Is Ammo a thing? Should it be?

WoW in its modern iteration has abandoned ammunition, instead, bows just shoot, and throwing daggers fly, up until the gear breaks. There's something to be said about how cumbersome it is to have a bunch of inventory slots filled with ammo just to have the ability to fight with a bow.

Yet, at the same time, I always saw it as a great tool for immersion to plan ahead with that. Do I buy good arrows, or are cheap ones ok? Do I get some enchanted frost arrows just in case i stumble over a fire hound?

What do you guys think? Is an ammo mechanic good immersion, or just annoying?

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Beekeeper

Would it change anything if it was not bound to class abilities, only weapon skills?

PlagueMonk

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Well since it feels like we mostly against it. Or on the fence about it.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bows

Having one ranged slot, and no ammo slot seems like a big hint to me that we are not going to have ammo.

Which would be perfectly fine by me.

While the images do make it appear as if there won't be ammo, it could be easily implemented.

I would personally be FOR having ammo. It's not like everyone has an endless potion container on their hip. You run out you have to resupply, same thing.

Having arrows also gives woodworkers another thing to make and could allow you to have different types of arrows, so it isn't all about the bow. So you could have one bow but then maybe different types of attacks and the bow would augment them. The array of different types of arrows could really make an archer shine.

There are 2 caveats to this however; First, for the inconvenience of having to make arrows, switch out quivers periodically and resupply, bows should do the most damage of any ranged weapon. The Second would be I would be willing to concede the realism of how many arrows you can have in a quiver. So maybe 100 per slot?

I think it would really add to an Archer class.

Atama

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Well since it feels like we mostly against it. Or on the fence about it.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bows

Having one ranged slot, and no ammo slot seems like a big hint to me that we are not going to have ammo.

Which would be perfectly fine by me.

While the images do make it appear as if there won't be ammo, it could be easily implemented.

I would personally be FOR having ammo. It's not like everyone has an endless potion container on their hip. You run out you have to resupply, same thing.

Having arrows also gives woodworkers another thing to make and could allow you to have different types of arrows, so it isn't all about the bow. So you could have one bow but then maybe different types of attacks and the bow would augment them. The array of different types of arrows could really make an archer shine.

There are 2 caveats to this however; First, for the inconvenience of having to make arrows, switch out quivers periodically and resupply, bows should do the most damage of any ranged weapon. The Second would be I would be willing to concede the realism of how many arrows you can have in a quiver. So maybe 100 per slot?

I think it would really add to an Archer class.

Yes, potions will be a limited supply consumable but everyone will be in the same boat in regards to managing that supply. Only people with certain weapons would need to worry about ammo, which would unnecessarily disadvantage them and make them unpopular.

Conversely, if you gave ammo-using weapons superior damage to compensate for the ammo management then you are guaranteeing that almost everyone will use them and nobody will carry another kind of weapon. It’s not an equivalent exchange.

PlagueMonk

Atama wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Well since it feels like we mostly against it. Or on the fence about it.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Bows

Having one ranged slot, and no ammo slot seems like a big hint to me that we are not going to have ammo.

Which would be perfectly fine by me.

While the images do make it appear as if there won't be ammo, it could be easily implemented.

I would personally be FOR having ammo. It's not like everyone has an endless potion container on their hip. You run out you have to resupply, same thing.

Having arrows also gives woodworkers another thing to make and could allow you to have different types of arrows, so it isn't all about the bow. So you could have one bow but then maybe different types of attacks and the bow would augment them. The array of different types of arrows could really make an archer shine.

There are 2 caveats to this however; First, for the inconvenience of having to make arrows, switch out quivers periodically and resupply, bows should do the most damage of any ranged weapon. The Second would be I would be willing to concede the realism of how many arrows you can have in a quiver. So maybe 100 per slot?

I think it would really add to an Archer class.

Yes, potions will be a limited supply consumable but everyone will be in the same boat in regards to managing that supply. Only people with certain weapons would need to worry about ammo, which would unnecessarily disadvantage them and make them unpopular.

Conversely, if you gave ammo-using weapons superior damage to compensate for the ammo management then you are guaranteeing that almost everyone will use them and nobody will carry another kind of weapon. It’s not an equivalent exchange.

Soooooo, you're presenting the two extremes to support your position [which I can appreciate] but I'm sure there is a balance in there somewhere. It would do enough damage to offset the inconvenience but yet not so much more that every RDPS would have to be one.

About potions.....well that's not quite true because some could base their characters around potion use like a mage who would continually chug mana pots to keep them casting the highest power spells without rest. There are some in ESO that base their character's power around the Argonian ability to enhance potions. So there are examples but as to weather or not AoC will have that, who knows.

Atama

If it had even the slightest boost to damage I am telling you now that I personally would be almost guaranteed to use it. If you are talking about an occasional inconvenience to keep ammo in it but I was guaranteed to do more damage then I can’t imagine using a different weapon. My tank will have a crossbow in that scenario.

That’s the problem when you reduce apples to make up for oranges. That’s why I proposed that weapons with ammo might just need to be repaired less often, because you’re replacing one type of maintenance with another. If you’re saying that carrying ammo meant you always had the highest-damage weapons in the game you will see everyone with one. That’s the mentality of gamers.

That’s why when you are trying to balance things you have to be careful to make sure you’re compensating in a relevant way. Otherwise it’s like you are flying a plane and you are compensating for steering too far to the left by pitching the plane upward. That won’t get you back on course, steer to the right instead.

PlagueMonk

Atama wrote: »

If it had even the slightest boost to damage I am telling you now that I personally would be almost guaranteed to use it. If you are talking about an occasional inconvenience to keep ammo in it but I was guaranteed to do more damage then I can’t imagine using a different weapon. My tank will have a crossbow in that scenario.

That’s the problem when you reduce apples to make up for oranges. That’s why I proposed that weapons with ammo might just need to be repaired less often, because you’re replacing one type of maintenance with another. If you’re saying that carrying ammo meant you always had the highest-damage weapons in the game you will see everyone with one. That’s the mentality of gamers.

That’s why when you are trying to balance things you have to be careful to make sure you’re compensating in a relevant way. Otherwise it’s like you are flying a plane and you are compensating for steering too far to the left by pitching the plane upward. That won’t get you back on course, steer to the right instead.

I'm sure some mini/maxers would but that's always been the case. Most however would say that the cost to make them regularly (you could easily go through 1000 in a single siege), resupply, refill when the quiver is empty (wouldn't it suck if you had that guy almost down but ran out and he got away?), perpetual lost inventory space, etc. is not worth whatever that +% is.

Maybe it's as small as 3% plus the utility of having different arrow types? IDK. That's why I'm here voicing my opinions and not on the other side making the game (well, one of many reasons

)

I have played games on both sides of the equation though. In DAoC you had to make your arrows and all the things I listed above were factors. Nothing sucked more than getting out in RvR and realizing you hadn't re-supplied

. And in ESO anyone could carry/use a bow and the arrows just magically appeared out of nowhere, really it was just another attack form with a bow/arrow animation. I found the ESO version to be kind of hollow and meaningless personally. The only thing I can't tell you is what the damage comparison in DAoC was so I don't know if was any better or worse than other RDPS types. I liked the 'realism' of having the arrows personally despite the drawbacks.

Atama

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

If it had even the slightest boost to damage I am telling you now that I personally would be almost guaranteed to use it. If you are talking about an occasional inconvenience to keep ammo in it but I was guaranteed to do more damage then I can’t imagine using a different weapon. My tank will have a crossbow in that scenario.

That’s the problem when you reduce apples to make up for oranges. That’s why I proposed that weapons with ammo might just need to be repaired less often, because you’re replacing one type of maintenance with another. If you’re saying that carrying ammo meant you always had the highest-damage weapons in the game you will see everyone with one. That’s the mentality of gamers.

That’s why when you are trying to balance things you have to be careful to make sure you’re compensating in a relevant way. Otherwise it’s like you are flying a plane and you are compensating for steering too far to the left by pitching the plane upward. That won’t get you back on course, steer to the right instead.

I'm sure some mini/maxers would but that's always been the case. Most however would say that the cost to make them regularly (you could easily go through 1000 in a single siege), resupply, refill when the quiver is empty (wouldn't it suck if you had that guy almost down but ran out and he got away?), perpetual lost inventory space, etc. is not worth whatever that +% is.

Maybe it's as small as 3% plus the utility of having different arrow types? IDK. That's why I'm here voicing my opinions and not on the other side making the game (well, one of many reasons )

I have played games on both sides of the equation though. In DAoC you had to make your arrows and all the things I listed above were factors. Nothing sucked more than getting out in RvR and realizing you hadn't re-supplied . And in ESO anyone could carry/use a bow and the arrows just magically appeared out of nowhere, really it was just another attack form with a bow/arrow animation. I found the ESO version to be kind of hollow and meaningless personally. The only thing I can't tell you is what the damage comparison in DAoC was so I don't know if was any better or worse than other RDPS types. I liked the 'realism' of having the arrows personally despite the drawbacks.

I like the realism of having arrows too. I’d also like it so that everyone had a melee slot and a ranged slot, and all ranged weapons require ammo (arrows/bolts or charges). And if you run out of ammo you’re forced to attack in melee. (I remember WoW used to work that way for the most part early on.) That’s not the direction that Intrepid is going though.

Vhaeyne

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Having arrows also gives woodworkers another thing to make and could allow you to have different types of arrows, so it isn't all about the bow. So you could have one bow but then maybe different types of attacks and the bow would augment them. The array of different types of arrows could really make an archer shine.

There are 2 caveats to this however; First, for the inconvenience of having to make arrows, switch out quivers periodically and resupply, bows should do the most damage of any ranged weapon. The Second would be I would be willing to concede the realism of how many arrows you can have in a quiver. So maybe 100 per slot?

I think it would really add to an Archer class.

That is why I am so on the fence about ammo for AoC. On one hand you are taking jobs out of the economy by removing them. On the other had you are making a class cost money to even play.

My solution for ammo would be that you can summon the lowest tier ammo as a class skill, and be able to play the class with moderate damage output. If you really wanted to invest hard earned money into your class you could spend the money to do a little more damage. This is not pay to win because you still have to earn the money to afford it in game.

It just has to be balanced so that archers with big boy arrows are not so good that the only way people want to raid is to bring a bunch of trust fund archers.

I don't care too much about inconvenience. You just should not be in a situation where your class is impossible to make money on because it costs you more money to farm. FFXI ranger was a good example of a class that cost more money to play than it would normally make.

Atama

Maybe rather than requiring ammo to use a weapon, assume the character has enough standard ammo that they won’t run out.

But let them buy an item that powers up their ammo with a special ability for a limited time. Maybe a quiver of flame arrows that last for 100 shots or 10 minutes or whatever. That item could be made by a crafter who sells them out of their store.

You can then have magic stones that “super-charge” a wand, or a whetstone that sharpens a sword, a poison to coat a dagger, etc. Let each weapon have a crafted, limited use consumable item that temporarily boosts the weapon. And the item is appropriate for whatever the weapon is.

There would be no balance issues because each weapon would have its own equivalent available. No need for an ammo slot because it’s a consumable that goes in your regular backpack. What do people think about that?

Kesarakk

For me, I don't like the idea of ammo in the sense of using up an entire bag slot to hold a quiver, which would hold stacks and stacks of ammo. There is nothing worse than being halfway through a boss fight and the ranged weapon users running out of ammo and slows the DPS. The other reason I don't like this idea of ammo is that it almost feels like these players are getting punished for their playstyle. Why would I bother using a ranged weapon if it means I have to use my limited bag space to hold the ammo for my weapon? No thanks.

On the other hand, if the idea of ammo is the type of damage being produced by the ranged weapon, then I'm all for that. If you use a crossbow and buy a "Frost Quarrel" from a crafter/merchant, that bow is now augmented to produce frost damage with other effects, such as a slow. and that weapon will continue to use that type of ammo until it is either broken or re-augmented with a new type of ammo. This wouldn't take up bag space and would add another element to the players who enjoy having different effects from their attacks.
This also opens up the idea of ranged players being able to prepare for a coming fight. If a floor of a dungeon is full of fire elementals, they would want to bring that Frost Quarrel Crossbow for the additional damage or to negate some effect those creatures would have.

Side note: These "Ammo Augments" could have a visual effect on a character, that could be toggled on or off, such as a quiver of arrows or quarrels that had blue-tipped feathers, or whatever color to represent the type of damage they are augmented for.

Lfmr

I don't think ammo should be an additional upkeep on top of repair costs, since ranged weapons will not be able to be used point blank, additionally, rangers will have to use both melee and ranged, so on top of repairing bow and gathering ammo for it, they also have to repair their melee weapon. I don't see a reason to gimp ranged more then it is already, unless you want to call the repair bill for ranged weapons "ammo bill"

Arkethos

With regard to ammo as a consumable required in order to deal damage, I've had some thoughts:

If the value of the damage per unit of ammo consumed is effectively balanced, then the use of the ammo as a consumable could make things interesting. If mobs will simply be "bullet sponges" that require 30 minutes of constant dps to drop, then perhaps the concept of consumables would be too costly. I like the idea of large quivers, but I don't like the idea of infinite quivers (in general) as that cheapens the value of each shot. I get that boss fights will be different than trash mobs, but that doesn't mean that there can't be ammo recovery systems (such as some sort of talent that enables you to retrieve XX arrows from a downed target).

If we could consider the weight of the cost in relation to the amount of damage per shot, then there might be more purpose to being a physical-ranged damage dealer. This also opens an opportunity for crafting (supply & demand) if arrows/bolts are functionally necessary for ranged combat... not to mention different ammo types that could have additional added effects (poison tips, armor piercing, broad-heads, etc). If you plan to go hunting/skinning for the day, you'll probably want to load up on broad-heads... or if you want to go raiding heavily armored serpents with your guild, you might want to stock up on armor penetrating bodkin arrows. They don't have to be excessively expensive either and basic arrows could/should be simple to craft.

Example of the value of consumable ammo w/ fake numbers, compared to other DPS roles:
- Fighter deals 15-30 damage per strike w/ 2h weapon. (1 att/sec)
- Rogue deals 5-10 damage per strike w/ daggers (dual wield). (3-4 att/sec)
- Ranger deals 35-75 damage per strike w/ long bow. (0.5 att/sec)

Another consideration would be how augments could present players with the "infinite" sort of ammo if they have Ranger-Mage, Ranger-Summoner or Ranger-Bard for augments.

Example ideas:
- Ranger-Mage (Scion): Magic Arrows (chance to proc on any ranged attack to consume no ammo)
- Ranger-Summoner (Falconer): Conjure Arrow(s) (generates ammo of whatever type is in your quiver; chance to proc on attack); Retrieve Arrow(s) will trigger your Falcon/Raven pet to go find and return nearby arrows; can be used in combat.
- Ranger-Bard (Bowsinger): Guided Arrow (arrows have a higher chance to hit their target and a chance to return to your quiver automatically after striking a target).

Arkethos

Atama wrote: »

If it had even the slightest boost to damage I am telling you now that I personally would be almost guaranteed to use it. If you are talking about an occasional inconvenience to keep ammo in it but I was guaranteed to do more damage then I can’t imagine using a different weapon. My tank will have a crossbow in that scenario.

That’s the problem when you reduce apples to make up for oranges. That’s why I proposed that weapons with ammo might just need to be repaired less often, because you’re replacing one type of maintenance with another. If you’re saying that carrying ammo meant you always had the highest-damage weapons in the game you will see everyone with one. That’s the mentality of gamers.

That’s why when you are trying to balance things you have to be careful to make sure you’re compensating in a relevant way. Otherwise it’s like you are flying a plane and you are compensating for steering too far to the left by pitching the plane upward. That won’t get you back on course, steer to the right instead.

I feel your points, but had some thoughts:

1 - Not everyone will have them (ranged weapons) if there is a minimum distance required to use them. If they are ineffective in melee range, then I don't see ANY tank having them (other than to pull with or for one-off situations). Not only that, but if they are 2-handed, then you'd be sacrificing a shield as a tank.

Having some sort of ranged attack as a utility for each class is great, but as a primary damage source, it may not be the most effective if there are different damage types / resists that require a diverse group.

Example: Would you want to drop 100 arrows into a slime cube or just have a mage fireball it once?

If the game does a shallow version of damage/resist mechanics, then I'd concede your point. I truly hope that there is depth to the design of damage & mitigation, but it will likely be some time before we see all the details on it.

2 - Your stance on less repair costs makes a lot sense, as melee weapons are constantly being used in a way that warrants repairs. I support this idea.

Chaostastic

I will be running ranger as I do in most games. Honestly I would be disappointed if there was no ammo in the game. Ammo management can be fun mechanic and it would create a whole new profession. Imagine the amount of business you would get as an arrow merchant. Selling different types of arrows, some tipped with potions.

Let me go over some of the good points I saw in this thread.

1. Bows already have a repair cost and needing to keep up with ammo would add another form of maintenance.

Honestly I wouldn't mind having both but if one needs to go I'd much rather keep ammo. Would make sense that ranged weapons degrade slower. Make the basic arrows cheap and easy to create. Like made from just tier 1 wood and stone and craft 50 at a time. When you run low you go to any town buy a shitton from a merchant, store any extra you can't carry in your freehold and you will be good for days or even weeks.

2. Ammo taking up inventory space.

This is annoying, I agree. Simply solved by having extra quiver slots that can only hold arrows. If you have like 5 slots you can decide to either have 5 stacks of basic arrows to make sure you won't run out any time soon or have some special types you can switch between. The stack size can be changed on player feedback.

3. Depletable ammo would make the archetype less viable so it would have to be buffed to balance it.

In most games, the fact that you can use the weapon from range is the balancer. Melee weapons don't run out but you will have to be close to the enemy and thus be more prone to damage. Attacking from range will be more safe but it will consume ammo. From what I've seen ranger will be a high damage class anyways so damage won't need to be buffed further.

4. Running out of ammo mid combat.

I can't remember the last time that happened to me since I always keep a close watch on my ammo count and get more as soon as it has a risk of running low. So if I did run out and died cause of it I would have deserved that. And Ashes doesn't limit rangers to just bows, you could have a backup dagger incase you do run out.

5. How will you get ammo when you just started the game?

At first I thought of giving a set amount at start to begin with, but there will probably be some dumdums who waste it all without knowing how to get more and no backup melee weapon so that's not enough. Another option is to add a base skill that generates arrows. This would help with the previous point as well. For example:

Ranger skill (Placeholder name)
Tier 1: Create 10 basic arrows. Can only be used when quiver is empty, if the arrows are not used up in 30 sec they disappear. 30 sec cooldown.
Tier 2: Create 20 basic arrows. 30 sec cooldown.
Tier 3: Create 30 basic arrows. 30 sec cooldown.

Assuming you can shoot 1 arrow per second, tier 3 would equate to an infinite quiver. So if players really don't like gathering basic ammo they can use up some skillpoints. You would still need to buy better arrows.

Atama

Chaostastic wrote: »

I will be running ranger as I do in most games. Honestly I would be disappointed if there was no ammo in the game. Ammo management can be fun mechanic and it would create a whole new profession. Imagine the amount of business you would get as an arrow merchant. Selling different types of arrows, some tipped with potions.

Let me go over some of the good points I saw in this thread.

1. Bows already have a repair cost and needing to keep up with ammo would add another form of maintenance.

Honestly I wouldn't mind having both but if one needs to go I'd much rather keep ammo.

Of course you would. A bow doesn’t break and need replacement when you run out of arrows.

That’s why the idea of bows not needing repair hasn’t been suggested seriously. That would really overpower them if they become the weapon type you never have to replace. I suggested maybe they degrade slower, but all gear needs to have the risk of breaking for the system to work properly.

EmoNagger

Please PLEASE no ammo, god no they are nothing but pain for my storage.

This is fantasy game let us shoot arrow from thin air, it is magic and I don't need to explain it.

Sangramoire

They can easily make an ammo system similar to Runescape, ammo would basically not take any more space than a sword would and some skills may not use any ammo. I think it would bring a good dynamic into the game using certain types of arrows for certain content or for certain effects in pvp like healing for some of the damage you deal or poison damage or maybe a chance to slow someone or something. Though I believe I heard that AoC will not have auto attacks which means it would have to be balanced so that some abilities will use more ammo than others and some might not at all. There could also be certain magical weapons that do not require ammo or have a chance to save ammo that you use.

Damokles

It would be nice if Ammunition could be an equipable item. You start out with "Splintered Arrows" that deal 1-3dmg per shot. You can then buy or craft new types that you equip instead.
They would not have a certain amount, you would just have them equiped until you find better ones.

Kyraax

I vote no ammo unless for a specific ability.

lunarsky

Having ammo adds to the immersion but as a former hunter in wow that had to craft or buy my ammo constantly before raids etc it did get cumbersome after a while. It made old school Ranger in FFXI very cost-prohibitive as well. Nowadays I prefer systems where you don't need to carry and buy ammo.

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