DPS Meter Megathread

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dawntracker

Tarnish wrote: »

Hey Dawn,

I noticed he was in some top level guilds and raided at some high levels. Spreadsheets have some really useful information. great thing about them is that you do not have to. there are a ton of guilds and players who do not parse, log or have dps meters. There should be a place for everyone in AoC. I hope there are meters and i hope there is a place for competitive game play where people actually care about their performance on a team. also a lot of FFXIV secretly use meters and cant say anything.

Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.

All well and good, but i was referring to him saying: "If this game wants to have PvE, then it needs DPS meters as a tool for those quality raid leads and officers of guilds to build up a community of people who want to have fun while striving for success."

And that's why i said it's not required but it makes it easier to understand where you or your teammates are going wrong when it comes damage/healing output.

Ricayu wrote: »

@dawntracker Thanks for the prompt reply. We do look at allot more than spreadsheets. There is much more involved, but that point is moot. I love your FF14 example because the dirty little secret with Final Fantasy is that people are secretly using DPS meters... they just can't talk about it. So someone in your group, if they are hardcore probably have a good idea of what is going on.

I agree, do you need to have a dps meter to have fun? No. Absolutely not, but taking that option away limits the entry for people who want to raid hardcore. Having a scale and seeing what did Guisepe cast? and then seeing he used abilities more often then you did gives you a gauge as to how to raise your performance. My belief is that if you don't want to use it, then don't, however don't take away that possibility from those who would like to use it as a tool, because that is what it is: a tool for raiders, their officers and the guild leader to continue working on the team.

Thanks again for your thoughtful post. I love this format where we can trade ideas and share things.

To clarify, when i said me and my team raided Hardcore content in FFXIV, i really did mean we did it without the help of meters. I know about the rules, I know a lot of people don't care for those rules, but I am 100% sure that our group didn't because that's the fun for us in multiple MMO's. We like the trial and error.

Further more, I wish you both good luck on getting a DPS meter in game. Since there will be a combat log i am sure there will be a third party app anyway to provide that information for you. I don't really care either way since I plan to join a guild or people who won't use meters anyway because that's the way i like to play the game. So if you guys can convince Steven, more power to you. But i personally won't hold my breath on that.

Ricayu

Hello everyone:
What I would like to mention, as some of you so eloquently eluded to, is that DPS meters are more that just DPS meters: there are healing meters, dispels/decurses, friendly fire and a slew of other information that help to figure out what is going on. I would like AoC to not only nave some of the standard meters, but also damage received from buffs to measure support classes like a bard's effectiveness.

Not only are there the meters, but seeing who healed which tank to see if assignments were followed, which spells were used to heal them and damage received to see if people keep from getting hit from avoidable mechanics. These all tell a story of what is going on and if you have someone who can read the meters correctly rather then just seeing the DPS overall or per fight, then you start to see the narrative of what is going on with your group.

I heal with a pretty amazing priest in my guild. We are number one on our server, but the guy will not dispel or cure a disease as that interferes with his healing number. This is an example of a poor player who is not using a meter effectively. He cares about that one number rather then his contribution to the raid. Now that we know this, we can correct it as we have the data from the meters.

Meters are a tool for raiders, guild leaders and players to use to improve and spot those baddies who misuse them. I think the meters would be a great addition to help the PVE community.

Hurf Derfman

Noaani wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

How can I dunk on the brand new poorly geared mage if I don't have empirical evidence that his numbers are low??

If that mages numbers are lower than their gear would suggest they should be, why would you "dunk on" them rather than offer them some assistance?

Just because you and/or your guild misuse information from combat trackers, that is no reason to keep that information from the people that will use it well.

All you are doing is adding to the argument that a combat tracker should be implemented in to the client in a way where people like you and the people you know can't use it on people outside of your guild, and members of your guild have the option to just go to a better guild if they wish.

This is not an argument against having combat trackers at all.

Dude you just rolled a 1 on a sarcasim check.

A meter won't fix that.

Dreoh

Tarnish wrote: »

Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.

The problem with having optional things like this is nobody competitive is going to take the immersion route if they have the choice to.

And for the people who prefer the immersion, the fact that there are people who are doing better than you or even destroying you with the help of the non-immersive option is damaging to your immersion. The argument that "Well just make it an option, it doesn't hurt the people that want to play without it" is just false, because it indirectly does so.

Mister AL

I do hope it will be the type of game where the length of you boss-DPS-meter is much less of an important thing compared to you ability for win the PVP for that boss. For in my experience player-interaction is far better re-played compared to scripted events.

Tarnish

Dreoh wrote: »

Tarnish wrote: »

Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.

The problem with having optional things like this is nobody competitive is going to take the immersion route if they have the choice to.

And for the people who prefer the immersion, the fact that there are people who are doing better than you or even destroying you with the help of the non-immersive option is damaging to your immersion. The argument that "Well just make it an option, it doesn't hurt the people that want to play without it" is just false, because it indirectly does so.

i disagree. There are RP servers in WoW that RP and do not care 1 bit if they will be unoptimal being a all tauren guild. They also do not use alot of addons. The communities you lead or want to have can be whatever you want them to be. Being pressured to use something you dont want to is silly. do what you want to do. enjoy the game how you want to. A lot of people will not down the hardest content in alot of games but that was not their goal in playing that game. Some RP, Some PVP, some casually play, some competitively play. there should be room for everyone.

Tarnish

Mister AL wrote: »

I do hope it will be the type of game where the length of you boss-DPS-meter is much less of an important thing compared to you ability for win the PVP for that boss. For in my experience player-interaction is far better re-played compared to scripted events.

well for the castle they mentioned whoever did the most dmg to the boss would win the castle. so its kinda weird atm.

wArchAngel

And your carebear mentality is missing a crucial point again, you dont need a dps meter in a castle siege simply because there wont be a dps race on the boss, you will either get smacked down by a competing guild and wont be able to dps, or you will run over the other guilds and the dps wont be a factor anyway, since you will be the only one dpsing it.
How do you need a dps meter in that?

Dreoh

Tarnish wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

Tarnish wrote: »

Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.

The problem with having optional things like this is nobody competitive is going to take the immersion route if they have the choice to.

And for the people who prefer the immersion, the fact that there are people who are doing better than you or even destroying you with the help of the non-immersive option is damaging to your immersion. The argument that "Well just make it an option, it doesn't hurt the people that want to play without it" is just false, because it indirectly does so.

i disagree. There are RP servers in WoW that RP and do not care 1 bit if they will be unoptimal being a all tauren guild. They also do not use alot of addons. The communities you lead or want to have can be whatever you want them to be. Being pressured to use something you dont want to is silly. do what you want to do. enjoy the game how you want to. A lot of people will not down the hardest content in alot of games but that was not their goal in playing that game. Some RP, Some PVP, some casually play, some competitively play. there should be room for everyone.

First I will say that sure there can be dedicated and sectioned off portions of the community for people who prefer that immersion. The problem with that is you're conflating immersion with RP. They are not the same thing, you can want and have immersion without being a roleplayer. People on this forum that are arguing for good feeling combat are arguing for immersive combat.

That aside, regarding the rest of your argument, personally I feel that is a very condescending/patronizing way to view the issue. To dismiss the argument as "It's just them falling to peer pressure" is dismissing the feelings and realities of those players.

Your argument amounts to "Just don't be peer pressured, it's that easy", but you're failing to recognise, or outright disregarding that the overarching community has a certain influence on the individual. It's all just a bit disingenuous.

Tarnish

wArchAngel wrote: »

And your carebear mentality is missing a crucial point again, you dont need a dps meter in a castle siege simply because there wont be a dps race on the boss, you will either get smacked down by a competing guild and wont be able to dps, or you will run over the other guilds and the dps wont be a factor anyway, since you will be the only one dpsing it.
How do you need a dps meter in that?

how do you know if you actually win or lose. How do you know anything? how you're character scales, how to build your character how you want it to be if you are not even sure how much dmg youre spells are actually doing? a meter is a amazing tool for showing you what is actually happening. bro you're a horrible player lol

Tarnish

Dreoh wrote: »

Tarnish wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

Tarnish wrote: »

Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.

The problem with having optional things like this is nobody competitive is going to take the immersion route if they have the choice to.

And for the people who prefer the immersion, the fact that there are people who are doing better than you or even destroying you with the help of the non-immersive option is damaging to your immersion. The argument that "Well just make it an option, it doesn't hurt the people that want to play without it" is just false, because it indirectly does so.

i disagree. There are RP servers in WoW that RP and do not care 1 bit if they will be unoptimal being a all tauren guild. They also do not use alot of addons. The communities you lead or want to have can be whatever you want them to be. Being pressured to use something you dont want to is silly. do what you want to do. enjoy the game how you want to. A lot of people will not down the hardest content in alot of games but that was not their goal in playing that game. Some RP, Some PVP, some casually play, some competitively play. there should be room for everyone.

First I will say that sure there can be dedicated and sectioned off portions of the community for people who prefer that immersion. The problem with that is you're conflating immersion with RP. They are not the same thing, you can want and have immersion without being a roleplayer. People on this forum that are arguing for good feeling combat are arguing for immersive combat.

That aside, regarding the rest of your argument, personally I feel that is a very condescending/patronizing way to view the issue. To dismiss the argument as "It's just them falling to peer pressure" is dismissing the feelings and realities of those players.

Your argument amounts to "Just don't be peer pressured, it's that easy", but you're failing to recognise, or outright disregarding that the overarching community has a certain influence on the individual. It's all just a bit disingenuous.

you should be able to be whatever it is you want to be in the game. You shouldnt be forced into any content you do not want to participate in. I have never seen a PVE player feel forced to PVP because of a meter or anything else.

Dreoh

Tarnish wrote: »

how do you know if you actually win or lose. How do you know anything? how you're character scales, how to build your character how you want it to be if you are not even sure how much dmg youre spells are actually doing? a meter is a amazing tool for showing you what is actually happening. bro you're a horrible player lol

Well for one, it's pretty obvious if you win or lose, don't know what your point was there.

Also, you can see your damage numbers, so you can see what skills do what damage and compare them with your other skills.

Monster Hunter has no damage meters, but you can bet your sweet ass they know what weapons do the most damage, even in the older Monster Hunter games where there were no damage popups.

wArchAngel

Tarnish wrote: »

wArchAngel wrote: »

And your carebear mentality is missing a crucial point again, you dont need a dps meter in a castle siege simply because there wont be a dps race on the boss, you will either get smacked down by a competing guild and wont be able to dps, or you will run over the other guilds and the dps wont be a factor anyway, since you will be the only one dpsing it.
How do you need a dps meter in that?

how do you know if you actually win or lose. How do you know anything? how you're character scales, how to build your character how you want it to be if you are not even sure how much dmg youre spells are actually doing? a meter is a amazing tool for showing you what is actually happening. bro you're a horrible player lol

If you need a meter to see that your are doing damage after you've won a pvp, i have bad news for you. If you need a meter to see how much damage the opposition is doing after you've lost a pvp, i have some bad news for you. If you need a meter to know how much damage you are doing, i have some bad news for you, if you need a meter to know how your character scales - even though there are literally numbers everywhere in the character UI from what we have seen, i have bad news for you. I am used to playing games without dps meter, i can count numbers, i can evaluate progress, i can get to conclussions, i dont rely on AI to play the game for me.
Basically to conclude, if you feel handicapped without any outsourced helpers, i have bad news for you.

Dygz

I am Chaotic Good.
I love having chaos - plenty of chaos!

I don't want raid leaders or party leaders using DPS meters to dictate how I must play.
I would rather just observe how characters like to play an devise strategies around that.
Instead of talking about DPS - which is meta- I would much rather talk about which abilities are most effective when someone else has triggered a bleed.
If I am an Ice Mage, I don't want some raid leader or party leader telling me I need to use Fire spells because Fire spells have a higher DPS.

Instead of complaining about how other games have worked in the past, you should probably experience Ashes gameplay, first. We will have to evaluate the actual mechanics Ashes is bringing us.
Whether that is Corruption or lack of DPS meters or lack of traditional health bars.

Tarnish

wArchAngel wrote: »

Tarnish wrote: »

wArchAngel wrote: »

And your carebear mentality is missing a crucial point again, you dont need a dps meter in a castle siege simply because there wont be a dps race on the boss, you will either get smacked down by a competing guild and wont be able to dps, or you will run over the other guilds and the dps wont be a factor anyway, since you will be the only one dpsing it.
How do you need a dps meter in that?

how do you know if you actually win or lose. How do you know anything? how you're character scales, how to build your character how you want it to be if you are not even sure how much dmg youre spells are actually doing? a meter is a amazing tool for showing you what is actually happening. bro you're a horrible player lol

If you need a meter to see that your are doing damage after you've won a pvp, i have bad news for you. If you need a meter to see how much damage the opposition is doing after you've lost a pvp, i have some bad news for you. If you need a meter to know how much damage you are doing, i have some bad news for you, if you need a meter to know how your character scales - even though there are literally numbers everywhere in the character UI from what we have seen, i have bad news for you. I am used to playing games without dps meter, i can count numbers, i can evaluate progress, i can get to conclussions, i dont rely on AI to play the game for me.
Basically to conclude, if you feel handicapped without any outsourced helpers, i have bad news for you.

its a PVE boss lol. How do we know its not a bug with a class doing too much dmg? no you assume and that is why you would be much less effective. which is fine. However i feel like my preferable play style should also be allowed. there is nothing wrong with having both.

Tarnish

Dygz wrote: »

I am Chaotic Good.
I love having chaos - plenty of chaos!

I don't want raid leaders or party leaders using DPS meters to dictate how I must play.
I would rather just observe how characters like to play an devise strategies around that.
Instead of talking about DPS - which is meta- I would much rather talk about which abilities are most effective when someone else has triggered a bleed.
If I am an Ice Mage, I don't want some raid leader or party leader telling me I need to use Fire spells because Fire spells have a higher DPS.

Instead of complaining about how other games have worked in the past, you should probably experience Ashes gameplay, first. We will have to evaluate the actual mechanics Ashes is bringing us.
Whether that is Corruption or lack of DPS meters or lack of traditional health bars.

then just join a guild/party/raid that doesnt use one or start one. i dont understand why we cant have a meter that you can use when you want and not use when it doesnt matter or you feel it doesnt matter or never ever use.

wArchAngel

How can you determine what is a bug with a dps meter? You have no idea what are the mob stats are, maybe he is ressistant to crit attacks and you will think "my crits do less damage, must be a bug", you imply that a dps meter gives you all the needed information, while in reality its mostly a glorified calculator. How can you say that a character is doing too much damage if you dont know whats his baseline? The damage will seem fine on the dps meter, it will just be higher than everyone else.

Its a PVE boss, but that boss is in a pvp area, where guild do want to kill each other to have a chance to down that boss, so that statement makes very little sense.

I am refering only to dps meters here btw, not log analytics with skill rotations and such.

wArchAngel

Again, just to point out, i dont care if the dps meter gets approved or not, i dont mind its existance, i fail to see its purpose in the current iteration of the game, and how Steven sees its future.

Dygz

then just join a guild/party/raid that doesnt use one or start one. i dont understand why we cant have a meter that you can use when you want and not use when it doesnt matter or you feel it doesnt matter or never ever use.

Yeah. That's not how it works.
Just don't attack me when I'm not in the mood for PvP. MMORPGs don't work that way, either.

Noaani

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

Dude you just rolled a 1 on a sarcasim check.

Sarcasm doesn't come through in text, and when your sarcasm is indistinguishable from actual arguments made, I would say it was the application of the sarcasm that failed, not the detection of it.

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