Civilization vs wilderness (node level balancing)

Disclaimer: As a community there are a great many things we do not know about nodes or how the "content" will be distributed as part of the world building. For all I know this might already be what the devs are doing (I think there is a strong possibility of that). With that in mind the following is just a suggestion on how I personally believe would be a good way to spread "content" to provide balance in the "relevance" of each node levels.

Concern: Metropolis citizenship for the win everybody else loses
There is a concern in the community that a level 6 node (metropolis) is absolutely where you will want to be because of how great they are. There is certainly a vast array of reasons or advantages to be had in being a citizen of a metropolis (of your preferred type). So much so that some wonders why would you ever leave and go elsewhere when all the good stuff is available right here ? Why would you gain XP elsewhere and support some other nodes when you could be supporting your node instead ?

Some say because you wont be allowed in metropolis to begin with. There will be a maximum number of people who can obtain the prestige to be a member of the "cool club" (metropolis citizenship). Forcing all others to go to some other nodes. But if that is all there is to it then level 5 nodes are effectively little more than the consolation prize for the losers who failed to join a metro. Level 4 nodes being little more than the consolation prize to the losers of the losers. How far down this chain can you go before you start wondering why you are even playing ? Are villages destined to be little more than the refuges of casuals and new players ?

Prestige is in the walls of great halls but gold and adventure is in the wilderness
But what if there was immense value to be had in wilderness ? A node 0 should be an area nobody cares about and for good reasons. There are 0 NPCs there and no NPC means absolutely no quests right ? But by very design node 0 areas would tend to be the furthest away from civilization in obscure unexplored regions of the world. The perfect place to send adventurers discover and gather rare and mysterious herbs or explore dark caves containing valuable ores but that are guarded by mighty mythical beasts. Those are wild areas where the most feral of monsters have retreated to and where the closest inn bed is disturbingly far away.

Now doesn't that already start to sound like an area players would like to go ? But it gets better. What if that is where you are sent to when you take on that epic quest from the metro ? There is an encampment (node 2 under dominion of metro) not to far away from the great wildness (node 0 under dominion of metro) that can serve as a "staging point" for a party/raid/guild with the bare minimum of services. This is where you start the quest which then direct you to a nearby expedition where the few npcs there gives you the final pointers toward the end quest in the wild dangerous area (node 0).

Outpost of vanguards and adventurers
If you end up spending a lot of time in that area questing, raiding or even just farming valuable rare resources, you may want to set up base in the nearby village. If only to have proper storage and a place where you can prepare a caravan. For that purpose, a freehold is probably ideal here. You could process the raw stuff there and caravan condensed refined goods instead. A tavern in a metro is cool, but the proximity buff are the most useful near the prime "hunting/farming grounds". That is also where the high paying customers will hang out. Those are all good reasons for "power players" to prefer villages in the boonies to center of civilization metros. The available spots in a village are also more limited and sieging a village is way less expensive than a metro. Its plenty tempting enough if you know it is full of rare valuable resources farmed nearby. However likely guarded by a bunch of "power players" so beware.

But what about the unique bonus of metro citizenship ?
Well if we take a scientific metro for example, if you already have unlocked the recipes you needed and already obtained the artisan certifications you needed why do you need to stay there for ? Maybe as a high end crafter you need high end work stations that are only available there. But if you are a gatherer or processor why are you still there ? Teleport ? You can't teleport resources so isn't that useless to you ? Isn't living near your preferred "farm ground" more advantageous ? Housing in a village is significantly cheaper so it's easier to immigrate around the world as it evolve and resources shift and move around or the market situation change and something else is more tempting to farm.

But what about the exp of the metropolis ?
Isn't sending a significantly portion of players away dangerous ? Metropolis have dominion over roughly 20 % of the world. Whatever you do in this world one of the only 5 metropolis is getting XP for it. So long as you stay within the immense territory of a metropolis it will get your XP and it will even get your tax money. Metropolis is also where magnificent mansions and glamorous guild halls will be. It will also be home to the best active crafters and as such that is were processed goods of all types will have to end up. If that is where the best items/gear are made then that is also where the best place to shop will be. Perhaps in nearby cities (lv 5) or towns (lv 4) for reduces taxes and/or housing/business fees. There is no need to worry about the prosperity of a metropolis so long as it's domain itself is prospering. Which in turn provide the governing body of the metro a vested interest into providing support to it's vassals.

But what about new players ?
On launch day when the divine gates unleash a tidal wave of 50 000 players, the areas near the gates are very likely to develop first. Even if a portion of players insist on immigrating as far away from the gate as possible. There is a limit on how much 5000 players spread across the world can compete with 45 000 players in raw XP generation no matter how much they no life the game. The centers of civilizations are very likely to be nearby the gates and those would be the starting areas where the wilderness and "raid content" isn't to daunting. Even if level 0 node would tend to be far, because of node destruction there is bound to be some right in the middle of a civilized area. Providing hunting grounds for leveling players. Meanwhile players at end game will always have plenty of reasons to live in, hang around or visit high level nodes.

Housing crisis
Players who are done using a node to unlock character progression would be encouraged to move his/her citizenship elsewhere and giving a chance to a newer player to unlock progression as well. This is where citizenship tickets might be needed as you can have a freehold elsewhere and move your citizenship elsewhere without selling your metropolis housing. You could get in a weird situation where there is no housing available and yet few players are actually citizens. I say that a good way to handle this is if the number of housing owner is greater than the number of citizen... then that difference is how many citizenship tickets you make available. With the goal of having as many citizen as there are housing (even if those are spread across different players). Tickets would naturally increase in price according to node development and how many citizen + housing owner a node have.

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Comments

BobzUrUncle

I am not sure what you mean by a 'concern in the community'. We have been hashing this out for years, and there is not really a concern. There is risk vs reward. If it turns out that a Metro is in the way, it will be sieged. Boom, metro gone. Already balanced.
When the huge wave of players start off, there will not be any Metros. So, it will depend on where players go and what they do before we even know where they will be. And since Intrepid has said it will be weeks before a Metro pops, you will have lots of time to figure things out.

If you would like to know more about the nodes, please check out the wiki: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nodes

Xenotor

that Only a limited number can be part of the cool club is part of the design.
If you are in a level 5 node then siege the level 6 node that is your parent node and level your node to level 6 afterwards.
Metros are also big loot boxes for successful attackers.

The entire system is made so people want to attack the high end nodes while at the same time, these living there want to defend it.

That beeing said. Having high end rare ressource spawns far away from the high end nodes would be cool and work well intro the design of the game.
You may just have gathers some legendary ore. But to turn it into a weapon you need to bring it to the level 6 science node that is 3 hours away.
A lot can happen during that 3 hour caravan travel.

Warth

This topic has been discussed for years upon years. Mostly resulting at the point, that there is no real problem as it is both by intent and design. Close second was "we don't have sufficient information" to have any meaningful discussion on the topic.

Your post is mostly based on assumptions as well, assumptions that aren't even supported by tidbits of information provided by IS, but solely pulled out of the air

Xenotor wrote: »

loot boxes

lootboxes in AoC? GG ded game

Warth

Xenotor wrote: »

That beeing said. Having high end rare ressource spawns far away from the high end nodes would be cool and work well intro the design of the game.
You may just have gathers some legendary ore. But to turn it into a weapon you need to bring it to the level 6 science node that is 3 hours away.
A lot can happen during that 3 hour caravan travel.

Resource spawns aren't tied to the node system but to the geolocation and biomes of verra.

A metropolis in the desert might be close to the preferred spawn of a legendary mineral, but certainly not close to the preferred spawn of a legendary tdpe of wood.

This should happen naturally assuming that there'll be a somewhat even distributions of preferred zones for valuable ressources

Shaladoor

Warth wrote: »

Xenotor wrote: »

loot boxes

lootboxes in AoC? GG ded game

I think you misread what Xenotor said.

@Zhab I hear your concerns, and see where you're coming from. I don't share those concerns, but I understand them.

Not everyone will get to be a part of the "cool club". And that's fine.
It's possible not everyone will get to be a citizen. And that's fine.

There's going to be limited supply of things in the world, and that's also OK. A limited supply of items, gear, or even housing makes those things all the more worthwhile to obtain. These things aren't meant for everyone to have. If you want them, you'll have to work for them.

But look at it this way: citizens pay taxes on their property. Non-citizens don't have to pay taxes. There are perks to being a non-citizen. Plus, as a non-citizen, you are free to join a node siege on any side of the siege. Being a citizen has its perks, but also has its drawbacks. Don't be too worried about it

If it's something you really want, I think you'll find the motivation to make it happen. But it won't just be handed to everyone, and I think that's a good thing.

I do see your point on level 0 nodes compared to level 6 nodes months down the line. Why would anyone want to visit these nodes? I've thought of an idea that level 0 nodes should be rich in gatherable resources while level 6 nodes very dry in gatherable resources. This would promote players to travel to these lower level nodes in order to find the best farming. It would also force them to travel great distances in order to bring them back to the big city markets, thus helping to facilitate caravans and PvP. How boring would it be if players just hopped right outside the gates of a level 6 node to gather and then jump right back in to sell it?

I've also thought about Underrealm nodes. It might make the most sense to make these underground metropolises in level 0 nodes, and as far away from above ground civilization as possible. Of course, balancing would be needed. But if the Underrealm nodes don't change as the above ground nodes do, then it would make the most sense to develop above ground nodes as close as possible to Underrealm metropolises, for the obvious reasons.

Anyways, still too early to really tell how it will all play out.

Warth

I do see your point on level 0 nodes compared to level 6 nodes months down the line. Why would anyone want to visit these nodes? I've thought of an idea that level 0 nodes should be rich in gatherable resources while level 6 nodes very dry in gatherable resources. This would promote players to travel to these lower level nodes in order to find the best farming. It would also force them to travel great distances in order to bring them back to the big city markets, thus helping to facilitate caravans and PvP. How boring would it be if players just hopped right outside the gates of a level 6 node to gather and then jump right back in to sell it?

you don't "visit" level 0 nodes. Heck, you don't even know where they are. You just are there, because there is content important to you, spawned through the high level nodes, in which's vicinity the the level 0 node lies

Xenotor

Warth wrote: »

This topic has been discussed for years upon years. Mostly resulting at the point, that there is no real problem as it is both by intent and design. Close second was "we don't have sufficient information" to have any meaningful discussion on the topic.

Your post is mostly based on assumptions as well, assumptions that aren't even supported by tidbits of information provided by IS, but solely pulled out of the air

Xenotor wrote: »

loot boxes

lootboxes in AoC? GG ded game

What i mean is that the moment the siege declaration is set down on a node, no one can move their resources out of it.
So lets say you have 50.000 iron ingots stored inside the node.
It gets sieged and the attacker wins.
At least part of the 50.000 ingots will go as loot to the attacker.

Thats what i meant with loot boxes.
I should have picked a better name but i really dont know what else to call that.

In the end its High risk vs high reward to live in a high level node.
Sure you are close to the big services but at the same time you can loose your stuff.

In the end we have to test it out in Alpha 1 and 2

@Shaladoor
I believe the underrealm nodes can deverlope just the same as above ground.
Underrealm and above ground combined are 103 nodes.
+15 Castle nodes. ( 5 castels with 3 nodes each)
So a total of 118 nodes.

Shaladoor

Warth wrote: »

you don't "visit" level 0 nodes. Heck, you don't even know where they are. You just are there, because there is content important to you, spawned through the high level nodes, in which's vicinity the the level 0 node lies

Where does it say you won't be able to tell where a level 0 node is?

And where does it say that nodes will spawn content in surrounding lower level nodes?

Zhab

I feel like the part where I mention "limited membership to the cool club" completely overshadowed my post even if it was more of a comment in passing than anything else. I'll be sure to be extra careful about what I mention in my intro next time.

The subject of the thread was meant first and foremost as way to have all node levels be relevant to the players instead of only select few areas. If more nodes are relevant you have more viable choices. If you have more viable choices you also get to make more meaningful decisions. If I was a game developer designing this huge MMO world I would like if there was a reason and/or meaning in all of it instead of just a potential. Even if the meaning and/or value of each node varies greatly from server to server.

In not saying how the nodes or resources spawn work and I don't claim to know either. I'm making a suggestion here so of course I'm making assumptions and of course I'm making stuff up.

@Warth It is cool for resources to take into consideration the biomes for about where to spawn. But biomes are big places. Beyond that it could also consider node levels. It makes sense to me to position the rare stuff outside the well beaten paths. I think the devs want to encourage exploration and this would do just that.

@Warth Nobody has to know if a node is level 0 or where they are. Only the system needs to know that and it does. Players are not sent to nodes but rather points of interest on the map and/or landmarks. Beyond the woods south of here there is a lake. To the west of that lake flows a river. At the point where the river turns south walk north west from there into a small wood. There you shall find an encampment. Speak to Jonathan, tell him Nicolas of the scholar academy sent you. He'll tell you where to go from there.

Warth

Shaladoor wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

you don't "visit" level 0 nodes. Heck, you don't even know where they are. You just are there, because there is content important to you, spawned through the high level nodes, in which's vicinity the the level 0 node lies

Where does it say you won't be able to tell where a level 0 node is?

And where does it say that nodes will spawn content in surrounding lower level nodes?

There are crossing ZOIs. It's easiest to see here:

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Nodes#/media/File:NodeLockouts.png

A low level node, will be affected by both the ZOI of the lord node and ZOI of the Vassal Node.
The Vassal Node's Zone of influence is, at least partially, also in the ZOI of the parent node and so will also be affected by it.

Also, i don't know the exact quote anymore, but that has been known for ages. IS don't want us to have the background information on the node system, like for example how many people are meant to level a node, how much exp it takes exactly, what contributes which amount of EXP, where the Nodes are nor even to what ZOI you are contributing right now.

@Jahlon might know more about it or even have the link at hand.

I guess, there could be a way to extrapolate the location of a locked out Level 0 ZOI, by the density of low level mobs in a certain area, but that's mostly speculation.

Also, to add to this: There isn't 103 Node Spots. There is 103 initial ZOIs in which there are 2-3 possible Node spawning points, as stated on the Ashes 101 Website referencing the World of Verra article.

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