NO ALTS!!

Alright so I totally understand why Steven wants to lock players into single classes. He wants players to be recognized and known for their class however I think its a massive mistake and here is why.

As a content creator and even if you aren't a content creator your name is the most important thing you will ever wield in a game. Your name is your reputation and your branding. In every MMO I've ever played a major thing that always bothered me was Alts. Whenever I'm playing Alts I'm stuck using a different name on a different character and it sucks. Visibility, presense and name recognition is of paramount importance. Always seeing me online and involved in the community is empowering and motivating to everyone connected to my community. I want my name to be recognized everywhere I go. I'm one of those insane hardcore players that Maxes out an Alt for every single class in the game so I can learn, understand and exploit each classes weaknesses in PvP. Its the reason I was unbeatable for two years in WoW. In my opinion every single MMO in history has failed to recognize the importance of a players name. I want to achieve absolutely everything in the entire game on one character. I want to be every class. I want to be able to go back to my home base and switch my class to an alternate class and gear load out seamlessly just the way that I would change to an alt instantly so that I can constantly keep mastering and testing new endless things. Or maybe I had a bad night in dungeons and I'm just angry and want to go switch my class to something else and mindlessly grind my face off. Normally I would have to waste my time on an alt with a different stupid name that no one recognizes when they cross my path in the world. Why limit your hardcore player base that want to sink ungodly hours into the game to achieve things that most people don't care in the slightest about. Why do I need to play on alts if I want to master all of the professions. If people really want to sink that insane amount of time into the game to master and enjoy all that it has to offer why force people to do that on stupid alternate names and characters that no one knows when you can be known by everyone for always being online and recognized as the master that you truly are. Why limit the progression that an account can achieve. As a content creator is very important that I can play everything, experience everything, test everything even if it takes me years to do. I'm going to do it with alts anyways so why force me to do that when its unnecessary

Some people just want to lose themselves forever in an endless grind of seemingly unobtainable achievements and why would anyone want to stand in their way. Like an immortal vampire living through the ages to master everything that life has to master. Dare to go where no MMO has gone before. This is the game I would like to play

-Vash

Edit to answer common Fears:

Why not play an alt and use a Surname:
Because I don't want to segregate my accomplishments. I want my character to be the culmination of my achievements and I want people to see my name and immediately know my reputation as a character in this world. Surnames could be anyone who wants to steal your name but my name is my name and what I accomplish and the relationships and reputations I forge in the game means the world. Community is everything

I love alts and I want to play alternate role play personalities and/or not be recognized:
And you absolutely should be able to play an alt if that is what you love and what makes you happy. Just as I should be allowed to play one character instead. At the end of the day if my idea isn't implemented I'm going to have a million alts and master everything regardless to fulfill my need and the only difference is that this is game is going to an inferior product to one that would have instead given us that choice to play the way we want to play. A name matters and the relationships you form matter. Alts take away from that connection which is why alts should be a choice

Why would anyone want to master every class and profession:
Because that is what elite obsessed no lifers do my friend. Its what makes us feel satisfaction. What makes us feel accomplished. Makes us feel powerful and proud and allows us to challenge, compare to our peers which pushes us to be the best that we can be. Isn't it enough that gamers have to deal with being judged in real life. Do we really need to justify what makes us happy in the online space of our peers where we are all a bunch of gamer nerds. We should be supporting each other and make a point to be understanding when someone says they love or want something. If my idea isn't hurting anyone then why does anyone care

This idea will ruin player interdependence and the trade market:
That is just silly. Of course it won't. Players are going to play alts no matter what. They are going to master every class and every profession. Its only a matter of time. My idea isn't going to change that fact at all. What my idea does accomplish is create a vastly superior system of convenience but also a character that you are infinitely more connected to and invested in. The greater the investment the greater the feeling of pride and connection. This is what keeps hardcore players obsessed with a game. Always having another challenge to chase, another goal to conquer, another reason to keep on playing forever. The fact is that a player will be far more recognized by his name because he spent 100% of his play time invested and interacting with the community on that one character and this creates a more connected community and reputations and of course and better trade market built on reputation and trust. Everyone wins

But people are going to roll need on every piece of gear:
LOL... just no. Obviously it goes without saying that if you are playing a tank and you roll need on non tank gear then people stop playing with you forever because that is just nonsense unless you are playing just with your friends and they have no issue with it. That is what player name recognition is all about. Be a good person, become known for being a good person. Be a douche, be known for being a douche. There is no hiding behind an alt name when there is only one you. Reputation is everything

This will invalidate religions and allow you to skip content:
Of course not. Every time you switch to a new character class its basically the same as creating a brand new character that you have to start from the ground up. Its essentially creating an alt without fragmenting your accomplishments to your name and your account. The point is not to skip content. The point is to use one name to play the game an infinite number of different ways.

There is no way to Role play being able to switch classes or races:
Really? LOL We are in a world of magic. Travel to your castle. Go to your magic sanctum. Use your magical runestone of power to cast and enchantment containing all of your power and experiences so that you can magically create a new body for yourself with a new Race and class to travel world in search of new challenges and masteries. When you tire of that adventure return to your sanctum and use that enchanted Gemstone to reclaim your powers locking away your newly obtained class abilities within the gem for when you next desire. Role play is just you ability to tell a beautiful story

Why not just make it so that all your alts are actually a unified character with a single name(no surnames):
I totally agree 100% This is a genius idea that I wish I had thought of. Those who paid for early access to reserve a name get to use that name which is obviously a big deal for content creators and they get to attack the game with a million alts while always maintaining your name and your branding. This is the best idea I've seen so far. As a content creator the branding of a name is so huge

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SepiDN

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

There is a certain economy around leveling alts that FF14's system completely removes. I think the need to make multiple characters in MMO's is just fun. Having alts puts more roles into the world so that you are more likely to find a healer, tank, bard, etc. Without removing the character value of alts.

So I agree that some things should at least have the option of being account wide. However, tying your base archetype to a changeable thing is too far. Alts are generally important and shouldn't be overlooked. They also change unfair situations you would otherwise be permanently stuck in.

Again how is it taking it too far? You have to put in exactly the same amount of hours. More roles in to the world?that is also something that will happen with subclass system with excactly the same way.
If YOU think making alts is fun you can keep creating those. Subclass system is not removing alts.

There is one thing that I can think could be effected by this which alts might not get as easily as subclass would.

Clan benefits.
As fitting all your alts to one clan with high level benefits might be an issue if there is small player limit. Thus your alts wont be as strong as ypur main.

Vashramire

Alts are a double edged sword in some cases. In a game that takes a lot of time to level, you hope that you chose your class/profession right the first time and you may want to test others to see if they are a better fit if you aren't 100% happy but it can feel punishing. The same kind of punishment as if you could have several alts and you feel the need to upkeep them just to maintain a certain quality of life (like having all the professions maxed and specialized).

I think they want you to be the character you choose in the world with a more permanent feel. They want an economy and community that work together. Having alts (or at least too many) can mess up the markets and make things easier for gold farmers and such. Or on the combat side since fast travelling isn't a thing really, you could have 1 character in different parts of the map building up other nodes or ready to raid or pvp that could add to zerging that they have stated they are against. You should be able to find other classes or professions to help you out instead of having to do it all yourself and your contribution to content should feel meaningful, which can feel diluted with alts.

Then there are people that just want to collect or min/max everything and that is the joy for them. More power to them but I don't think that is the core of what they have planned for this game and I don't think every game should cater to everyone.

Spartanz

Im 99% behind this idea, and I'll go into why, and even give examples

#1 Runescape. Games that allow you to master everything, with no shortcuts, are great.
You can be 99 woodcutting AND fishing AND mining AND ect... Thats something that shouldnt be undermined. You can head to a bank, and put on mage gear, or melee, or range, or a hybrid. THAT is character freedom. And names like Zezima will echo through gaming for years to come. THAT is character recognition.

#2 ArcheAge. Yes..ArcheAge....You can master Several profs, but not all (Unless you used enough snowflakes). You could change your class, gear, skills on the fly, and master those classes on ONE character. You could accomplish hundreds of achievements, on ONE name. And people knew and recognized you for it.

#3 Guild Wars 1. One of my favorite MMOs EVER. A game that I feel got the skill system down perfectly. *ahem* GW had a main character, with a bunch of alt characters. When added a friend, it would add the entire account, so your friends could track you, but not the public. Rank 1 in arenas were only recognized for the TOON, they achieved that on. Titles were only given to the character it was achieved on. Recognition was given to the name, not the account. I held top 5 Hero Battle rank for almost 2 years. And only a handful of people knew my non-HB character names. THAT isnt character recognition. This is the problem with "Family names" While friends can still see where and which character your playing, the public has no clue who you are.

Gamers that want to be known, recognized, feared, praised, attacked, defended, greeted, scorned..you name it...Deserve to be. If he wants to accomplish everything, on one name...and he pulls it off. Why shouldnt he be KNOWN throughout the server for it? He deserves to be...Don't you think? Why should he have to name all his characters "Spartanz (alt)" Nobody wants that...Especially if its 45 days...4-5 hours a day...to max adventurer level...Per character. Can you imagine needing to play Spartanz-alt for hundreds of hours..You'd completely separate yourself from "Spartanz" The public may even think you've quit the game. Only a handful of players that have you added as a friend, would know that you're just grinding out the 6th alt...

Intrepid has stated they want you to feel accomplished. They want you to feel notoriety..
Alts wont achieve that. Separate names won't achieve that. Isolating accomplishments won't achieve that.
I want people to see the name Spartanz and know exactly who they're up against. I want them to check my build and go "shit Spartanz is playing his necromancer today" Or "Spartanz is just healing today? HA we're saved!" If IS pulls off the "home region" stuff, and players are truly somewhat tied down to an area, I want people to know the name Spartanz...Not Spartanz, Fluffy Bunny, Necrodancer, Applesauce123, RaindbowSkittles....ect And we shouldn't have to use the name Spartanzalt1,2,3,4,5,6 in order for people to know who we are.

As for the counter arguments, I get it. And it definitely needs to be a hassle to swap classes. Or It needs to be a system where in order to master smelting, you have to "archive" a different processing skill. Or use the ArcheAge approach, allow players to expand their mastery numbers, but send them on a rigorous journey to unlock an extra slot. Maybe even make a journey for every lifeskill/class that needs to be completed before unlocking once you've selected the soft cap. There should be restrictions, there should be limits on how many masteries you can have at once...But give us the option. Give us the freedom to make that choice.

Micromegas

Personally I don't see the point of allowing alts except that company gains additional income from players by making second character, because every choice you make towards developing your character loses its meaning since you can create another character that is more proficient in something than your main. For example: mastering another crafting profession, when the game allows only one per character.

cyanideinsanity

Micromegas wrote: »

Personally I don't see the point of allowing alts except that company gains additional income from players by making second character

That depends on the game. Ashes will give a currently unknown, described as "comfortable", amount of character slots per account. However runescape for example is one such game as you described, with only having 1 character per account.

Raidri

My alts have always the same race and the last syllable is different to the main. For me, it's enough.
And maybe in WoW Vanilla with a small server population anybody noticed your name. But these days nobody whould cares.

PlagueMonk

TeamVASH wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

EvelynChills wrote: »

@PlagueMonk hypothetically I make three characters: character 1 is a tank/miner, 2 is a cleric/smelter, 3 is a dps/blacksmith. I can now circumvent profession interdependence and fill multiple combat roles any time I want by switching between alts, how does a well designed class changing mechanic exacerbate the issue that already exists?

Well you appear to have the basic metallurgy side covered but who is going to make your armor and weapons? And what about cooking? I assume you will want those food buffs. What about sailing? You will still need someone to build all your boats. What about Jewelry making? You will need those trinket stat bonuses no? And I haven't even mentioned them all.

So if you want to be truly independent in crafting it's going to take many more than just 3 but why when you could sell/trade what you are good at to someone else for what you are lacking? And there we have the need for a player driven economy with everyone working together (just like it real life ) Yes, you CAN do it all yourself but it will be a hell of a lot of work.

I think you are confusing the issue. The point is that my system isn't creating new problems. Any issue that my system has already is an issue. People creating 64 alts to master every class and every profession is going to happen. Its only a matter of time. Is that a problem? No its not. Its just the nature of hardcore gamers. No lifers need more to challenge and entertain them because they have more time to invest and that is what makes them happy. The fact is that none of this matters. People who organize will blow the lone wolves out of the water. Everyone gets to play the way they want to play and be happy with their amazing gaming experience. As long an idea isn't hurting anyone then there is no problem

I'm not confusing anything and this was simply a response to EvelynChills post that they would be self sufficient which is clearly not the case.

But a truce.....I've thought about it and will recant on the crafting portion.....IF.........each craft tree after the first becomes increasingly difficult. And when I say difficult I mean like by at least factor of 3. So the second tree would take 3x longer to master and the 3rd would be again 3x harder (so 9x more difficult than the first). This would better simulate how difficult it would be to master everything but you could do it if you invested enough time and resources. I would bet most would be fine with 1 and some would call it good after 2. Only a select few like you would take on the challenge of all 3.

I still don't agree with being able to learn all classes though and there's still the issue of changing race which should never happen.

Beekeeper

Class switching is just a dumb, videogamey sytem. It never made sense to me why FF14 insists on having classes, but allows you to switch out your mage brain with your lancer brain on the fly, as if you're being replaced by a version from an alternate dimension that's a completely different competency level as you are.

You can already freely decide what weapon you choose, what armor you wear, what secondary class you want to push your archetype towards, your religion, your organization, your citizenship to a node, ALL OF THESE THINGS that can be changed and reset if you really, really want to.

The whole idea of "choices mattering" is that you can't just go back whenever you want. If you can freely switch, you can never truly commit to one choice, because you won't lose anything by deciding to go for something completely different. Maybe it's different for someone who just commits to grinding out 100% of everything, but on the road there, you have no identity, you're just a wibbly-wobbly everyman, with a cassette deck for brains.

The only thing right now that you can't go back on is your race, and your primary class. How is that not enough?

Eburin

@PlagueMonk the point wasn't to say that they would be completely self-sufficient, it was to say that someone leveling multiple classes on a single character wouldn't be any less dependant on other players than someone leveling multiple classes on separate characters. Also, the crafting part wasn't even the strong part of the argument since you probably won't have enough character slots to max every profession anyways but if the max number of characters is eight then you can literally max every combat class and you only need four slots to have one of each role (tank, heal, dps, support) and be able to fill the role gap whenever you want.

@Beekeeper if their goal is to have choices matter then they haven't accomplished their goal; you CAN switch whenever you want, by switching between different alts whenever you want. You don't have to commit to one choice and you don't lose anything by trying other classes since you can just go back to your other character that will be exactly the same as they left it. If they want choices to matter they should probably limit you to one character per server, which I would honestly prefer rather than having a veneer of "choices matter" but actually they don't as long as you play on multiple characters.

Also, the reason people complain about class is that it is the single most impactful decision that affects how you play the game but you have to make it before you even start playing the game when you have the least amount of information. Compare it to how I understand the artisan skills to work (based on recent interviews/dev discussions and what is currently on the wiki). Steven has described being able to progress to a certain degree in many artisan skills before making a permanent choice about which one you actually want to commit to and master. The game allows you more time and flexibility to make an informed choice about which type of resource you want to walk up and press "f" next to then it does about your class which has an enormous impact on how you play the game.

Hystorix

Inothing like you propose ... I think that’s a bit much ... but ... it would be a fun single server to have for those that would li,e one server like that but not for the rest Of the servers ... but still only being able to have one primary class and live with the choice unless you re roll and delete

Ravudha

EvelynChills wrote: »

The game allows you more time and flexibility to make an informed choice about which type of resource you want to walk up and press "f" next to then it does about your class which has an enormous impact on how you play the game.

Just because it's not on the same character, it doesn't mean you can't spend as much time as you want to try out different classes to make an informed choice.

Eburin

@Ravudha thank you for agreeing that letting people level multiple classes on multiple characters is functionally the same as letting them level multiple classes separately on the same character and that making it a "permanent" choice doesn't actually increase player identity or how meaningful the decisions are

Caeryl

EvelynChills wrote: »

@/ thank you for agreeing that letting people level multiple classes on multiple characters is functionally the same as letting them level multiple classes separately on the same character and that making it a "permanent" choice doesn't actually increase player identity or how meaningful the decisions are

It’s not the same at all dude, not functionally, and not in spirit.

Characters take a lot of time to level. Each one will have different base stats based on race. Each class will have different quest options available to them. Each race has different quest options available to them. Social organizations offer different quests and features and you can’t join all of them.

Requiring different characters to experience more beyond your first choices is intentional design. Each of your characters will have options available to them. If you want different options, if you want to tank instead of dps or gather instead of craft, you need different characters.

You’re just gonna have to get over it. Get comfy with rolling alts or accept that you can’t 110% an MMO on one character.

bloodprophet

If you go back and watch the early streams from KS and right after they were asked this question a lot. They hemmed and hawed for a while before making the decision.

I see both side of this. I would be ok with being able to swap your archetype but keep crafting how it is. And if they change it to allow being able to switch it should be costly in gold/mats and only doable in town every 3-7 days to make the choice matter. Make people think ahead not just face roll new class every five steps.
We also don't know if their are any in game societies that are class bound and how they interact with the players.

Gear being agnostic is a great thing and have stats is important. Storage of gear for each roll will and should be different. Someone mentioned another game that left the gear stored on that spec. I think it should not be and you will need to figure it out.

For me I see both sides and either is fine. Surnames and clan type stuff as long as it is not forced is whatever for me.

Ravudha

EvelynChills wrote: »

@Ravudha thank you for agreeing that letting people level multiple classes on multiple characters is functionally the same as letting them level multiple classes separately on the same character and that making it a "permanent" choice doesn't actually increase player identity or how meaningful the decisions are

Er...all I said was the game does give you all the opportunity to make an informed decision by trying out different classes on different characters.

That doesn't equal thinking multiple classes on multiple characters is functionally the same as multiple classes on one character. I was talking about a very specific experiential factor, not the entire holistic experience between the two scenarios. *shrug*

Eburin

@Caeryl I'm already over it and I already plan to have multiple characters if there are multiple classes that I really want to play. My problem is that none of these arguments that invoke player identity or meaningful choices hold any water when there are mechanics in the game that allow you to circumvent any restrictions that get implemented. Right now all of the "restrictions" are illusionary and if Intrepid wants the choices to *actually* matter then they should make them *more* restrictive so that people can't have a max level tank and a max level cleric and a max level whatever else they want all on the same server and switch between them whenever they want, willy nilly.

Caeryl

EvelynChills wrote: »

I'm already over it and I already plan to have multiple characters if there are multiple classes that I really want to play. My problem is that none of these arguments that invoke player identity or meaningful choices hold any water when there are mechanics in the game that allow you to circumvent any restrictions that get implemented. Right now all of the "restrictions" are illusionary and if Intrepid wants the choices to *actually* matter then they should make them *more* restrictive so that people can't have a max level tank and a max level cleric and a max level whatever else they want all on the same server and switch between them whenever they want, willy nilly.

If you don’t see the need to max and gear out multiple characters (with 45day 1-50 leveling time) and limited profession progression as meaningful restrictions, then more power to you. Trading between characters is somewhat restricted so you’ll have to rely on others either way, which is the point. If you try to do it all solo, you’re going to be inconvenienced.

Kyraax

I want alts. I love alts. I am an alt-aholic.

TeamVASH

Spartanz wrote: »

Im 99% behind this idea, and I'll go into why, and even give examples

#1 Runescape. Games that allow you to master everything, with no shortcuts, are great.
You can be 99 woodcutting AND fishing AND mining AND ect... Thats something that shouldnt be undermined. You can head to a bank, and put on mage gear, or melee, or range, or a hybrid. THAT is character freedom. And names like Zezima will echo through gaming for years to come. THAT is character recognition.

#2 ArcheAge. Yes..ArcheAge....You can master Several profs, but not all (Unless you used enough snowflakes). You could change your class, gear, skills on the fly, and master those classes on ONE character. You could accomplish hundreds of achievements, on ONE name. And people knew and recognized you for it.

#3 Guild Wars 1. One of my favorite MMOs EVER. A game that I feel got the skill system down perfectly. *ahem* GW had a main character, with a bunch of alt characters. When added a friend, it would add the entire account, so your friends could track you, but not the public. Rank 1 in arenas were only recognized for the TOON, they achieved that on. Titles were only given to the character it was achieved on. Recognition was given to the name, not the account. I held top 5 Hero Battle rank for almost 2 years. And only a handful of people knew my non-HB character names. THAT isnt character recognition. This is the problem with "Family names" While friends can still see where and which character your playing, the public has no clue who you are.

Gamers that want to be known, recognized, feared, praised, attacked, defended, greeted, scorned..you name it...Deserve to be. If he wants to accomplish everything, on one name...and he pulls it off. Why shouldnt he be KNOWN throughout the server for it? He deserves to be...Don't you think? Why should he have to name all his characters "Spartanz (alt)" Nobody wants that...Especially if its 45 days...4-5 hours a day...to max adventurer level...Per character. Can you imagine needing to play Spartanz-alt for hundreds of hours..You'd completely separate yourself from "Spartanz" The public may even think you've quit the game. Only a handful of players that have you added as a friend, would know that you're just grinding out the 6th alt...

Intrepid has stated they want you to feel accomplished. They want you to feel notoriety..
Alts wont achieve that. Separate names won't achieve that. Isolating accomplishments won't achieve that.
I want people to see the name Spartanz and know exactly who they're up against. I want them to check my build and go "shit Spartanz is playing his necromancer today" Or "Spartanz is just healing today? HA we're saved!" If IS pulls off the "home region" stuff, and players are truly somewhat tied down to an area, I want people to know the name Spartanz...Not Spartanz, Fluffy Bunny, Necrodancer, Applesauce123, RaindbowSkittles....ect And we shouldn't have to use the name Spartanzalt1,2,3,4,5,6 in order for people to know who we are.

As for the counter arguments, I get it. And it definitely needs to be a hassle to swap classes. Or It needs to be a system where in order to master smelting, you have to "archive" a different processing skill. Or use the ArcheAge approach, allow players to expand their mastery numbers, but send them on a rigorous journey to unlock an extra slot. Maybe even make a journey for every lifeskill/class that needs to be completed before unlocking once you've selected the soft cap. There should be restrictions, there should be limits on how many masteries you can have at once...But give us the option. Give us the freedom to make that choice.

See now this is pro veteran MMO monster who gets it. I think you have to be an absolute monster in order to fully appreciate the need for this to be a part of a game. I have experienced all of these games and every example Spartanz gave. I remember a single mother named LIGHTNING back playing runescape when I was in highschool. She had the highest stat in every single skill in the game. It blew my mind and to this day I have not forgotten her name. The TeamVASHalt is the stupidest name ever and we've all been forced to do it. Its awful and it murders your Roleplay identity or any pride you will have for that character. The only thing I disagree with is saying that this process needs to be a hassle. I disagree fervently. The fact that you are switching to a new class and essentially creating an alt that has to start all over again from nothing is punishing enough. I see no reason to make this process worse otherwise we are just going to make alts which we can switch to instantly with no downsides. This system has to be equally as seamless

Noaani

@EvelynChills

I think you have perhaps only looked at the one aspect of this.

The social and religious organizations in Ashes are a fairly key content component. They are something players will need to work at and work on, but they will have rewards.

If there was a notion of players being able to swap out primary classes, these organizations would need to cater to all character types somewhat evenly, as they are not something you can just swap in and out of.

Players would be upset if the game allowed them to change their primary class at will, but then forced them to hold on to their religion and social organizations without being able to swap between them easily - as the way the game is likely to be, there absolutely will be organizations that are better suited to a mage and others to a tank, and yet others to a rogue. The entire premise of the OP's post - which is that he wants to "Max out an Alt for every single class in the game so I can learn, understand and exploit each classes weaknesses in PvP" falls dead flat when you consider that the builds people will be using will include these social and religious organizations.

Suddenly, in order to make all primary classes on all characters possible, you are talking about a fundamental redesign of a core content component.

Again, I am not saying this isn't something that should be discussed - I am saying that any serious discussion about it really needs to factor that in. If that is not being considered, then the discussion is simply not serious.

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