DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

cleansingtotem wrote: »

Hes a proven liar

Where is this proof?

I am an accused liar, sure. Not a proven one. There is a distinct difference, and I can not combat the accusations until there is an attempt at offering said proof.

Then link your wow character. Back up your claims about wow raiding. Otherwise your just talking out of your ass. Don't respond if your not going to back up your claims, I don't like talking to lairs.

You're going around in circles.

If you can't debate a notion based on what the notion is, then you can't debate that notion at all.

Put another way, argue the point, not the person. If all you have is the ability to argue the person, then you have no point to argue at all.

I can't even see what you could think linking anything like that would achieve. Either I link something that is in the top dozen or so guilds and you shut up without actually discussing the topic, or I link something that isn't even in the top 100 and you dismiss what I have to say without even discussing the topic.

Basically, all you are trying to do is avoid discussing the topic by playing identity debating.

Once again, your WoW is showing - you should be a little embarassed about that.

Noaani

GodsThesis wrote: »

Anyways, I am relatively on the fence on DPS meters, more so indifferent because I got a strong feeling there will be DPS meters whether it's allowed or not. I am just curious to see if the studio can successfully prevent them, even though I am very doubtful. It's a scenario I'd like to ride out.

That is an interesting reason to not want a combat tracker built in to the game.

The only real downside is that once a combat tracker for the game exists, it is too late for the game to be any different to the other dozens of games that have a somewhat closed API but have combat trackers. Once players have one running, they will have no reason to change - and this is especially true if a combat tracker is a perk that would mean turning something else down. If it were added to the game like this, why would any guild take that perk that offers them something they already have, when instead they can take something they don't have?

This is an end that I myself am perfectly happy with - third party combat trackers being the defacto. The problem is, there are many people in this thread (and by extension, many more not in this thread) that don't want to see this - people that are generally fine with people like me having a combat tracker and using it in a responsible manner, but who are not fine with people like some of the other posters in this thread having it and using it in an irresposible manner.

I am, however, still on record with saying that a combat tracker for Ashes will be ready to use during beta. I am unsure if I want to post an image of it here first, or PM one to Steven first (not that I would expect he reads PM's, for the most part).

Spartanz

Noaani wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Having said that I definitely want to know on what factors this decision was made, because the more I think about this decision the more I think that the "prevention of toxicity" is just the selling reason.

It absolutely is.

It is a completely fabricated reason with absolutely no actual truth to it.

If it is what Steven and his team believed to be true, then this game is infact doomed to mediocrity and obscurance. You can't believe something that false on a topic and still be successful at it.

I think the real reason behind not allowing meters is to knock down the goal of playing "good" and to have players focus mainly on the open world opportunities and interactions.

This may well be true, but leads to other issues.

If the goal is to get people focusing less on playing "good", then why are tehy developing raid content in a way where the better you are at it, the better your rewards? That seems completely counter-productive if the idea of the game is to knock down that notion of players feeling the need to play the game well.

Then you have the notion of Intrepid wanting content that is difficult to the point where only single digit percentages of the population are able to take it on successfully. If that doesn't require players to play the game well, I'm not sure what does.

While your comment makes a whole lot more sense for why they would want to prevent combat trackers from the game than Intrepid's stated reason, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

First off, You are hit and miss

Stevens reasons for not allowing a dps meter is they want people to LEARN first hand, and not have a chart teach them raid mechanics.
They ALSO think it leads to toxicity when you only look at the dps meter and exclude people for sure. Which, despite using the meter for constructive criticism, people will definitely use it to exclude as well..
While a dps meter/combat mod would 100% improve raid timings, and therefore rewards, they want people to see the game, not the chart. If you see the game, and truly learn from the game, then you'll be fine.
They see the dps meters as a kind of cheat code to success. If you dont have to experiment, and the only testing you need to do is look at ur ACT (Did I get that right?) then it's too easy.

People will already be making websites for meta tracking..
People will already be making YouTube Guides for raid parties..
People will already be LFG 1 summoner/bard, 1 ranger/cleric ect..

A lot of opinions here are totally valid, but feel extremely biased without considering the other side.
It feels like a lot of the hardcore pro-Combat moders aren't even trying to picture a game where they actually have to look at the boss...They rely on a !!!Dodge!!!! popup to tell them to dodge. And using the "Theres a lot going on during the fight you NEED these popups" is just lazy. The difference between the players that can see, and manage a fight without those popups, and those who rely too heavily on them, should be massive in Ashes.
And that's what Steven and IS want.

Tragnar

Spartanz wrote: »

A lot of opinions here are totally valid, but feel extremely biased without considering the other side.
It feels like a lot of the hardcore pro-Combat moders aren't even trying to picture a game where they actually have to look at the boss...They rely on a !!!Dodge!!!! popup to tell them to dodge. And using the "Theres a lot going on during the fight you NEED these popups" is just lazy. The difference between the players that can see, and manage a fight without those popups, and those who rely too heavily on them, should be massive in Ashes.
And that's what Steven and IS want.

You confuse meters and combat assist mods - yes I am definitely behind the idea that there should be no combat assist addon. This means that there should be no API functions to create custom screen text etc.

Meters should be what they actually are - a window into the past to see what happened. If you see meters only as an evaluation of someone's worth then you are doing the same thing as quoting something out of context. You don't judge a book by the cover and the cover of meters is dps placement.

Spartanz

I was trying to address both, not really trying to assume they were the same.

People will use dps meters, to set benchmarks, and exclude those who dont hit those benchmarks. And for the Hardest of core raid groups, I see no problem with that. Rank 1 should include the best of the best.

The problem is there are players out there, that will see a dps meter and be toxic about it.
There are players that will use a dps meter for self improvement, and self set goals.
But DPS meters are the same as setting a timer and seeing how fast the boss dies. Swapping out classes/builds changes the TTK, and THAT is enough. If you NEEEEEEED to know you did 1% more than a different person....I'd slot you into that hardcore group, or a toxic group. Id put money down that those players fit into one of the 2.

I'm not entirely against a dps meter unlock. I like the idea of guilds being able to unlock a post raid dps check. I like the idea of a military node having it in its region of influence. I don't think it should be hard coded into the game for every raid, at all levels.

But it needs to stop at dps meter/healing meter, aggro meter. Anything beyond those 3, takes away from Steven's ideals of Learn the fight, and adjust.

*EDIT*
I also don't think it should be a live meter. I think it should be a post raid. Completed or failed. If theres a Raid History UI, or maybe even an npc or something in the Node of influence you'd need to go interact with to view it. It shouldnt be a UI on screen, throughout the raid.

Tragnar

Having meters only for top guilds that want to push is completely fine with me - as I said many times in the history of this thread.

However I am concerned about your assumption that players that abuse meters in toxic way will stop being toxic by removing their tool that they use for expressing their toxicity.

Ever heard of "fixing the root cause, not just the symptom"?

Noaani

@Spartanz

Spartanz wrote: »

First off, You are hit and miss

Stevens reasons for not allowing a dps meter is they want people to LEARN first hand, and not have a chart teach them raid mechanics.

A combat tracker does not teach you raid mechanics. It can't.

All a combat tracker can do is tell you what has just happened in the encounter - what abilities were used and what effect they had. Players still need to know what they are doing.

They ALSO think it leads to toxicity when you only look at the dps meter and exclude people for sure. Which, despite using the meter for constructive criticism, people will definitely use it to exclude as well..

The thing is, combat trackers may be used in an act of toxicity, but they do not cause them - or at least not many of them.

If someone in a group points to a combat tracker and says another player is shit, that person was probably going to find a reason to call someone in the group shit anyway. The combat tracker is not to blame - it didn't start the toxicity, and it didn't make that toxicity any worse than it would have been.

While a dps meter/combat mod would 100% improve raid timings, and therefore rewards, they want people to see the game, not the chart. If you see the game, and truly learn from the game, then you'll be fine.
They see the dps meters as a kind of cheat code to success. If you dont have to experiment, and the only testing you need to do is look at ur ACT (Did I get that right?) then it's too easy.

People will already be making websites for meta tracking..
People will already be making YouTube Guides for raid parties..
People will already be LFG 1 summoner/bard, 1 ranger/cleric ect..

A lot of opinions here are totally valid, but feel extremely biased without considering the other side.
It feels like a lot of the hardcore pro-Combat moders aren't even trying to picture a game where they actually have to look at the boss...They rely on a !!!Dodge!!!! popup to tell them to dodge. And using the "Theres a lot going on during the fight you NEED these popups" is just lazy. The difference between the players that can see, and manage a fight without those popups, and those who rely too heavily on them, should be massive in Ashes.
And that's what Steven and IS want.

A combat tracker can not do any of these things, and this suggestion from you makes me think you have not read all that much of this thread (60 pages, I don't blame you).

The prevailing suggestion from this thread is for Ashes to add a combat tracker directly to the games client, that is a guild perk.

This combat tracker would be offered to guilds at the same time as many other perks - including ones that would be more useful to PvP guilds, casual guilds, solo guilds, crafting guilds etc, so that the only guild type that would consider a combat tracker to be the most valuable thing would be a guild attempting to take on top end PvE content.

On top of only these guilds wanting to pick the combat tracker, it would also only work on members of that one guild - this means that if you are not in a guild with a combat tracker, no one at all can track your combat, ever, which completely eliminates the potential for a combat tracker to be used for (note the use of the words used for, not the cause of) toxic player encounters.

Then there is the possiblility that has been suggested of making this combat tracker only offer up information at the end of the encounter, either when the encounter resets after tthe raid was unsuccessful, or when the encounter is killed.

Finally, there has been the suggestion that this tracker only work on raid encounters, so that these people can not gain an upper hand in single group encounters.

Now, Steven has read this suggestion, and commented on it.

When you look at this suggestion, the notion of not having it due to toxicity is completely and totally nonsensical. It is a totally baffling suggestion, and so can be nothing more than a fabrication.

Additionally, when you look at this suggestion, you will quickly realise that players first ever possible interaction with a combat tracker would be when they join a guild looking at top end content. This would mean that everything these players have learned up to that point was done without a combat tracker, but they were recruited in to that guild based on something other than their objective performance (because the guild can not gauge a players objective performance until that player is in the guild).

This would then mean that all guilds with this combat tracker would need to be willing to offer up at least an amount of training to new recruits - you simply can not expect players to be at the performance level you want when they haven't had access to tools such as this - and they haven't had that access until joining your guild.

Additionally, since there is no information offered to players until the encounter is over, there is nothing to look at in combat other than the encounter.

Basically, this suggestion has taken every potential argument that I have come across in regards to combat trackers, and completely neutralized it.

However, if you can see any further negative effects of combat trackers that could exist with this suggestion, feel free to post them and maybe we could refine this suggestion even further (this is how it has been formed and altered in the past).

However, this suggestion is why when I say that the stated reasons for not having a combat tracker are complete bullshit, I am not "hit and miss", but rather, I am right on the money.

There really are literally no logical reasons to not have this - other than wanting to obfuscate combat mechanic information from players, and thus removing an aspect of player agency while in combat.

Tragnar

Noaani wrote: »

There really are literally no logical reasons to not have this - other than wanting to obfuscate combat mechanic information from players, and thus removing an aspect of player agency while in combat.

I would be actually more ok if the game did not provide any numbers at all (even there is the danger of players datamining them anyway) rather than just prohibit the analysis of such numbers. Feels like a spit in the face and kick in the gut.

Tarnish

If you create a MMO, You should also put in a DPS meter. This goes hand in hand. I have heard so many debates over the years on games not wanting them for good reasons. However guilds and players always create them and use them for also good reasons. This is a old debate from every MMO in history. Lets learn from history and just place a DMG and Healer Meter in the game or allow players to create them for the game. They will be used and players in PVE guilds or conducting PVE content will be expected to have one and use one. Biggest reason is to spot a under performing DPS or to figure out if the strategy is not optimal enough. It would sincerely suck to know its a dps issue but be completely blind to who or what is the issue and just wipe for weeks to finally the problem player couldn't make it to the raid and you realize he was the issue. More likely inexperienced leaders making blind calls or accusations because they can not figure out the problem. Just does not work.

Bring the meters into the game and continue the path of greatness AoC!

Demidreamer

If you need a meter for whatever reason you have, you are not as good as you think you are. You need a tool to get from point A to point B. Tools make life easier, doesn't mean your good at whatever task without the tool.

Tragnar

Demidreamer wrote: »

If you need a meter for whatever reason you have, you are not as good as you think you are. You need a tool to get from point A to point B. Tools make life easier, doesn't mean your good at whatever task without the tool.

If you need a meter for building a house you are not as good as you think you are. You need a tool to get from point A to point B. Tools make life easier, doesn't mean your good at whatever task without the tool.

If you need a meter for measuring how far you can shoot an arrow you are not as good as you think you are. You need a tool to get from point A to point B. Tools make life easier, doesn't mean your good at whatever task without the tool.

If you need a meter for selling trade goods you are not as good as you think you are. You need a tool to get from point A to point B. Tools make life easier, doesn't mean your good at whatever task without the tool.

Demidreamer

Tarnish wrote: »

Lets learn from history and just place a DMG and Healer Meter in the game or allow players to create them for the game. They will be used and players in PVE guilds or conducting PVE content will be expected to have one and use one. Biggest reason is to spot a under performing DPS or to figure out if the strategy is not optimal enough.

Thank you for pointing out that if guilds only have a meter, everyone will have to live with a meter.

Tarnish wrote: »

Biggest reason is to spot a under performing DPS or to figure out if the strategy is not optimal enough.

Noaani

Demidreamer wrote: »

Thank you for pointing out that if guilds only have a meter, everyone will have to live with a meter.

Everyone in the guild will have to, sure.

Thing is, guilds are nothing if not a collection of like minded players. If combat trackers are a guild perk, then members of guilds with combat trackers will all be people that want to use them.

If you are dead set against combat trackers, you wouldn't want to join a guild that has one.

Demidreamer

No. Every player will have to live with the common knowledge. We live in an era where Information travels fast. It doesn't matter if I shun facebook, i still hear about, that is the world of today.

Rodya

There will still be detailed logs right? So at the end of the day, you can look back and see who did the most damage on every fight and every spell they used etc.

Noaani

@Demidreamer

Demidreamer wrote: »

No. Every player will have to live with the common knowledge. We live in an era where Information travels fast. It doesn't matter if I shun facebook, i still hear about, that is the world of today.

The Facebook analogy is bad, as not everything on Facebook is true (indeed most is not). Everything that comes from a combat tracker is an objective fact - literally all a combat tracker is able to do is provide people with objective facts about what has just happened in the game.

I can't see how knowing objective facts is bad. I can't see how sharing objective facts is bad.

Now, I'm sure you will want to reply with "people will feel they need to run the builds that others say", and you would be right. There absolutely are people that would feel compelled to run builds that others say are the best.

This is what a meta is.

Thing is, a meta will exist with or without a combat tracker, and those people that feel compelled will feel just as compelled with or without that tracker. The tracker isn't the factor at play here (Look no further than Archeage). The only way for any person to not feel compelled to run the build that others think is what they should not run is for that person to simply not care what others think - and again, combat trackers are not a factor here.

The only difference is that with a combat tracker, we are able to say that the builds these people feel compelled to use because others have said they are good (which once again - will happen with or without a combat tracker) actually are in fact good. Without a combat tracker, those people will still feel compelled to use them, but the builds themselves may not be that great (this was the case in GW2).

Now, maybe I'm missing something here. Maybe you have a specific reason for suggesting that actual objective and factual information should be kept out of the game and the general community and instead replaced with subjective player opinion - if so I'd really like to hear it.

To me though, the world is going through a period of not valuing facts, of not promoting facts, of not caring about facts. The world is objectively worse off because of this - one need only look out the window to see the evidence of this.

I don't want any game I play to be just one more aspect of life that is devoid of facts, and I have a hard time understanding why others would not want those facts to be generally accessable to people in such a game if they wanted access to those facts.

Tarnish

The DPS and Healing Meter is just a half step away from the logs. I can tell you now. there will be DPS meters used. Its just a intelligent thing to do. No good guild that raids is going to go in there blind. This will of course have Pros and Cons however when you look at all the MMOs and how things worked out with all of the other MMOs they all ended up with DPS meters for a reason. imagine being the guy under performing and you call off and the guild literally has to replace you because without a dps meter we cant figure out how to help you. We can't figure out what spell or spells you should or should not be using but someone joined when you called off and all of the sudden we can down the boss. instead of helping this member. It becomes elitist and uneducated on top of that. At least in a world with a meter we can explain or work with someone to improve. This will also let a raid leader figure out how to tight nip a strategy in case of a difficult encounter with various mechanics and a tight dps check. For example my guild killed Dread Master Styrak on Nightmare in 2016. We had Meters and we changed strategy various times. We did every change possible to optimize dps and we were still off and unable to kill him. So we figured out we needed to find a way to 1 tank the boss. This was not easy but we found a way. Then we still wiped because having our OT tank dps he was not performing like a regular fully optimized dps. We figured out through weeks of progression how to kill by using the meters and adjusting strategy multiple times. We ended up killing him once our OT was able to pull the dps of a fully optimized dps and we 1 tanked the boss. However without a DPS meter that boss likely would not of been killed. On our server we were the only guild to kill him in that time era. This boss at the time was incredibly hard, healers had to dps and manage their resources for a difficult fight to heal. Fun fight and it brings back joy til this day. Meters are needed.

Tragnar

Tarnish wrote: »

The DPS and Healing Meter is just a half step away from the logs. I can tell you now. there will be DPS meters used. Its just a intelligent thing to do. No good guild that raids is going to go in there blind. This will of course have Pros and Cons however when you look at all the MMOs and how things worked out with all of the other MMOs they all ended up with DPS meters for a reason. imagine being the guy under performing and you call off and the guild literally has to replace you because without a dps meter we cant figure out how to help you. We can't figure out what spell or spells you should or should not be using but someone joined when you called off and all of the sudden we can down the boss. instead of helping this member. It becomes elitist and uneducated on top of that. At least in a world with a meter we can explain or work with someone to improve. This will also let a raid leader figure out how to tight nip a strategy in case of a difficult encounter with various mechanics and a tight dps check. For example my guild killed Dread Master Styrak on Nightmare in 2016. We had Meters and we changed strategy various times. We did every change possible to optimize dps and we were still off and unable to kill him. So we figured out we needed to find a way to 1 tank the boss. This was not easy but we found a way. Then we still wiped because having our OT tank dps he was not performing like a regular fully optimized dps. We figured out through weeks of progression how to kill by using the meters and adjusting strategy multiple times. We ended up killing him once our OT was able to pull the dps of a fully optimized dps and we 1 tanked the boss. However without a DPS meter that boss likely would not of been killed. On our server we were the only guild to kill him in that time era. This boss at the time was incredibly hard, healers had to dps and manage their resources for a difficult fight to heal. Fun fight and it brings back joy til this day. Meters are needed.

How dare you to take the easy way out! You should have improved individually by doing the mechanics better! Cheesing a boss by doing more dps what an antifun toxic way of playing, thankfully this will not be possible in Ashes!

Tragnar

Steven quote:

IMO when you choose to exclude someone due to their performance or build (which happens often, not always) you are choosing the easiest path to success. This path is more easily available to groups that parse combat data through dps meters.

The desire to obfuscate (or make less prevalent by not offering this feature) so that groups are encouraged to grow together and help one another become better by more old school/organic methods of trial and error, efforts in watching other people during the raid, by failing repeatedly until success is possible. Now, could people use meters to aid in this task? Yes, but in my experience it isn’t used in this way..more often it is an exclusionary tool designed to separate players.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/235176#Comment_235176

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

Steven quote:

in my experience

The three words there are the issue.

Steven's MMO history is arguably deep in a number of games, but it is not wide.

Much like players that get kicked from a failing group in WoW, he is blaming combat trackers for something that is not the fault of combat trackers.

He needs to listen to the people he has hired - and if they are telling him to try and keep combat trackers out, he needs to create a work atmosphere where people feel free to disagree with the boss - as there is no point hiring experience if you are going to not let it speak.

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