.[77]

Because players are motivated by different things, because they want something from the game that other players don't want, that's going to cause people to butt heads. Different players are going to want different experiences and the conflict between the two of them will create a bigger and better thing. Out of strife comes rebirth and that's a core symbol, it's a core theme that occurs throughout the game.[60] – Jeffrey Bard"

The "catalyst for change", that is what PVP mostly is intended to be and this is a clear hint at sieges and nodes.
The other thing that gets mentioned is "butt heads" or "conflict".
That doesn't sound like something you can progress through, I'd call that a violent problem solving system.
If you read this you may also realize that they probably would even prefer to have no artificial Arena PvP system at all since it would not be a meaningful addition to the world building.
Since those artificial systems are mainly used for progression in PvP there is a clear problem with your suggestion and the devs vision for PvP.

I wouldn't say you cannot play this game as a PvP player, but the bigger piece of the cake is not PvP.
The primary focus is clearly on player driven world building, mainly by progressing in PvE and Gathering.
PvP is only an afterthought to protect or steal the progress made by those two systems.

It is very clear from the devs statements that PvP, PvE and Gathering are different systems which aren't supposed to be balanced out or completely negate each other.
As a result there is no point in comparing their rewards since they are not compareable to begin with:
How would you compare the value of a node conquering with a guy getting an item from a boss kill?
How would you compare the satisfaction from defending your grind spot to an invader with the profit a crafter has after a day of "work"?
There is some merit to PvP in this game, it's just not a progression path because it is not supposed to be one.

Linstead

Leiloni wrote: »

PvX game means you're expected to participate in both PvE and PvP content and it's designed with the idea that the average player is doing both (hence the X in PvX).

So why are players expected to participate in PvP content? If it doesn't give players any tangible rewards, people just won't do it. Especially people who loathe pvp.

Grievousness

noaani wrote: »

WoW is a good game, but a shit MMORPG.

It has raids, but they are only kind of ok compared to other games.

However, that isn't what my comment was about.

In WoW, if you kill someone in PvP, they just respawning and carry on with their day. In PvE, you hit your head against a mob until it dies. When you get a 'thing', that thing is yours, and no one can do anything about it.

It is all meaningless.

Full loot on death is also a meaningful system, it's still bad.
"Meaning" isn't a magical property you can just stamp on something and it is good.
It also depends on an individual person's way of attributing value to something.

For example the Cutting Edge archievments in WOW are meaningfull because it is objective prove of the players accomplishments, since only a minority of the playerbase have them.
It is the accumulation of hundreds if not thousands of hours spend to get to that point and succeed.
In fact Cutting Edge archievments are so widely acknowledged that they will influence the value of your account if you were to sell it.

noaani wrote: »

In Ashes, you can bang your head against a mob, get that same 'thing', but you could then lose it to someone later on. In Ashes, it you kill someone in PvP, you may walk away with hours of work they have put in to the game.

This content has meaning.

Yea, that will be "meaningful" about one time and if it happens all the time you will just stop because it will be pointless to do something if the chances are higher to loose than to win.
That's not exactly the best example to explain meaning, is it?

Grievousness

Linstead wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

PvX game means you're expected to participate in both PvE and PvP content and it's designed with the idea that the average player is doing both (hence the X in PvX).

So why are players expected to participate in PvP content? If it doesn't give players any tangible rewards, people just won't do it. Especially people who loathe pvp.

They aren't expected to do PvP, it just happens naturally because most content is not instanced.

Imagine you form a party to clear a dungeon and someone else has the same idea.
You probably meet in the dungeon and beat your skulls in until one party is tired of it and the remaining party can do the dungeon.
So basically keeping your farm spot is the most common PvP reward in those kind of PvX games.

Asura

If you would be able to get gear from Arenas, you wouldnt really have to participate in PvE at all. Also I think your argument makes no real sense, since its PvX not PvE, so PvP will play a SIGNIFICANT role while doing PvE content like open world raids and dungeons, you cant literally siege nodes, and steal stuff from other players. So stating that PvP gives you no to little item progression is very ignorant to say the least

Caeryl

Linstead wrote: »

Leiloni wrote: »

PvX game means you're expected to participate in both PvE and PvP content and it's designed with the idea that the average player is doing both (hence the X in PvX).

So why are players expected to participate in PvP content? If it doesn't give players any tangible rewards, people just won't do it. Especially people who loathe pvp.

Is this a troll post? You get plenty of tangible rewards for PvP. You get someone’s resources, you get someone away from whatever dungeon you’re contesting, you keep your node at metro level with all its functions, you destroy someone else’s node so yours can grow into its place, you potentially get someone’s gear.

Those all seem like some hefty rewards to me.

The whole issue OP has is that they have to rely on other players turning those material gains into gear.

Yuyukoyay

It sounds less like they want to play a MMO and more that they should just go play Dark Souls instead.

Ziu

Hello, I am a 50/50 PvE and PvP player in most games. I completely agree with the original post that there NEEDS to be a reward from PvP content. The original post suggested gear Recipe’s for PvP achievements and arenas. I think that’s a great idea.
It’s a great idea because this allows the PvPer to feel awarded for their achievements in PvP and allow them a way to get gear while still having to get materials from PvE to make the gear. That is a perfect balance.
Gear being directly dropped from PvP is not a good idea though because then you won’t need to do PvE content at all.
The Recipe to make gear is a perfect middle ground for PvP awards and definitely needs some more attention. I don’t want to do PvP if all I’m awarded with is gold sometimes. A real PvPer wants that one amazing item it took then weeks or months to grind that they can show off and own with. Give the PvPers that satisfaction and item to strive for.

Marcet

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

It sounds less like they want to play a MMO and more that they should just go play Dark Souls instead.

You make no sense at all, people want incentives for PvP. Nothing to do with dark souls. You sound like a casual.

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