DPS Meter Megathread

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Samson1

Samson1

@Noaani I love how many times you have threatened IS with the "third party combat tracker" business... You must have mentioned it over 10 times in this thread alone (that which I have seen).

Noaani

Samson wrote: »

I love how many times you have threatened IS with the "third party combat tracker" business... You must have mentioned it over 10 times in this thread alone (that which I have seen).

What threat?

I've been closely following two different groups that are making trackers for Ashes for over a year now - not that there has been any real developmental changes in most of that time, mostly just discussions on different ways of acquiring the data needed, most of the coding for which can just be pulled from Github when needed. One of those groups developed the actual parser portion of the tool well over a year ago (it runs on Android!), and the other is just planning on using ACT.

Now it is just a waiting game to see the games client in action.

I've even mentioned a few of the ideas that have been thrown around with these groups - you'll be able to find them in this thread too, if you look for them.

I mean, it's not like this is news to anyone - of course people are going to make a combat tracker for Ashes. That has happened in every other MMO, why wouldn't it happen here?

Samson1

Noaani wrote: »

Samson wrote: »

I love how many times you have threatened IS with the "third party combat tracker" business... You must have mentioned it over 10 times in this thread alone (that which I have seen).

What threat?

I've been closely following two different groups that are making trackers for Ashes for over a year now - not that there has been any real developmental changes in most of that time, mostly just discussions on different ways of acquiring the data needed, most of which can just be pulled from Github when needed. One of those groups developed the actual parser portion of the tool well over a year ago (it runs on Android!), and the other is just planning on using ACT.

Now it is just a waiting game to see the games client in action.

I've even mentioned a few of the ideas that have been thrown around with these groups - you'll be able to find them in this thread too, if you look for them.

I mean, it's not like this is news to anyone - of course people are going to make a combat tracker for Ashes. That has happened in every other MMO, why wouldn't it happen here?

I mean... why not just go ahead and use those third party trackers then? You seem to know a lot about them and probably will grant you all of the information you are looking for plus more! You also don't seem to be worried about getting banned for using them so why not go for it.

I just find it a little amusing.. and quite tiring to see you keep using the same type of threat in your posts: "IS needs to do what I want them to do... or else."

Noaani

Samson wrote: »

I mean... why not just go ahead and use those third party trackers then?

I've said it before, a number of times in this thread - I'm sure you've read it.

I am not arguing for the notion of guild based combat trackers because it is what *I* want. I am perfectly fine using the third party combat tracker I know I will have and that I know Intrepid will have to accept.

I am arguing for a guild based combat tracker because it is the best option over all that I can see for the entire population of the game.

I agree that people should have the right to not have some stranger tracking their combat. While this doesn't bother me, I can accept that it bothers others.

There is no way a third party tracker would not allow this to happen, and so the only way to ensure that it will not happen is to have a combat tracker built in to the game itself.

Tragnar

Nitpick wrote: »

People are brutally getting off the trails here. There is 56 damn pages of you guys arguing about something I never knew was so important, cause I never needed it. Since I am not a hardcore MMO player (but I've played my fair share), I can tell you pretty much what will happen. The hardcore raiders will know exactly if what they are doing is right/wrong. No need for meters for that. Experienced players would agree. Us casuals would be fine with using the basic tactics "Apes. Together. Strong." and have a good RPG fun. To be honest, whenever I saw the meters in wow, on streams etc., it took SO MUCH of the role playing element for me, that I couldn't continue watching. From what we know, the game will be heavily focused on the roleplaying element in every way possible.

Do you realize how much you contradict yourself in this paragraph? You never played in any way close to hardcore and yet you claim that you don't need meters for that. Actually you need to have, you just use the best ones that are available. The better the meter the quicker your raid can focus on the mistakes they do.

Also if you have competition on leaderboards with playing better then from the pure design standpoint any roleplaying is out of the window in this part of the game. Does it mean you need to participate in every part of the game? No, just play the parts that you like and make you happy - why do you need to tell others what they enjoy and how they should play?

But don't worry. I'd bet that this game will cure your "WoW-ism" in no time! ^_^

Or, if you all love math so much, how about getting rid of the WHOLE COMBAT SYSTEM from the game, and you can all just press a button and it will "inflict" a number, to a certain bigger number. We can get rid of the graphics too, just KEEP IN THE NUMBERS!!! NUMBERS GUYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYS! DDDDDDD:

Good embarrassment, why to argue with words and ideas when you can sperg out like 12yo.

I understand your disgust with competition, but then the devs should not create the game with risk/reward philosophy, but just to give participation free award for anyone that tries raiding - and definitely no leaderboards.

These designs are encouraging players to use meters and minmax their gameplay - so from my point of view, if the game doesn't want to have meters it needs to drastically change their reward structure and not use any kind of leaderboards

Bla814

The "let everyone play how they want" phrase right now is actually an argument against damage-meters, since the game as it stands does not include them. The pro-combat-tracker faction is not only trying to force their ideals on other players but on the creative director himself.
There is no middle-ground to this feature either. It's a black and white issue. You have them in the game or you don't. If its a guild perk, content will be balanced around using them, so people will have to use them. If 3rd-party trackers become mainstream, they will be expected from you and people will have to use them.

As it stands I'm not too worried though. In the last like 30 pages of this thread theres pretty much only 3 people arguing for damage-meters and shutting down everyone that comes in to say how they're glad combat-trackers dont exist.

Noaani

Bla814 wrote: »

The "let everyone play how they want" phrase right now is actually an argument against damage-meters, since the game as it stands does not include them. The pro-combat-tracker faction is not only trying to force their ideals on other players but on the creative director himself.
There is no middle-ground to this feature either. It's a black and white issue. You have them in the game or you don't. If its a guild perk, content will be balanced around using them, so people will have to use them. If 3rd-party trackers become mainstream, they will be expected from you and people will have to use them.

There has not been an MMO in the last 20 years where PvE content has mattered and combat trackers have not been mainstream.

There is no reason to assume Ashes will be different in this respect.

This is the basic principle of my stance - would you rather Intrepid have control of combat trackers in a way where they can put limitations on them, or would you rather people use third party trackers?

There isn't a third option that I can see.

As it stands I'm not too worried though. In the last like 30 pages of this thread theres pretty much only 3 people arguing for damage-meters and shutting down everyone that comes in to say how they're glad combat-trackers dont exist.

Attempting to engage people in discussion and debate is not "shutting down". Proof of this can be found in how often I ask people questions - if you are shutting people down, you don't ask them direct questions.

It is not my fault if people are unwilling or unable to actually defend their stance on the topic.

Tragnar

Bla814 wrote: »

There is no middle-ground to this feature either. It's a black and white issue. You have them in the game or you don't. If its a guild perk, content will be balanced around using them, so people will have to use them. If 3rd-party trackers become mainstream, they will be expected from you and people will have to use them.

There is literally no possibility that meters will not exist in the game. All of the conversation is to create controlled version by the devs themselves to protect those players that do not want to be exposed to them.

Even then all of you that are against meters are actually just advocating for hands on "feel" and combat log reading which is one type of measurement.

Meters create meta yes, but if meters will not create meta then something disjointed from reality will and you will be excluded the same, because players that exclude players will always find a reason to exclude others.

In the end I definitely don't think the game should give rewards based on things that can be measured and ban the measurement action - this is a flawed design

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

In the end I definitely don't think the game should give rewards based on things that can be measured and ban the measurement action - this is a flawed design

And this is also the reason why people will go to even more extreme measures in this game than in others to ensure they have those measurements.

Bla814

I think we just fundamentally disagree on how player behaviour turns out in a situation where the developer strongly disencourages the use of damage-meters. While some people might still resort to third-party tools, i believe the average player will not do that.
@Noaani I've seen multiple people argue that gw2 had no combat-trackers early on, whereas you've been saying that you used one pretty much since the beginning. I feel like this shows the difference between the general community perception and the more hardcore players like urself. It seems like a lot of players werent really affected by these third-party tools before they went mainstream.

Noaani wrote: »

It is not my fault if people are unwilling or unable to actually defend their stance on the topic.

The argument often takes place under the premise that trackers are unavoidable. As i mentioned earlier, i believe (and many others alongside me) that the general playerbase will not be using those combat-trackers if Intrepid speaks out against them.
Your assumption changes the whole the discussion from "do we want combat-trackers" to "how do we want to implement them". I think that kind of shuts down any counter-arguments against damage-meters in general.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Bla814

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Literally a lie. No one is forcing you to use them.

It's not that hard of a concept. If damage-meters are widely spread in the community, you will be expected to make use of them and the game will be balanced around having that extra information. Their existance does change the gameplay experience for the general playerbase. Even if you dont have one yourself, other people will use them and that will affect you.

Now... let the adults have a civil discussion without you blurting out random accusations, which seems to be your only "contribution" to this thread.

Marcet

Damage meters are bad, I don't know why people keep arguing about this.

THIS IS A NEW GAME. DAY 1 ITS NOT GOOD TO HAVE ADDONS.

PERIOD.

SepiDN

These comments in this thread. "people will use third party software if it's not implemented" is like Valve should just hand out aimbots to everyone because otherwise "everyone will use thirdparty aimbot anyways. people will do what ever it takes to maximize". Hell if there's even one aimable skill in AoC we should have aimbots by default by this logic.

Using third party software should get you banned. Be it DPS meter, aimbot or whatever. Boasting how you and your clan will use it is childish or that one is already in development. I guarantee cheats have always been in development before game launches doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Xenotor

SepiDN wrote: »

These comments in this thread. "people will use third party software if it's not implemented" is like Valve should just hand out aimbots to everyone because otherwise "everyone will use thirdparty aimbot anyways. people will do what ever it takes to maximize". Hell if there's even one aimable skill in AoC we should have aimbots by default by this logic.

Using third party software should get you banned. Be it DPS meter, aimbot or whatever. Boasting how you and your clan will use it is childish or that one is already in development. I guarantee cheats have always been in development before game launches doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Thats exactly whats going to happen.
People will use DPS meter add ons and the same people will cry in the forum for beeing banned without reasons.

When i first saw the DPS Thread i tought it would die down as even the most dense pro DPS people have to know by now that there will be no DPS meters.

I belive Steven said that there will be no DPS Meters.
Changing that would be going back on his word.
It would mean that we would never be able to trust a singel word of him again.
Steven knows that and thats why among the reasons he himself has allready listed.
There will be no DPS meter.

You can argue about it, cry about it, complain about it. Its not going to change the outcome.

Edit: I wonder why i even botherd posting this.

Marcet

Xenotor wrote: »

Edit: I wonder why i even botherd posting this.

Yeah, all coments are gonna get lost in this ocean

This is more of a "rage-room" so people can get his frustration out and devs can contain it here.

Alizee

Not sure why we aren't getting dps meters, if the guild size is 300, they're gonna want people that do the best dps to finish hard content, that's the purpose for it, nobody cares about dps-meters on easy content, if this game actually has hard end-game raids that require you to deal an adequate amount of damage as well as dealing with mechanics/adds, then a dps meter is a must to weed out of the lazy people/SCRUBS, but then again it's not hard to use an add-on which people will do, so meh.

I have a feeling there won't be anything that difficult for the end-game since they'll have to balance around 64 class variations.

Marcet

Nitpick

Noaani wrote: »

@Nitpick

Nitpick wrote: »

This whole thread just makes me sad. :c

I don't think you have read that much of it, to be honest.

The first 40 pages or so of this thread were the formation of a general idea - the remainder of the thread is the defence of that idea.

The idea was outlined once again exactly 22 posts above yours (a bit of reading, but not in the contect of this thread).

The basics of the suggestion are for Intrepid to implement a combat tracker in to the game itself, but in a way where casual players have no need to interact with it at all (and in fact, probably couldn't interact with it at all if they tried - at least while still being casual players).

A part of that suggestion is that the combat tracker doesn't provide any information to players until after the encounter has finished. This means no "damage meter" either in game, or on a stream you are watching.

This should be the perfect solution for you, as it means you don't need to interact with a combat tracker at all.

On the other hand, if the game doesn't have a combat tracker, we will end up in the same place as literally every other game that doesn't have a built in combat tracker.

You are wrong in one specific point you make, you say that you think top end guilds will know if what we are doing is right or wrong, no need for meters. Thing is, the top end guilds will have meters, one way or the other. This is a point that isn't really up for debate - they are already in development.

WoW, EQ, EQ2, LotRO, DDO, EVE, SWG, AoC (the first one), WAR, Rift, GW, GW2, Archeage, Vanguard. None of these games had built in combat trackers - yet players used combat trackers in all of them. Some of these games took the exact same stance that Intrepid is taking right now, and all of them eventually realized that it is a fight they can not win.

If you want a different result than the status quo, you have to make a different decision. The decision to not have a built in combat tracker is what every other game has done, so players in all of those games have had to go to third party ones - which means overlays, real time information, all the things you say you don't want.

A first party combat tracker is literally the only way to get what you want - and I for one hope you get that.

I've read it alright. Seems like you didn't read what I posted, though. Still talking about a tracker, broken wheel.
No, if I know about the trackers existence, sooner or later, I will be forced to use it, by the community using it. That is not a good solution. Not a solution at all. The only solution is for it not to exist.

And I am not wrong in any point. The will be no dps meters or add-ons allowed, so any top tier guild using them, won't stay top tier for long. Or in the game, even.

You are right in one thing, though. It is not for debate. It is already, as we "speak", forbidden to use them, in any way possible. So, they can be in development. They can even get released. Hell, even get used. But that's where they'll end.

Stop comparing AoC, my only last hope for MMO's to all those cookie cutter MMO's, please. It's insulting the title. The whole game mechanic is going to be so much more different, that it's not a fair comparison, anyway. I don't want another cookie cutter experience of shitty combat with shitty conditions. ESPECIALLY WoW is the greatest example of that.

No, the first party combat tracker is not "literally the only way to get what I want". What I want is no DPS meters in game. Which means, the only solution is to... surprisingly... Not have any DPS meters in the game. I bet you couldn't guess that, even if you tried. And I don't mean to say this in irony, I'm dead serious. You are so freaking focused on the DPS meter, that you are disregarding any other possibility, like... for example... not having one. That is why I said that this post is sad.

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