Why i will not be playing AoC

Hey Everyone,

I heard about this game recently and there is a ton of good that i saw. Unfortunately as much as i enjoy destroying people in PVP i enjoy PVE more. The answers toward PVE and some of the examples i have seen sound cool but do not fulfill my wants as someone who enjoys PVE and more particularly Raiding. I was really hoping AoC would check all the boxes but it fell short. It checks alot of boxes and even adds boxes. However, this game appears to be falling short on some important points. Its stance towards Addons which is essentially a stance against players who want to make the game better or easier in a sort. I am typically a minimalist in this area so i was not too worried about it. I also think any addon ideas should be brought up now and maybe they can just add those features. An example of a feature i would like to see is a map of sorts you can right strategy on for the team to look at and also be able to mark on. This is now a addon in WoW. I use it a lot because its nice to be able to draw a encounter or upload the map and draw out our strategies. However DPS meters and healing meters have been lumped into that. Its almost a disrespect to someones intelligence to even debate the topic because its essential. Its not even that its just essential but if you don't want to see it so you can immerse yourself into a game. an example would be questing or exploring. Just TURN IT OFF. DPS meters do not have to be displayed 100% of the time. PVE events were just displayed on taking a castle where loot would go to the guild with the most dmg or be given by dmg output yet there is no dps meter. This is honestly a huge let down for them to go over both of these points nearly back to back without notice of the logic contradicting itself. i for one would like a option to hide my UI as well so i can do just that. immerse myself while questing or hanging out at a tavern. I have a feeling class balancing may also be a reason why the dps meter is something the developers are against dps meters. ESO had issues with OP builds plaguing a diverse class selection. They dont have to worry about it if they don't have meters. well not as much anyway. The third issue is more so because i am a community leader and i do not want to be forced to have a particular size community. I have had huge communities and small. I do not want to have to recruit and manage a 40 man raid team or larger. The best example of where a game got it right would be WoW Wrath of the Lich King where they allowed 25 or 10 man raids. Options and scaling works wonders. I understand because i saw more of the game of why the game is being tuned this way. The hope is that there is a huge community in this game. However with its not so friendly PVE content. I think the communities will not meet exceptions at max level. Which will break the meta being created. Things can change as the game is in alpha but from what i am seeing from the small community here and the streams. This game is going to have everything i wish WoW had. However it wont have what WoW has. WoW with all of its faults still has a community and raids with a lot of effort put into them. They have made mistakes with the last expansion but they are also now opening up legacy servers. Its hard from a PVE stand point to pick AoC over TBC or a possible good retail expansion or even WOTLK. PVP is still good in WoW and i enjoy it a lot. I love alot of what i am seeing here however i am getting flash backs of the last WoW killer, the one before that, and that. I think AoC is a step in the right direction. i like the thinking outside of the box and mixing some PVE and PVP.

I may hop into a stream or 2 and check on the development but i think the issues are too deeply placed. Not to mention real feedback is hard to find. People are easily distracted by pretty things and i for better or for worse have a good way of getting to the meat and potatoes.

cheers,
Tarnish

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Comments

Marcet

I can tell this guy was arguing about DPS meters, got hurt and emotional so he wrote this.

Go cry in your bed not here, bye bye.

Plixen

Do you log onto every game's forum to tell people why you won't play it?

Hope they stick to their decision of no addons and no damagemeters.

Warth

DarkxGlaive wrote: »

@Tarnish I hope you didn't purchase then leave! That would be horrible...

Not likely, considering he joined 4 days before that. @DarkxGlaive

Nice to have you in the community btw, enjoy your stay.

Anonymous332

I think OP should learn what Paragraphs are before ranting on the Forums

Tarnish

Good Evening,

I wanted to give some good feedback on AoC and help make it actually the next WoW killer and not just another MMO that comes and goes after a couple of months post launch.

I wanted to address some of the comments but not go into too much as this community seems riddled with people who do not want new ideas or new age things in this MMO. This would be insanely long if i were to do that. Just know i read them and none of you have swayed any of the arguments i have on MMOs and what they should and should not have. I wish i could get your trust that i am very knowledgeable of MMOs and can often tell when one will flop or be successful. I know it is something that is earned over a long period of time and being correct about topics.

For those of you who do not know, I have raided in multiple MMOs at the highest difficulty and have been top US/World/server level player for 15 years and have been playing for 20+ years.

My feedback is simple, I see some big flaws that should not be capable. I understand the games still in alpha however as we all know MMOs have 2 legs to stand on, PVE and PVP. I like PVP however PVE is MY passion. If any MMO is going to be successful it needs both. Every example and most of the future content appears to have PVP involved with the PVE. Anyone who has played a MMO should know why that does not make sense. Some is good, too much is bad. Some of the ideas i really like however the thought of others seem fun in theory however having experience with the topic i can see the cons of it and know how it will play out long term.

Addons as i mentioned in my last post are generally used to fix something in the game that does not work or can be improved. I stated i am a minimalist in that area but hope they put in DPS meters as in 2020 there is no good reason not to have them. I read some of the comments however i was seeing a lot of bad points and as much as i would like to address everyone's bad examples or taking things i said and not reading my entire point on the subject, This is for the Devs to hopefully read coming from someone with a lot of experience in PVE content. I have read comments stating that they want chaotic raids. There will be plenty of those don't you worry. There will always be raids of various skill caps. Some may use meters, some may just be there to mess around and hang with the team. I do want Raids that can be competitive where you benefit from min/max playing. I would like a map for marking and drawing out battle plans, I want a UI that i can customize in game similarly but better than SWTOR. I want small competitive raid sizes that make sense and are fun strategically speaking. I want to have to think about my raid comp not just invite a ton of players. I do not mind pvping for some PVE objectives but i want pure competitive PVE raids that give the best loot at the most difficult level. I have lead communities of every size and i am not against having a large guild. I just have seen the success of smaller raid teams in MMOs. It just seems better for MMOs to adopt a smaller raid team. It doesn't effect large communities and it benefits smaller communities.

WoW fan boi inc. I have used WoW the King of MMOs for alot of my examples because i imagine it is the most commonly played MMO as its popularity would give. If AoC is successful it will pull in players from WoW to achieve greatness or it will fall short like many before it. I am not asking for a WoW 2.0, I am trying to give the game real feedback so it can be better. i hate to say this but glorifying everything the devs put up will not make it better. They need strong feedback from a different community and i am the kind of player who comes and plays long term and will deep dive. I also am from the community that they are currently heavily lacking. I am looking for a game that i will play for the next 10 years. I need strong PVE content. PVP will not sustain me. As the PVE scene knows Iron sharpens Iron. I am very hard on WoW and am very disappointed in the game and that is why i have other MMOs and their raids on my resume. I like transparency and i am not 100% giving up on AoC as i stated before i would be keeping an eye on it. AoC needs PVE content to be successful and WoW despite like i said constantly disappointing me, it does have the best raids i have ever encountered. The only game to have content i can not clear quickly although quicker than most. however if i go farther into this topic i will be forced to rant about my issues with WoW and that would likely not help AoC much. This post is to help AoC become better. Most players will not know what is better or not. Leaders and good ones at that are the ones that will know. I have watched and predicted on many games and have yet to be wrong. AoC has some true potential. I want them to succeed and i would love to quit Classic WoW and WoW all together for a better game. Many games have had potential in the past. Lets not waste this opportunity fighting over things that honestly do not hurt the community. Lets not fight about things that every good MMO has. Lets take the good and get rid of the bad. With that note, lets fight soon about topics you think i am incorrect on 1 by 1 on a separate post i make where i can truly deep dive and show you guys why these things are essential or a positive change or positive things to have.

Feel free to comment on a topic that you think will hurt the community/game and i will make a separate post breaking it down Thoroughly from a Raid leader and Raiders perspective towards PVE content mostly. Raid sizes, Meters, instanced raids vs world bosses, PVE world objectives and crafting etc. I have plenty of knowledge and i do not mind getting nitty and gritty with any of the topics. This will help me break down alot of comments in one discussion vs trying to answer multiple questions or concerns about multiple topics in 1 discussion.

Please post comments of what you think should not be in the game or what you agree with me on. I will make a separate post in great detail. If you support and are afraid of getting hated on, feel free toss me a message and lets brain storm a good middle ground or ideas we can recommend for AoC.

Sincerely,

Tarnish

bloodprophet

Woot multi boxing at its finest.

What hard information do you have and link the source please on where this is NOT the game Except for meters and addons. Both of which of their own multi-boxing threads.

Ricayu

@Tarnish I love your comment about looking for a game for the next ten years. I am interested in AoC because of the potential long playability. I master crafting in every game I play, and that alone caught my interest as trades in this game is similar to Star Wars Galaxies. There were cases that five years later, ore still had not spawned that was as good as when it came early on. I want to play this game long term too and am also hopeful that this game will take PVE seriously. I have my concerns too: for example will pvp overtake people in the open world raids as the percentage the devs have given us is 80% open world and 20% instanced. That is concerning as PVE could be overtaken by PVP.

Also in the video from the August overview, Steven showed a small version of the castle siege with a raid boss in it and said the most DPS would get the castle. DPS will obviously be important and no way to measure that same DPS seems contradictory.

I too have my concerns, I understand where you are coming from. I have spent so much time like you on games that came, were really cool and then you hit max level and then there was little or next to nothing to do except PVP. I have been searching for a new MMO that I can play with longevity like I did with SWTOR, WoW FF14, Phantasy Star Online, AION, etc... the list goes on.

I think the community is going really hard on your posts, but I appreciate your constructive feedback and you make good points, though I am not giving up on the game before it comes out. I am hopeful that the devs listen to us and enrich the game with our feedback.

GrandHarfang

Oh, you again.

Tarnish

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Tarnish I felt your post was fairly respectful but you are complaining about a game that has 1.5+ years to go for development and you are saying that the issues that you see are too deeply rooted for you to give it a chance. You are also failing to recognize the reason for not having dps meters. JUST TURNING IT OFF is not the solution for the players that feel a dps meter would force a different community feeling that we want to see in this game. I come from a dps meter background where I have removed players for not being where they should be......now it will be a breath of fresh air to not have that as a tool. A tool that requires every "top tier" guild to use it to measure players. Instead, as a guild leader I have the opportunity to work with the whole raid to figure out what it is we are doing wrong.

You also fail to see the point of why they have decided on 40 player raids without the option for 10 mans or other variance. This game is bringing back MMO roots of community building and making a name for yourself. Guilds that have 20 people in them and just run 10 player end game content are quite literally one of the biggest fails an MMO can have. They take away from precisely what IS wants out of this game and if you look at current wow now....it's dead because of it.

I don't see why people think "wow killer" is still a thing. Wow is dead. Addiction is one of the biggest reasons they have subscriptions. The other is nostalgia. Had they not released wow classic, the numbers would be a whole lot different. I tried coming back to current wow and it is such a failed abomination of a game compared to what it used to be. I couldn't play WOW out of spite because they are just capitalizing on that nostalgia to keep their heads afloat. Don't even get me started on the community for blizzard games. Talk about cancer.

I don't expect a response, just had to clear things up. Have a good one.

Hi, wanted to squash this because you came off pretty respectful. for WoW and raid sizes. WoW popularity and Subs went up to record numbers each time they adjusted raid sizes. TBC wen to 25M and WOTLK went to 10M or 25M. WoW began to decline in Cata which is where i quit do to LFR.

Now for the DPS meter as you posted. Big flaws is that you replaced your dps instead of helping get better with that DPS meter. DPS meters are tools. Just because someone under performs on dmg. It is very complex. If there is a support role you must take everything into account. However lets focus on the same example without a dps meter. How would you fix your issue without even being able to figure out what the raider is doing wrong. OR which one is causing the issues, or how many are causing issues. If you had a dps meter you can dig into his logs, even if you have never played the class before and at least give him some advice that could benefit him. Without a dps meter you're blind to the issues and can not properly lead your raiders to success. I know alot of people have bad experiences with elitist guilds. i assure you at the top of the mountain most of us are very kind and just try and help educate everyone on how to perform at their personal best.

Raid size directly will effect how many teams assemble and from my experience more teams playing together generate more fun. Smaller and easier formed groups tend to lead to more interactions and fun. Fun keeps people around. In classic WoW right now the game has the community we missed however the raid size is the biggest down side and even the most successful guilds struggle with it. I just posted a second post to this one requesting topics to deep dive on. please comment a topic and i will surely deep dive and really thoroughly try to cover all the issues and concerns with a topic so that i dont have to speak on multiple topics in one post.

Thanks dude,

Tarnish

Tarnish

Ricayu wrote: »

@Tarnish I love your comment about looking for a game for the next ten years. I am interested in AoC because of the potential long playability. I master crafting in every game I play, and that alone caught my interest as trades in this game is similar to Star Wars Galaxies. There were cases that five years later, ore still had not spawned that was as good as when it came early on. I want to play this game long term too and am also hopeful that this game will take PVE seriously. I have my concerns too: for example will pvp overtake people in the open world raids as the percentage the devs have given us is 80% open world and 20% instanced. That is concerning as PVE could be overtaken by PVP.

Also in the video from the August overview, Steven showed a small version of the castle siege with a raid boss in it and said the most DPS would get the castle. DPS will obviously be important and no way to measure that same DPS seems contradictory.

I too have my concerns, I understand where you are coming from. I have spent so much time like you on games that came, were really cool and then you hit max level and then there was little or next to nothing to do except PVP. I have been searching for a new MMO that I can play with longevity like I did with SWTOR, WoW FF14, Phantasy Star Online, AION, etc... the list goes on.

I think the community is going really hard on your posts, but I appreciate your constructive feedback and you make good points, though I am not giving up on the game before it comes out. I am hopeful that the devs listen to us and enrich the game with our feedback.

I am glad to see more PVE players in the forums. I understand you're concern for PVP and PVE conflict. I am hoping for some PVE content to be announce soon. so far everything has had PVP linked to it. I do not mind some of that. I think that PVE players would just like to know they have a place to do what they love to do.

I am not 100% giving up on the game, however things such as DPS are a topic of debate and from a PVE perspective let alone PVP that is kind of hard to imagine they will input PVE content that i am currently look for. I am looking for challenging raids that will keep me busy for 10+ years and the content to be difficult enough to keep me here. A dps meter will be needed if there is going to be such content. I am glad you enjoyed some of the MMOs you listed. I have played many of them too.

bloodprophet

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Raids

Tarnish

bloodprophet wrote: »

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Raids

yeah, unfortunately no new information has been presented to me by that post. I have so many questions on how performance is tracked with or without dps meter or meter in general. How the raids will get harder and how being in the open world works with people around that can easily wipe or mess with your performance. I also still dislike the raid size however with the PVE content being all world bosses this far, it does not give us much room to actually PVE and prove our skills.

bloodprophet

I agree with you on the meter part. Most people only see DPS and fail to see the rest of what is recorded and presented. If only more people understood how to read and use meters it would be less of a concern.
Look at retail wow the vast majority of the player base just sees the one number and it is sad.
Raid size I also see your point and agree. I tend to raid more and PVP sometimes once in a while.
Playing Rift at launch was a ton of fun on a pvp server. Zone event happens and both sides get to the final boss. Big PvP-PvE battle as both sides trying to own the boss and wipe each other out was super fun and is/was better then running in to a loot pinata at the end of an event with both sides working together.

bloodprophet

I think at one point they said there will be some instanced raids. Not sure what or how but I get what your saying.
There is a mega thread going on meters(I am sure you saw it). I posted in your other thread and agree with you on this point. I like to try new builds and mark them out to see what does best and works best for me. I usually play the glassiest of cannons and open world stuff is a straight up dps race. Who can throw up the most the fastest. Survival can be a challenge but not being able to measure and know where I am at will make it more difficult to gauge. Not a deal killer for me but I see your point.

Tarnish

bloodprophet wrote: »

I agree with you on the meter part. Most people only see DPS and fail to see the rest of what is recorded and presented. If only more people understood how to read and use meters it would be less of a concern.
Look at retail wow the vast majority of the player base just sees the one number and it is sad.
Raid size I also see your point and agree. I tend to raid more and PVP sometimes once in a while.
Playing Rift at launch was a ton of fun on a pvp server. Zone event happens and both sides get to the final boss. Big PvP-PvE battle as both sides trying to own the boss and wipe each other out was super fun and is/was better then running in to a loot pinata at the end of an event with both sides working together.

I agree Rift had some good fun and i am not against all encounters with PVP. I just want more content that the top guilds can try and kill that are extremely hard and do not have PVP to mess with them. In some games the raid content is hard enough on its own and takes 500+ wipes to down. I want that challenge without the PVP lol. I like alot of the objectives that mix PVP and PVE because for some of my raiders they were not good at PVP however in a situation where there is both like in AV, the PVE player can focus on PVE objectives while the more PVP skilled players can do the PVPing for them.

Hurf Derfman

A part two??

Your viewpoints are exactly the sort of thing I would expect from the elitist Warcraft raiding manufacturing and processing facility. Right down to the entitlement.

DPS meters introduced exclusion during Karazhan.

Deadly boss mod, or as I called it, "run away little girl" couldn't keep the dps from standing in void zones no matter how many raid members installed it.

When the item score mod was introduced during ICC it made the exclusion and toxic elitism from the dps meter introduction look like sweet apple pie.

During Cata Blizz tried to make raid content with the assumption that everyone will have DBM, and as a result created some if the most unfun dungeons and raids in WoW history. Guilds fell apart players quit for good and LFR was born.

Current year wow a typical guild only lasts as long as the current content patch.

Tarnish

bloodprophet wrote: »

I think at one point they said there will be some instanced raids. Not sure what or how but I get what your saying.
There is a mega thread going on meters(I am sure you saw it). I posted in your other thread and agree with you on this point. I like to try new builds and mark them out to see what does best and works best for me. I usually play the glassiest of cannons and open world stuff is a straight up dps race. Who can throw up the most the fastest. Survival can be a challenge but not being able to measure and know where I am at will make it more difficult to gauge. Not a deal killer for me but I see your point.

yeah, that's a entirely different perspective, its gonna effect how people build and spec their character. Lots of angles and i hope they come to terms with the option would not hurt as much as they think.

Tarnish

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

A part two??

Your viewpoints are exactly the sort of thing I would expect from the elitist Warcraft raiding manufacturing and processing facility. Right down to the entitlement.

DPS meters introduced exclusion during Karazhan.

Deadly boss mod, or as I called it, "run away little girl" couldn't keep the dps from standing in void zones no matter how many raid members installed it.

When the item score mod was introduced during ICC it made the exclusion and toxic elitism from the dps meter introduction look like sweet apple pie.

During Cata Blizz tried to make raid content with the assumption that everyone will have DBM, and as a result created some if the most unfun dungeons and raids in WoW history. Guilds fell apart players quit for good and LFR was born.

Current year wow a typical guild only lasts as long as the current content patch.

I am trying to find where we disagree. There was some tough bosses in Cata, Heroic Rag was pretty fun, the "5man Raids" which got nerfed too early were cool. LFR was why i quit and went to SWTOR and bounced around after i cleared their hardest content. What do you disagree with? i did not ask for Gear score or ilevel checkers. Good players know that Ilvl doesn't mean anything. that has been consistent from even back then at the top of the mountain at least. Sounds like you pugged a lot. Cata and prior i never really pugged however i heard the horror stories.

Kneczhevo

What a well written and passionate post. ☺️ Unfortunately, I see it more as a troll needing a therapy session.

I have no idea what topics you brought up, I don't chase names. I chase comments.

What I gathered (from this thread), you are a PVEer? And you're not happy about your responses to your suggestions? I'm not rereading your other thread.

We all want a great game, period. Some have great ideas, some don't. If your idea is not getting into people's heads, you are doing something wrong or it's a dumb idea. Accept it and move on. Try a new approach, don't cry to the forums.

You come to a PvP community, and expect carebear treatment? Lmao. Get real.

I'm a carebear with fangs and claws. Grow a pair.

Edit: Intrepid/Steven has already stated; they are not making the next WoW killer. So, your first sentence is is invalid.

bigepeen

Tarnish wrote: »

Good Evening,
I wanted to address some of the comments but not go into too much as this community seems riddled with people who do not want new ideas or new age things in this MMO. This would be insanely long if i were to do that. Just know i read them and none of you have swayed any of the arguments i have on MMOs and what they should and should not have. I wish i could get your trust that i am very knowledgeable of MMOs and can often tell when one will flop or be successful. I know it is something that is earned over a long period of time and being correct about topics.

Really hope you're not just trolling with these posts, but regardless, I really think that we don't need separate topics for this discussion... I'm not a mod though.

Tarnish wrote: »

My feedback is simple, I see some big flaws that should not be capable. I understand the games still in alpha however as we all know MMOs have 2 legs to stand on, PVE and PVP. I like PVP however PVE is MY passion. If any MMO is going to be successful it needs both. Every example and most of the future content appears to have PVP involved with the PVE. Anyone who has played a MMO should know why that does not make sense. Some is good, too much is bad. Some of the ideas i really like however the thought of others seem fun in theory however having experience with the topic i can see the cons of it and know how it will play out long term.

I'm not sure what you mean by the first sentence. I understand that your preference is for PvE, however this is very subjective and doesn't necessarily reflect everyone else's preferences. People need to realize that not every game needs to be centered around their passion. We would have a very boring catalogue of games if every game were built to one person's preference.

Not every game needs to have X% of PvE and (100-X)% of PvP content. For example, FFIV basically has non-existent PvP and yet it is the 3rd most popular MMO right now. In fact, there are plenty of popular PvE-centric MMOs right now and I would consider that part of the market saturated. If that's your style of MMO, then please play those games rather than spending effort trying to turn every game into a PvE game, there are already literally hundreds of those for you to choose from. I believe that alternative models to this can be successful, and I like the direction that AoC is going with no P2W microtransactions, extensive crafting content, innovative node systems, naval content, huge player driven economy, player-owned houses, etc... A lot of games with more PvP failed because P2W was implemented and the player population started dropping off a cliff, or games that are just generally low on content in general. The latter won't be a problem if Intrepid just delivers on the scope that they already have planned.

Tarnish wrote: »

Anyone who has played a MMO should know why that does not make sense. Some is good, too much is bad. Some of the ideas i really like however the thought of others seem fun in theory however having experience with the topic i can see the cons of it and know how it will play out long term.

If you are really sincere about your feedback, can you please provide concrete examples for ideas that have obvious cons? I think if the cons were so obvious, then developers would not even consider implementing them in games. It may be obvious to you, but saying that "anyone who has played a MMO should know why that does not make sense" isn't very productive feedback.

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