No.
If you have DPS meter you will make BIS gear/talents tree etc. People who want to play the spec they want, because spells look cool, et they wont be able because they will be forced to play one specific spec which has MAX DPS MAX Tanking MAX healing.
So no. I'm totally against DPS addons or anything simillar to that.
Players who don’t want to follow the strongest builds don’t have to. They’re are perfectly free to play how they want, they’re simply not entitled to succeed everywhere they want. This will be true with combat trackers or without.
I hate DPS meters. If I spill my drink on my keyboard, or go into some sneezing fit while we are raid, my DPS might collapse and I get kicked. This happens.
Simply does not happen there.
It does happen sometimes in pick up raids where people do not know each other - but as soon as you are in a situation where people know you and know your ability, occasional mistakes are ignored - even occasional mistakes that wipe raids.
I am all for debate and discussion, but I am not going to entertain such with people that are not honest in that debate and discussion - and one of these two statements from you is not true.
It is not ok to fabricate an argument out of nothing, nor is it ok to claim that you are experienced on a topic that you are not experienced in, and again, you are doing one of these two.
As to your argument, a few points.
First of all, I do not want Steven to listen to me. I want Steven to listen to the staff he has built up around him - the people that I saw working at Intrepid that made me think this game is actually a serious possibility of being a success.
I didn't come to this game because some random property investor that has played a few MMO's is making it - I came because this game has a team built up of people whose work I have enjoyed for many years. I am here for Jeff and Akil more so than Steven, and I would like Steven to listen to the expertise he has hired.
Second, if you are needing to download something specific to an encounter, you are not using a combat tracker. That, my new friend, is a combat assistant. No one is asking for a combat assistant - and if it were to exist in Ashes I would happily move on to the next game, even if that next game is not even an MMO.
A combat tracker simply tells you what has happened in an encounter - it has no need for anything at all to be encounter specific.
Next, I am asking for a combat tracker built in to the game that is available as a guild perk, in a way where guilds that are not attempting top end PvE content as their primary content type will have something more useful to pick - and also implemented in to the game so that it only tracks combat of people in that guild. This is not my preference in terms of combat trackers - I am perfectly fine using either of the third party ones that I am following the development of.
However, a built in combat tracker that has some restrictions to it (restrictions that can only exist if the tracker is built in to the client) is by far the best option for the game.
Lastly, if you were indeed performing CC, a combat tracker (a good one) will tell me that. It will tell me what mobs you CC'd, what type of CC you used, how long they were CC'd and who - if anyone - broke that CC.
Someone looking at a combat tracker and only seeing DPS is someone that shouldn't have a combat tracker. This is why combat trackers should only be made available to those that actually understand them.
No.
If you have DPS meter you will make BIS gear/talents tree etc. People who want to play the spec they want, because spells look cool, et they wont be able because they will be forced to play one specific spec which has MAX DPS MAX Tanking MAX healing.
So no. I'm totally against DPS addons or anything simillar to that.
In order for you to think this way, you need to either not have thought this through, or you need to think that the game won't have a meta without a combat tracker.
I hate to break it to you, but the game will have a meta regardless of if combat trackers exist or not.
The only way to not feel like you need to use a build that is a part of the games meta is if you are a player that doesn't feel the need to follow the games meta. If you are such a player, you will not care how that meta was formed (with objective data or without objective data), you will simply do what you want to do.
On the other hand, if you are the kind of player that feels the need to follow the meta, you will also do that regardless of how the meta is formed.
So, basically, this is all up to you, not up to a combat tracker.
You and I seem to be talking fruit salad here, not just apples and oranges.
You will already have a combat log, per Steven. All your stats and numbers will be there, you just have to access them. Devs encludes these for their algorithms. You have access, on your client.
I like your idea, as a guild perk for guilds. /Shrug
I have never had to lower myself to use DPS meters. I'm that good. But, my guildies have, and what insues is not pretty. I really feal for pugs, I troll the forums. Nothing positive results from DPS meters. Except epeen sizing.
I don't really care about DPS meters. Genuinely. I'll use my own logs to self monitor performance.
That said, do people really believe that not having a DPS meter will reduce the performance/build pressure that some raid or group leaders will have? That is a behavior that exists in games without DPS meters as well. I agree that it goes to toxic levels in some settings, but there will always be groups/raids that operate with a hyper-competitive mindset and they will find ways to uphold that expectation regardless of there being a DPS meter.
Even you are saying that if a thing is working, you won't change it.
My general playstyle stays consistent across many games, yes. I also deviate from my desired preferred spec if I find a reoccurring weakness. ~ i don't need a combat meter to refer to.
Once that meta is in place, Intrepid will find that people are simply not willing to diverge at all from that meta - because they know it works. This also means that most people will not be willing to diverge from that meta even if the content is suggesting to them that they should.
Again my "meta" that i like to play with is never exactly the same from one game to the next but the core of my style is usually obtainable in some manner. I usually have a few points/talents leftover that I am always am experimenting with.
In order for guilds to be willing to run different class builds on different encounters, and in order for there to be a different meta on different servers, players need to have information to know that what they are doing is actually the best thing for their situation. Without that information, players and guilds will not want to risk the potential of running a build that is actually worse than what everyone else is running - they will simply stick to the meta.
This right here is where i start to have a problem. Why are guilds/guildmembers so unwilling to tweak their point/talents to a situation they are having issues with. All the information that you need is in your raid. who got picked off first who got picked off second etc.. I know when I did something wrong. Your guild members do too. there should be actual collaboration/ maybe some volunteers(like the ones that died first) on how to improve performance either in dps, mitigation, healing or the plain old, get out of the AoE!. rather than just let me consult my combat meter. imo
Naturally, I am not going to say this is the case without having and example of it. That example is Archeage - a game that still has the same meta it had when the Korean version went live over seven years ago. The meta was formed in beta, and is exactly the same today as it was then, and the developers are now in a position where they are unable to alter the builds that people run because people will leave the game if their build is suddenly not viable.
okay I can agree with this statement in the general sense. I didn't play that particular game but i get what you mean. And yes i generally start to shy away from games when expansions come out, especially when my class takes an overhaul(or the restrictions put on spending of talent points). Expansions to me generally gut the original games content that i may have loved.
Now, I want Ashes to have a PvP meta that is cycling and morphing all the time, and is different on all servers. That will only ever happen if players are able to quickly come up with and then assess builds - which can only be done with a combat tracker.
I am all for this except for the part~ only be done w/ a combat tracker.
In all my years gaming, even before i could read, i never and have never used any add-ons or combat trackers why can I learn to play w/o them but others cant.
I looked around prolly a couple years ago looking for f.r.e.s.h. game to play i seen this one only in the infant stages back then. I thought maybe.. here i am (years later?idk) looking at this wonderful game. only to find out.. Wow! a game with no add-ons! or combat tracker.. This is AMAZING! will i finally have a game that puts me on equal footing by rejecting all that I shun. so.. idk what to think But i sure would like to play for that first year w/o any add-ons; after that, if yall handholding guilders want them i got no objection. But come on at least try it. Wouldn't the bragging rights to a real feat be that much better? Ya we took down that legendary boss b4 combat trackers were inrtoduced. but like you say they already got 3rd party trackers in the works so i guess that one is already solved
/shrug do what you want. doubt it will change my life at all.
I am done on this subject
peace~
As a tank I could have the highest dps in the server and never even know. How am I supposed to brag if I don't know what my dps is?
How can I dunk on the brand new poorly geared mage if I don't have empirical evidence that his numbers are low??
The tank overpulled and marked a kill target. But I'm just going to spam a low damage aoe cause it makes my average dps go through the roof. It won't matter if we wipe cause the kill target didn't die fast enough. I had the highest dps, what's your excuse? Scrub.
That other group jumped in on our world boss, but since I'm a care bear who's worried about my leet deeps I'ma not going to PVP em cause it's a dps loss.
IT DOESN'T MATTER!
If you want to know if your are killing something fast, try pushing different buttons until you figure out what buttons kill things the fastest.
This right here is where i start to have a problem.
There are, perhaps, one or two misconceptions here.
A games meta as it relates to combat trackers is more of a general wisdom type thing, rather than what an individual player does.
The meta is in regards to what builds are best for specific roles or content, what items work with which builds, which builds counter which other builds, what the role make-up of a raid should be, this kind of thing.
One key point about a games meta is that many players do feel obliged to follow it, but most players (the bulk of the MMO population) simply can't be bothered coming up with a build of their own and so will just find one that has been posted somewhere - which is invariably a part of the games meta. Obviously, some players won't follow the meta at all.
If there is a combat tracker present, this meta is something that is known rather than guessed, but it also means that when there is a build that becomes popular, it is easier to develop a counter (or many counters) to that build than it is when there are no combat trackers present. This is absolutely key to maintaining a meta in PvP that is not completely static as per Archeage.
Basically, a build becomes popular because it is good, then someone develops a build to counter that build. Then that second build becomes popular, so someone comes up with a counter to that second build. This happens with several builds from each of the primary archetypes in the game, leaving us with builds, counter builds, and counter-counter builds, and it just keeps going on.
This prevents PvP from getting stale - there is nothing worse in a PvP game where you only ever come up against one build of each class (of which Ashes only has 8). It is far more interesting and enjoyable if you come up against a class that has builds that are scissors to your rock, but that same class also has builds that are paper to your rock.
The only example we have of a PvP game with somewhat open class builds and low combat tracker use is Archeage (hence my bringing it up). That game still has the same 4 or 5 builds in it that it had in 2013. If you come across a player in PvP of one of these classes, you will be able to list each of the abilities they have - because things are that stale. More often than not, in a 1v1 situation, most players know the result before anyone has actually attacked.
Now, I am not saying that Ashes will be this stale, obviously. I am sure the meta (as in, the builds that players generally run) will change on occasion. However, the idea isn't for portions of the meta to change every 3 or 4 months (or longer), but for new builds to be popularised every few weeks. If builds are added to the meta every 3 months, then when you come up against a player of a given class, you can be fairly sure what their build will be. If there are changes to the meta every few weeks, then a character you come up against in 1v1 could well be any one of several currently popular builds.
If we want new builds to be added to the meta (which means players have more build options in the meta), these builds need to be able to be assessed fairly quickly. This is something that is only really able to be done with a combat tracker.
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In regards to PvE, since rewards are based on how well you kill an encounter (as opposed to simply killing the encounter or not killing the encounter), guilds will not be willing to risk allowing players to switch to a build that is unknown to them, as that switch may well result in significantly fewer rewards. Guilds will allow a select number of players to have a single ability switch to deal with a specific mechanic - but there will absolutely not be any wholesale build changes that depart from the established meta - unless the build can be assessed before hand.
Now, I say "guilds won't allow", but really I mean players in top end guilds wouldn't want to risk it. It isn't the guild telling players not to make the change, but the players not wanting to make the change and sick ruining things for their friends. When there is a real risk of lowering the rewards the raid will recieve, people will either stick to the common wisdom, or they will be sure to objectively assess a potential new build before using it (which is why combat trackers simply will exist for this game).
It is perhaps also worth pointing out here that knowing who the first and second to die (or even the entire order in which the raid died) is not useful information in and of itself.
In most games (everythign other than WoW, as far as I can tell), players do not know what an encounter is going to do until they have figured it out for themselves. If you are in the process of doing this, knowing who died first means nothing, as you have no idea if they died due to doing/not doing something, died due to the raid not doing a thing that needs to be done or died due to an AoE. Basically, at this point in working out the encounter, the raid doesn't actually know if it is doing what it needs to do to kill the encounter.
When you know the viable strategy for the encounter (which in WoW happens before the encounter hits live servers - and so this entire aspect of raiding is simply not present in that game), the order in which people die can be useful information. You know what needs to be done to kill the encounter, and all you are working on is the execution of that strategy, the order in which people die *may* actually mean something of value. Thing is, in raid encounters in Ashes you are not actually going to know if you have the right strategy, so you can't make any inferrances as to why people died, making that information essentially useless without more context.
That additional context is what a combat tracker provides.
How can I dunk on the brand new poorly geared mage if I don't have empirical evidence that his numbers are low??
If that mages numbers are lower than their gear would suggest they should be, why would you "dunk on" them rather than offer them some assistance?
Just because you and/or your guild misuse information from combat trackers, that is no reason to keep that information from the people that will use it well.
All you are doing is adding to the argument that a combat tracker should be implemented in to the client in a way where people like you and the people you know can't use it on people outside of your guild, and members of your guild have the option to just go to a better guild if they wish.
This is not an argument against having combat trackers at all.
I have never had to lower myself to use DPS meters. I'm that good.
The only way I believe this is if your earlier post stating you are a "hardcore raider" isn't true.
To be honest, I can believe that this here is true, but I don't for a second believe you are a "hardcore raider" - in part because no raider that I have ever known has called themselves "hardcore" without being blatantly ironic.
Your understanding of the topic makes me think you have participated in pick up raids, and maybe a small amount of low end guild based raiding, but you are not a top end raider.
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Even if you have never run one yourself, combat trackers were used in coming up with the build that you run - even if you do not use the combat tracker.
Combat trackers were used to identify and report bugs in your build - even if you do not use the combat tracker.
The thing with combat trackers is that in any game that allows open discussion around them, every player benefits from them.
there are a few reasons why i think dps AND HEALING meters are a very healthy thing for an rpg to have.
- First of which, it just seems like a normal addition to floating combat text, you see the big hits on screen and see the total down below
- Second, it helps to enrich the experience of power progression, and lets you witness the evolution of your capabilities
- Third, it helps you make the correct decisions for optimizing your playstyle when comparing gear sets and builds
- Forth, it will exsist in one form or another weather in game or via a third party overlays, like in Final Fantasy and LotRO
- Fifth, It creates competitive aspects futher enriching player experience on a social and gameplay level
The most common problem with dps meters are that they are also used to rate players on there skills. which often leads to those doing less than average being ridiculed and removed from the group.
There is a simple solution to this that both removes the problem and leaves all the above mentioned benefits in-tact
You have a personal dps meter that can be toggled on or off, and a group dps meter that can be enabled if all members of the group consent to in some way, i think a pop up on screen when joining a group would be tacky an unnecessary, but a toggle in the setting that if everyone in group has on then it shows up could work nicely. then people who want it can have it and the others can not have it and not have to feel any of the negative effects that would come from it.
Also i think a certain level of proof of game mechanics is important, especially in the combat of an MMO RPG. So much of how the world operates is shrouded in mystery its nice to have this tool to shed some light on such an important system like player power progression. that the main reason i would really love to see DPS/HPS functionality in Ashes of Creation
I would be fine with a personal DPS meter that only shows mine. I would just like an easy way to gauge my effectiveness or even a DPS meter that only shows up near training dummies.
Also, people will find a way to add there own. one way or another its gonna happen.
Also, people will find a way to add there own. one way or another its gonna happen.
This is absolutely true, without any sort of doubt.
The thing is, if there is a built in tracker that has the basic functionality needed, the people that would make a third party one will quite possibly decide it is not worth the effort. If so, this would leave that first party tracker as the only one that is available for Ashes, meaning Intrepid have control over it.
This would surely be to far more peoples benefit than detriment.
The thing with this is; there is no way Steven doesn't know this to be true. This means that it is entierly possible (perhaps even probable) that the idea is to put on a facade of being against trackers, knowing full well that players like myself will have one anyway.
If true, it is basically throwing casual players under the bus while attempting to keep their own hands clean, and making players like myself - someone that will use a combat tracker to it's fullest effect - seeming to be the bad guy.
The facts actually match up better with this as the scenario we are in than anything else I can think of, and if it is the case, it completely alters my perception of both Steven and Intrepid - and not for the better.
PVE: Player versus Environment is the lifeblood of every successful MMO I have ever played. It is the long-term buy-in players will keep coming back for. I have healed for countless MMO's been a guild leader, healing officer countless times and have been at the .01% of communities in terms of difficulty, clear speeds, mythic raids etc. I am not an elitist... though I can tell you I have raided with plenty of them, and yes I too am turned off by them. Rather I try to teach and train my raid members by looking over their performance. DPS meters on these forums seem to have sent many into a tizzy. The purpose of my post is to rebut the cascade of negativity towards DPS meters.
Playing games without meters was difficult and I eventually walked away from the experience. In Final Fantasy... I followed the rules and did not download one... though some did, they just couldn't really talk about or face a ban. I tried out classes and had no concept or idea of if I was growing, doing better, becoming more efficient or if the gear was actually improving my output. I want to give my best, support my group and in this instance... I was without direction. I was in the swirl of chaos many are seeking and though I was never scolded for my poor performance, I could not shake the feeling that I could be doing better and without self reflection and assessment, I chose to leave the game.
Having a DPS meter does squash the "chaos" so many desire, however, when has chaos ever been efficient and effective? We don't want chaos in our lives. We seek refuge from it. I don't order an item from a restaurant and just accept a bill for $100. I am going to review my bill to see how it is broken down and if there are mistakes on it, especially if it seems much higher that it is supposed to be. Having no meters would be like handing over your card and paying whatever you are charged. You have no idea and accept whatever is dealt to you. I value my money and would not accept a bill without a number.
One more example: This would be like driving your car around without ever looking under the hood. A raid team has many moving parts, some will serve as the alternator and keep the battery charge (support classes), others will be the cylinders and pump that gas (dps pumping), others the radiator cooling off the dungeon (healing). We are looking at 64 classes. I need to know what is going under the hood of my car to access any problems going on. Those asking for chaos or no dps meters are asking for the car to without ever getting service or intelligently hooking it up to a computer to diagnose the problems we have with our group.
Anyone who has ever raided with me from SWTOR, WoW, FF14, AION, Heroes Unlimited/Villains Unlimited, ARK, Star Wars Galaxies <-favorite MMO of all time, or even my 2011-21013 Minecraft server that had command block classes, quests, instances, raids, npc's and shops, knows that people are more important then the raid. However, I need to know how to help my raid team and sit with them to see, ok, why are you as a samurai having really low DPS: Oh... you are using a sword and a dagger... hmm... well we have a problem here or: You as a Pries run out of mana in the first 20 seconds of the fight, why is that? Oh you are using max ranked skills, lets try to change that.
If you take away meters and logs from healing officers, you take my ability to support and aide my raid team. NOW, as the game has stated they want to run their addons... I would love to see specific logs for up-times for support classes, dps generated from their buffs so we have a measure of their effectiveness. I want dps meters not to look down on people, but to build a raid team that is effective, accomplished and educated.
If you are against DPS meters, you are against informed and educated raid leaders who can help and aide their team. It takes allot of time to go through logs, access performance and then work with my raiders. If this game wants to have PVE, then it needs DPS meters as a tool for those quality raid leads and officers of guilds to build up a community of people who want to have fun while striving for success.
There is a DPS meter mega thread where the mods want you to put all posts regarding DPS meters. Why start another topic?
Also, All i am going to say is that you don't need DPS meters to have good PvE content. People who think that's true should start playing the game instead of looking at spreadsheets. I've been playing FFXIV since the ARR beta myself (so i use that as an example here since you talked about it yourself) and been doing the "hardcore" raiding as well with static groups without meters. And that works just fine if you look whats happening around you.
Yes, DPS meters make it easier, but they are not required.
There is a DPS meter mega thread where the mods want you to put all posts regarding DPS meters. Why start another topic?
Also, All i am going to say is that you don't need DPS meters to have good PvE content. People who think that's true should start playing the game instead of looking at spreadsheets. I've been playing FFXIV since the ARR beta myself (so i use that as an example here since you talked about it yourself) and been doing the "hardcore" raiding as well with static groups without meters. And that works just fine if you look whats happening around you.
Yes, DPS meters make it easier, but they are not required.
Hey Dawn,
I noticed he was in some top level guilds and raided at some high levels. Spreadsheets have some really useful information. great thing about them is that you do not have to. there are a ton of guilds and players who do not parse, log or have dps meters. There should be a place for everyone in AoC. I hope there are meters and i hope there is a place for competitive game play where people actually care about their performance on a team. also a lot of FFXIV secretly use meters and cant say anything.
Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.
@dawntracker Thanks for the prompt reply. We do look at allot more than spreadsheets. There is much more involved, but that point is moot. I love your FF14 example because the dirty little secret with Final Fantasy is that people are secretly using DPS meters... they just can't talk about it. So someone in your group, if they are hardcore probably have a good idea of what is going on.
I agree, do you need to have a dps meter to have fun? No. Absolutely not, but taking that option away limits the entry for people who want to raid hardcore. Having a scale and seeing what did Guisepe cast? and then seeing he used abilities more often then you did gives you a gauge as to how to raise your performance. My belief is that if you don't want to use it, then don't, however don't take away that possibility from those who would like to use it as a tool, because that is what it is: a tool for raiders, their officers and the guild leader to continue working on the team.
Thanks again for your thoughtful post. I love this format where we can trade ideas and share things.
I noticed he was in some top level guilds and raided at some high levels. Spreadsheets have some really useful information. great thing about them is that you do not have to. there are a ton of guilds and players who do not parse, log or have dps meters. There should be a place for everyone in AoC. I hope there are meters and i hope there is a place for competitive game play where people actually care about their performance on a team. also a lot of FFXIV secretly use meters and cant say anything.
Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.
All well and good, but i was referring to him saying: "If this game wants to have PvE, then it needs DPS meters as a tool for those quality raid leads and officers of guilds to build up a community of people who want to have fun while striving for success."
And that's why i said it's not required but it makes it easier to understand where you or your teammates are going wrong when it comes damage/healing output.
@dawntracker Thanks for the prompt reply. We do look at allot more than spreadsheets. There is much more involved, but that point is moot. I love your FF14 example because the dirty little secret with Final Fantasy is that people are secretly using DPS meters... they just can't talk about it. So someone in your group, if they are hardcore probably have a good idea of what is going on.
I agree, do you need to have a dps meter to have fun? No. Absolutely not, but taking that option away limits the entry for people who want to raid hardcore. Having a scale and seeing what did Guisepe cast? and then seeing he used abilities more often then you did gives you a gauge as to how to raise your performance. My belief is that if you don't want to use it, then don't, however don't take away that possibility from those who would like to use it as a tool, because that is what it is: a tool for raiders, their officers and the guild leader to continue working on the team.
Thanks again for your thoughtful post. I love this format where we can trade ideas and share things.
To clarify, when i said me and my team raided Hardcore content in FFXIV, i really did mean we did it without the help of meters. I know about the rules, I know a lot of people don't care for those rules, but I am 100% sure that our group didn't because that's the fun for us in multiple MMO's. We like the trial and error.
Further more, I wish you both good luck on getting a DPS meter in game. Since there will be a combat log i am sure there will be a third party app anyway to provide that information for you. I don't really care either way since I plan to join a guild or people who won't use meters anyway because that's the way i like to play the game. So if you guys can convince Steven, more power to you. But i personally won't hold my breath on that.
Hello everyone:
What I would like to mention, as some of you so eloquently eluded to, is that DPS meters are more that just DPS meters: there are healing meters, dispels/decurses, friendly fire and a slew of other information that help to figure out what is going on. I would like AoC to not only nave some of the standard meters, but also damage received from buffs to measure support classes like a bard's effectiveness.
Not only are there the meters, but seeing who healed which tank to see if assignments were followed, which spells were used to heal them and damage received to see if people keep from getting hit from avoidable mechanics. These all tell a story of what is going on and if you have someone who can read the meters correctly rather then just seeing the DPS overall or per fight, then you start to see the narrative of what is going on with your group.
I heal with a pretty amazing priest in my guild. We are number one on our server, but the guy will not dispel or cure a disease as that interferes with his healing number. This is an example of a poor player who is not using a meter effectively. He cares about that one number rather then his contribution to the raid. Now that we know this, we can correct it as we have the data from the meters.
Meters are a tool for raiders, guild leaders and players to use to improve and spot those baddies who misuse them. I think the meters would be a great addition to help the PVE community.
How can I dunk on the brand new poorly geared mage if I don't have empirical evidence that his numbers are low??
If that mages numbers are lower than their gear would suggest they should be, why would you "dunk on" them rather than offer them some assistance?
Just because you and/or your guild misuse information from combat trackers, that is no reason to keep that information from the people that will use it well.
All you are doing is adding to the argument that a combat tracker should be implemented in to the client in a way where people like you and the people you know can't use it on people outside of your guild, and members of your guild have the option to just go to a better guild if they wish.
This is not an argument against having combat trackers at all.
Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.
The problem with having optional things like this is nobody competitive is going to take the immersion route if they have the choice to.
And for the people who prefer the immersion, the fact that there are people who are doing better than you or even destroying you with the help of the non-immersive option is damaging to your immersion. The argument that "Well just make it an option, it doesn't hurt the people that want to play without it" is just false, because it indirectly does so.
I do hope it will be the type of game where the length of you boss-DPS-meter is much less of an important thing compared to you ability for win the PVP for that boss. For in my experience player-interaction is far better re-played compared to scripted events.
Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.
The problem with having optional things like this is nobody competitive is going to take the immersion route if they have the choice to.
And for the people who prefer the immersion, the fact that there are people who are doing better than you or even destroying you with the help of the non-immersive option is damaging to your immersion. The argument that "Well just make it an option, it doesn't hurt the people that want to play without it" is just false, because it indirectly does so.
i disagree. There are RP servers in WoW that RP and do not care 1 bit if they will be unoptimal being a all tauren guild. They also do not use alot of addons. The communities you lead or want to have can be whatever you want them to be. Being pressured to use something you dont want to is silly. do what you want to do. enjoy the game how you want to. A lot of people will not down the hardest content in alot of games but that was not their goal in playing that game. Some RP, Some PVP, some casually play, some competitively play. there should be room for everyone.
I do hope it will be the type of game where the length of you boss-DPS-meter is much less of an important thing compared to you ability for win the PVP for that boss. For in my experience player-interaction is far better re-played compared to scripted events.
well for the castle they mentioned whoever did the most dmg to the boss would win the castle. so its kinda weird atm.
And your carebear mentality is missing a crucial point again, you dont need a dps meter in a castle siege simply because there wont be a dps race on the boss, you will either get smacked down by a competing guild and wont be able to dps, or you will run over the other guilds and the dps wont be a factor anyway, since you will be the only one dpsing it.
How do you need a dps meter in that?
Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.
The problem with having optional things like this is nobody competitive is going to take the immersion route if they have the choice to.
And for the people who prefer the immersion, the fact that there are people who are doing better than you or even destroying you with the help of the non-immersive option is damaging to your immersion. The argument that "Well just make it an option, it doesn't hurt the people that want to play without it" is just false, because it indirectly does so.
i disagree. There are RP servers in WoW that RP and do not care 1 bit if they will be unoptimal being a all tauren guild. They also do not use alot of addons. The communities you lead or want to have can be whatever you want them to be. Being pressured to use something you dont want to is silly. do what you want to do. enjoy the game how you want to. A lot of people will not down the hardest content in alot of games but that was not their goal in playing that game. Some RP, Some PVP, some casually play, some competitively play. there should be room for everyone.
First I will say that sure there can be dedicated and sectioned off portions of the community for people who prefer that immersion. The problem with that is you're conflating immersion with RP. They are not the same thing, you can want and have immersion without being a roleplayer. People on this forum that are arguing for good feeling combat are arguing for immersive combat.
That aside, regarding the rest of your argument, personally I feel that is a very condescending/patronizing way to view the issue. To dismiss the argument as "It's just them falling to peer pressure" is dismissing the feelings and realities of those players.
Your argument amounts to "Just don't be peer pressured, it's that easy", but you're failing to recognise, or outright disregarding that the overarching community has a certain influence on the individual. It's all just a bit disingenuous.
And your carebear mentality is missing a crucial point again, you dont need a dps meter in a castle siege simply because there wont be a dps race on the boss, you will either get smacked down by a competing guild and wont be able to dps, or you will run over the other guilds and the dps wont be a factor anyway, since you will be the only one dpsing it.
How do you need a dps meter in that?
how do you know if you actually win or lose. How do you know anything? how you're character scales, how to build your character how you want it to be if you are not even sure how much dmg youre spells are actually doing? a meter is a amazing tool for showing you what is actually happening. bro you're a horrible player lol
Comments
Players who don’t want to follow the strongest builds don’t have to. They’re are perfectly free to play how they want, they’re simply not entitled to succeed everywhere they want. This will be true with combat trackers or without.
However, if you are indeed someone that raids in a guild, then you would know perfectly well that this
Simply does not happen there.
It does happen sometimes in pick up raids where people do not know each other - but as soon as you are in a situation where people know you and know your ability, occasional mistakes are ignored - even occasional mistakes that wipe raids.
I am all for debate and discussion, but I am not going to entertain such with people that are not honest in that debate and discussion - and one of these two statements from you is not true.
It is not ok to fabricate an argument out of nothing, nor is it ok to claim that you are experienced on a topic that you are not experienced in, and again, you are doing one of these two.
As to your argument, a few points.
First of all, I do not want Steven to listen to me. I want Steven to listen to the staff he has built up around him - the people that I saw working at Intrepid that made me think this game is actually a serious possibility of being a success.
I didn't come to this game because some random property investor that has played a few MMO's is making it - I came because this game has a team built up of people whose work I have enjoyed for many years. I am here for Jeff and Akil more so than Steven, and I would like Steven to listen to the expertise he has hired.
Second, if you are needing to download something specific to an encounter, you are not using a combat tracker. That, my new friend, is a combat assistant. No one is asking for a combat assistant - and if it were to exist in Ashes I would happily move on to the next game, even if that next game is not even an MMO.
A combat tracker simply tells you what has happened in an encounter - it has no need for anything at all to be encounter specific.
Next, I am asking for a combat tracker built in to the game that is available as a guild perk, in a way where guilds that are not attempting top end PvE content as their primary content type will have something more useful to pick - and also implemented in to the game so that it only tracks combat of people in that guild. This is not my preference in terms of combat trackers - I am perfectly fine using either of the third party ones that I am following the development of.
However, a built in combat tracker that has some restrictions to it (restrictions that can only exist if the tracker is built in to the client) is by far the best option for the game.
Lastly, if you were indeed performing CC, a combat tracker (a good one) will tell me that. It will tell me what mobs you CC'd, what type of CC you used, how long they were CC'd and who - if anyone - broke that CC.
Someone looking at a combat tracker and only seeing DPS is someone that shouldn't have a combat tracker. This is why combat trackers should only be made available to those that actually understand them.
In order for you to think this way, you need to either not have thought this through, or you need to think that the game won't have a meta without a combat tracker.
I hate to break it to you, but the game will have a meta regardless of if combat trackers exist or not.
The only way to not feel like you need to use a build that is a part of the games meta is if you are a player that doesn't feel the need to follow the games meta. If you are such a player, you will not care how that meta was formed (with objective data or without objective data), you will simply do what you want to do.
On the other hand, if you are the kind of player that feels the need to follow the meta, you will also do that regardless of how the meta is formed.
So, basically, this is all up to you, not up to a combat tracker.
You and I seem to be talking fruit salad here, not just apples and oranges.
You will already have a combat log, per Steven. All your stats and numbers will be there, you just have to access them. Devs encludes these for their algorithms. You have access, on your client.
I like your idea, as a guild perk for guilds. /Shrug
I have never had to lower myself to use DPS meters. I'm that good. But, my guildies have, and what insues is not pretty. I really feal for pugs, I troll the forums. Nothing positive results from DPS meters. Except epeen sizing.
Edit. Struck out the snide comment.
That said, do people really believe that not having a DPS meter will reduce the performance/build pressure that some raid or group leaders will have? That is a behavior that exists in games without DPS meters as well. I agree that it goes to toxic levels in some settings, but there will always be groups/raids that operate with a hyper-competitive mindset and they will find ways to uphold that expectation regardless of there being a DPS meter.
My general playstyle stays consistent across many games, yes. I also deviate from my desired preferred spec if I find a reoccurring weakness. ~ i don't need a combat meter to refer to.
Again my "meta" that i like to play with is never exactly the same from one game to the next but the core of my style is usually obtainable in some manner. I usually have a few points/talents leftover that I am always am experimenting with.
This right here is where i start to have a problem. Why are guilds/guildmembers so unwilling to tweak their point/talents to a situation they are having issues with. All the information that you need is in your raid. who got picked off first who got picked off second etc.. I know when I did something wrong. Your guild members do too. there should be actual collaboration/ maybe some volunteers(like the ones that died first) on how to improve performance either in dps, mitigation, healing or the plain old, get out of the AoE!. rather than just let me consult my combat meter. imo
okay I can agree with this statement in the general sense. I didn't play that particular game but i get what you mean. And yes i generally start to shy away from games when expansions come out, especially when my class takes an overhaul(or the restrictions put on spending of talent points). Expansions to me generally gut the original games content that i may have loved.
I am all for this except for the part~ only be done w/ a combat tracker.
In all my years gaming, even before i could read, i never and have never used any add-ons or combat trackers why can I learn to play w/o them but others cant.
I looked around prolly a couple years ago looking for f.r.e.s.h. game to play i seen this one only in the infant stages back then. I thought maybe.. here i am (years later?idk) looking at this wonderful game. only to find out.. Wow! a game with no add-ons! or combat tracker.. This is AMAZING! will i finally have a game that puts me on equal footing by rejecting all that I shun. so.. idk what to think But i sure would like to play for that first year w/o any add-ons; after that, if yall handholding guilders want them i got no objection. But come on at least try it. Wouldn't the bragging rights to a real feat be that much better? Ya we took down that legendary boss b4 combat trackers were inrtoduced. but like you say they already got 3rd party trackers in the works so i guess that one is already solved
/shrug do what you want. doubt it will change my life at all.
I am done on this subject
peace~
How can I dunk on the brand new poorly geared mage if I don't have empirical evidence that his numbers are low??
The tank overpulled and marked a kill target. But I'm just going to spam a low damage aoe cause it makes my average dps go through the roof. It won't matter if we wipe cause the kill target didn't die fast enough. I had the highest dps, what's your excuse? Scrub.
That other group jumped in on our world boss, but since I'm a care bear who's worried about my leet deeps I'ma not going to PVP em cause it's a dps loss.
IT DOESN'T MATTER!
If you want to know if your are killing something fast, try pushing different buttons until you figure out what buttons kill things the fastest.
I do admire you persistence~that is noble
A games meta as it relates to combat trackers is more of a general wisdom type thing, rather than what an individual player does.
The meta is in regards to what builds are best for specific roles or content, what items work with which builds, which builds counter which other builds, what the role make-up of a raid should be, this kind of thing.
One key point about a games meta is that many players do feel obliged to follow it, but most players (the bulk of the MMO population) simply can't be bothered coming up with a build of their own and so will just find one that has been posted somewhere - which is invariably a part of the games meta. Obviously, some players won't follow the meta at all.
If there is a combat tracker present, this meta is something that is known rather than guessed, but it also means that when there is a build that becomes popular, it is easier to develop a counter (or many counters) to that build than it is when there are no combat trackers present. This is absolutely key to maintaining a meta in PvP that is not completely static as per Archeage.
Basically, a build becomes popular because it is good, then someone develops a build to counter that build. Then that second build becomes popular, so someone comes up with a counter to that second build. This happens with several builds from each of the primary archetypes in the game, leaving us with builds, counter builds, and counter-counter builds, and it just keeps going on.
This prevents PvP from getting stale - there is nothing worse in a PvP game where you only ever come up against one build of each class (of which Ashes only has 8). It is far more interesting and enjoyable if you come up against a class that has builds that are scissors to your rock, but that same class also has builds that are paper to your rock.
The only example we have of a PvP game with somewhat open class builds and low combat tracker use is Archeage (hence my bringing it up). That game still has the same 4 or 5 builds in it that it had in 2013. If you come across a player in PvP of one of these classes, you will be able to list each of the abilities they have - because things are that stale. More often than not, in a 1v1 situation, most players know the result before anyone has actually attacked.
Now, I am not saying that Ashes will be this stale, obviously. I am sure the meta (as in, the builds that players generally run) will change on occasion. However, the idea isn't for portions of the meta to change every 3 or 4 months (or longer), but for new builds to be popularised every few weeks. If builds are added to the meta every 3 months, then when you come up against a player of a given class, you can be fairly sure what their build will be. If there are changes to the meta every few weeks, then a character you come up against in 1v1 could well be any one of several currently popular builds.
If we want new builds to be added to the meta (which means players have more build options in the meta), these builds need to be able to be assessed fairly quickly. This is something that is only really able to be done with a combat tracker.
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In regards to PvE, since rewards are based on how well you kill an encounter (as opposed to simply killing the encounter or not killing the encounter), guilds will not be willing to risk allowing players to switch to a build that is unknown to them, as that switch may well result in significantly fewer rewards. Guilds will allow a select number of players to have a single ability switch to deal with a specific mechanic - but there will absolutely not be any wholesale build changes that depart from the established meta - unless the build can be assessed before hand.
Now, I say "guilds won't allow", but really I mean players in top end guilds wouldn't want to risk it. It isn't the guild telling players not to make the change, but the players not wanting to make the change and sick ruining things for their friends. When there is a real risk of lowering the rewards the raid will recieve, people will either stick to the common wisdom, or they will be sure to objectively assess a potential new build before using it (which is why combat trackers simply will exist for this game).
It is perhaps also worth pointing out here that knowing who the first and second to die (or even the entire order in which the raid died) is not useful information in and of itself.
In most games (everythign other than WoW, as far as I can tell), players do not know what an encounter is going to do until they have figured it out for themselves. If you are in the process of doing this, knowing who died first means nothing, as you have no idea if they died due to doing/not doing something, died due to the raid not doing a thing that needs to be done or died due to an AoE. Basically, at this point in working out the encounter, the raid doesn't actually know if it is doing what it needs to do to kill the encounter.
When you know the viable strategy for the encounter (which in WoW happens before the encounter hits live servers - and so this entire aspect of raiding is simply not present in that game), the order in which people die can be useful information. You know what needs to be done to kill the encounter, and all you are working on is the execution of that strategy, the order in which people die *may* actually mean something of value. Thing is, in raid encounters in Ashes you are not actually going to know if you have the right strategy, so you can't make any inferrances as to why people died, making that information essentially useless without more context.
That additional context is what a combat tracker provides.
Just because you and/or your guild misuse information from combat trackers, that is no reason to keep that information from the people that will use it well.
All you are doing is adding to the argument that a combat tracker should be implemented in to the client in a way where people like you and the people you know can't use it on people outside of your guild, and members of your guild have the option to just go to a better guild if they wish.
This is not an argument against having combat trackers at all.
To be honest, I can believe that this here is true, but I don't for a second believe you are a "hardcore raider" - in part because no raider that I have ever known has called themselves "hardcore" without being blatantly ironic.
Your understanding of the topic makes me think you have participated in pick up raids, and maybe a small amount of low end guild based raiding, but you are not a top end raider.
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Even if you have never run one yourself, combat trackers were used in coming up with the build that you run - even if you do not use the combat tracker.
Combat trackers were used to identify and report bugs in your build - even if you do not use the combat tracker.
The thing with combat trackers is that in any game that allows open discussion around them, every player benefits from them.
- First of which, it just seems like a normal addition to floating combat text, you see the big hits on screen and see the total down below
- Second, it helps to enrich the experience of power progression, and lets you witness the evolution of your capabilities
- Third, it helps you make the correct decisions for optimizing your playstyle when comparing gear sets and builds
- Forth, it will exsist in one form or another weather in game or via a third party overlays, like in Final Fantasy and LotRO
- Fifth, It creates competitive aspects futher enriching player experience on a social and gameplay level
The most common problem with dps meters are that they are also used to rate players on there skills. which often leads to those doing less than average being ridiculed and removed from the group.
There is a simple solution to this that both removes the problem and leaves all the above mentioned benefits in-tact
You have a personal dps meter that can be toggled on or off, and a group dps meter that can be enabled if all members of the group consent to in some way, i think a pop up on screen when joining a group would be tacky an unnecessary, but a toggle in the setting that if everyone in group has on then it shows up could work nicely. then people who want it can have it and the others can not have it and not have to feel any of the negative effects that would come from it.
Also i think a certain level of proof of game mechanics is important, especially in the combat of an MMO RPG. So much of how the world operates is shrouded in mystery its nice to have this tool to shed some light on such an important system like player power progression. that the main reason i would really love to see DPS/HPS functionality in Ashes of Creation
Also, people will find a way to add there own. one way or another its gonna happen.
The thing is, if there is a built in tracker that has the basic functionality needed, the people that would make a third party one will quite possibly decide it is not worth the effort. If so, this would leave that first party tracker as the only one that is available for Ashes, meaning Intrepid have control over it.
This would surely be to far more peoples benefit than detriment.
The thing with this is; there is no way Steven doesn't know this to be true. This means that it is entierly possible (perhaps even probable) that the idea is to put on a facade of being against trackers, knowing full well that players like myself will have one anyway.
If true, it is basically throwing casual players under the bus while attempting to keep their own hands clean, and making players like myself - someone that will use a combat tracker to it's fullest effect - seeming to be the bad guy.
The facts actually match up better with this as the scenario we are in than anything else I can think of, and if it is the case, it completely alters my perception of both Steven and Intrepid - and not for the better.
Playing games without meters was difficult and I eventually walked away from the experience. In Final Fantasy... I followed the rules and did not download one... though some did, they just couldn't really talk about or face a ban. I tried out classes and had no concept or idea of if I was growing, doing better, becoming more efficient or if the gear was actually improving my output. I want to give my best, support my group and in this instance... I was without direction. I was in the swirl of chaos many are seeking and though I was never scolded for my poor performance, I could not shake the feeling that I could be doing better and without self reflection and assessment, I chose to leave the game.
Having a DPS meter does squash the "chaos" so many desire, however, when has chaos ever been efficient and effective? We don't want chaos in our lives. We seek refuge from it. I don't order an item from a restaurant and just accept a bill for $100. I am going to review my bill to see how it is broken down and if there are mistakes on it, especially if it seems much higher that it is supposed to be. Having no meters would be like handing over your card and paying whatever you are charged. You have no idea and accept whatever is dealt to you. I value my money and would not accept a bill without a number.
One more example: This would be like driving your car around without ever looking under the hood. A raid team has many moving parts, some will serve as the alternator and keep the battery charge (support classes), others will be the cylinders and pump that gas (dps pumping), others the radiator cooling off the dungeon (healing). We are looking at 64 classes. I need to know what is going under the hood of my car to access any problems going on. Those asking for chaos or no dps meters are asking for the car to without ever getting service or intelligently hooking it up to a computer to diagnose the problems we have with our group.
Anyone who has ever raided with me from SWTOR, WoW, FF14, AION, Heroes Unlimited/Villains Unlimited, ARK, Star Wars Galaxies <-favorite MMO of all time, or even my 2011-21013 Minecraft server that had command block classes, quests, instances, raids, npc's and shops, knows that people are more important then the raid. However, I need to know how to help my raid team and sit with them to see, ok, why are you as a samurai having really low DPS: Oh... you are using a sword and a dagger... hmm... well we have a problem here or: You as a Pries run out of mana in the first 20 seconds of the fight, why is that? Oh you are using max ranked skills, lets try to change that.
If you take away meters and logs from healing officers, you take my ability to support and aide my raid team. NOW, as the game has stated they want to run their addons... I would love to see specific logs for up-times for support classes, dps generated from their buffs so we have a measure of their effectiveness. I want dps meters not to look down on people, but to build a raid team that is effective, accomplished and educated.
If you are against DPS meters, you are against informed and educated raid leaders who can help and aide their team. It takes allot of time to go through logs, access performance and then work with my raiders. If this game wants to have PVE, then it needs DPS meters as a tool for those quality raid leads and officers of guilds to build up a community of people who want to have fun while striving for success.
Yup wall of text crit.
Also, All i am going to say is that you don't need DPS meters to have good PvE content. People who think that's true should start playing the game instead of looking at spreadsheets. I've been playing FFXIV since the ARR beta myself (so i use that as an example here since you talked about it yourself) and been doing the "hardcore" raiding as well with static groups without meters. And that works just fine if you look whats happening around you.
Yes, DPS meters make it easier, but they are not required.
Hey Dawn,
I noticed he was in some top level guilds and raided at some high levels. Spreadsheets have some really useful information. great thing about them is that you do not have to. there are a ton of guilds and players who do not parse, log or have dps meters. There should be a place for everyone in AoC. I hope there are meters and i hope there is a place for competitive game play where people actually care about their performance on a team. also a lot of FFXIV secretly use meters and cant say anything.
Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.
I agree, do you need to have a dps meter to have fun? No. Absolutely not, but taking that option away limits the entry for people who want to raid hardcore. Having a scale and seeing what did Guisepe cast? and then seeing he used abilities more often then you did gives you a gauge as to how to raise your performance. My belief is that if you don't want to use it, then don't, however don't take away that possibility from those who would like to use it as a tool, because that is what it is: a tool for raiders, their officers and the guild leader to continue working on the team.
Thanks again for your thoughtful post. I love this format where we can trade ideas and share things.
All well and good, but i was referring to him saying: "If this game wants to have PvE, then it needs DPS meters as a tool for those quality raid leads and officers of guilds to build up a community of people who want to have fun while striving for success."
And that's why i said it's not required but it makes it easier to understand where you or your teammates are going wrong when it comes damage/healing output.
To clarify, when i said me and my team raided Hardcore content in FFXIV, i really did mean we did it without the help of meters. I know about the rules, I know a lot of people don't care for those rules, but I am 100% sure that our group didn't because that's the fun for us in multiple MMO's. We like the trial and error.
Further more, I wish you both good luck on getting a DPS meter in game. Since there will be a combat log i am sure there will be a third party app anyway to provide that information for you. I don't really care either way since I plan to join a guild or people who won't use meters anyway because that's the way i like to play the game. So if you guys can convince Steven, more power to you. But i personally won't hold my breath on that.
What I would like to mention, as some of you so eloquently eluded to, is that DPS meters are more that just DPS meters: there are healing meters, dispels/decurses, friendly fire and a slew of other information that help to figure out what is going on. I would like AoC to not only nave some of the standard meters, but also damage received from buffs to measure support classes like a bard's effectiveness.
Not only are there the meters, but seeing who healed which tank to see if assignments were followed, which spells were used to heal them and damage received to see if people keep from getting hit from avoidable mechanics. These all tell a story of what is going on and if you have someone who can read the meters correctly rather then just seeing the DPS overall or per fight, then you start to see the narrative of what is going on with your group.
I heal with a pretty amazing priest in my guild. We are number one on our server, but the guy will not dispel or cure a disease as that interferes with his healing number. This is an example of a poor player who is not using a meter effectively. He cares about that one number rather then his contribution to the raid. Now that we know this, we can correct it as we have the data from the meters.
Meters are a tool for raiders, guild leaders and players to use to improve and spot those baddies who misuse them. I think the meters would be a great addition to help the PVE community.
Dude you just rolled a 1 on a sarcasim check.
A meter won't fix that.
The problem with having optional things like this is nobody competitive is going to take the immersion route if they have the choice to.
And for the people who prefer the immersion, the fact that there are people who are doing better than you or even destroying you with the help of the non-immersive option is damaging to your immersion. The argument that "Well just make it an option, it doesn't hurt the people that want to play without it" is just false, because it indirectly does so.
i disagree. There are RP servers in WoW that RP and do not care 1 bit if they will be unoptimal being a all tauren guild. They also do not use alot of addons. The communities you lead or want to have can be whatever you want them to be. Being pressured to use something you dont want to is silly. do what you want to do. enjoy the game how you want to. A lot of people will not down the hardest content in alot of games but that was not their goal in playing that game. Some RP, Some PVP, some casually play, some competitively play. there should be room for everyone.
well for the castle they mentioned whoever did the most dmg to the boss would win the castle. so its kinda weird atm.
How do you need a dps meter in that?
First I will say that sure there can be dedicated and sectioned off portions of the community for people who prefer that immersion. The problem with that is you're conflating immersion with RP. They are not the same thing, you can want and have immersion without being a roleplayer. People on this forum that are arguing for good feeling combat are arguing for immersive combat.
That aside, regarding the rest of your argument, personally I feel that is a very condescending/patronizing way to view the issue. To dismiss the argument as "It's just them falling to peer pressure" is dismissing the feelings and realities of those players.
Your argument amounts to "Just don't be peer pressured, it's that easy", but you're failing to recognise, or outright disregarding that the overarching community has a certain influence on the individual. It's all just a bit disingenuous.
how do you know if you actually win or lose. How do you know anything? how you're character scales, how to build your character how you want it to be if you are not even sure how much dmg youre spells are actually doing? a meter is a amazing tool for showing you what is actually happening. bro you're a horrible player lol