DPS Meter Megathread

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Tarnish

Dreoh wrote: »

Tarnish wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

Tarnish wrote: »

Nobody is hoping everyone is required to use anything but the option should be there for those who want and care to use them. Communities make their own rules. create a guild that does not want to use them and people who do not like them will join.

The problem with having optional things like this is nobody competitive is going to take the immersion route if they have the choice to.

And for the people who prefer the immersion, the fact that there are people who are doing better than you or even destroying you with the help of the non-immersive option is damaging to your immersion. The argument that "Well just make it an option, it doesn't hurt the people that want to play without it" is just false, because it indirectly does so.

i disagree. There are RP servers in WoW that RP and do not care 1 bit if they will be unoptimal being a all tauren guild. They also do not use alot of addons. The communities you lead or want to have can be whatever you want them to be. Being pressured to use something you dont want to is silly. do what you want to do. enjoy the game how you want to. A lot of people will not down the hardest content in alot of games but that was not their goal in playing that game. Some RP, Some PVP, some casually play, some competitively play. there should be room for everyone.

First I will say that sure there can be dedicated and sectioned off portions of the community for people who prefer that immersion. The problem with that is you're conflating immersion with RP. They are not the same thing, you can want and have immersion without being a roleplayer. People on this forum that are arguing for good feeling combat are arguing for immersive combat.

That aside, regarding the rest of your argument, personally I feel that is a very condescending/patronizing way to view the issue. To dismiss the argument as "It's just them falling to peer pressure" is dismissing the feelings and realities of those players.

Your argument amounts to "Just don't be peer pressured, it's that easy", but you're failing to recognise, or outright disregarding that the overarching community has a certain influence on the individual. It's all just a bit disingenuous.

you should be able to be whatever it is you want to be in the game. You shouldnt be forced into any content you do not want to participate in. I have never seen a PVE player feel forced to PVP because of a meter or anything else.

Dreoh

Tarnish wrote: »

how do you know if you actually win or lose. How do you know anything? how you're character scales, how to build your character how you want it to be if you are not even sure how much dmg youre spells are actually doing? a meter is a amazing tool for showing you what is actually happening. bro you're a horrible player lol

Well for one, it's pretty obvious if you win or lose, don't know what your point was there.

Also, you can see your damage numbers, so you can see what skills do what damage and compare them with your other skills.

Monster Hunter has no damage meters, but you can bet your sweet ass they know what weapons do the most damage, even in the older Monster Hunter games where there were no damage popups.

wArchAngel

Tarnish wrote: »

wArchAngel wrote: »

And your carebear mentality is missing a crucial point again, you dont need a dps meter in a castle siege simply because there wont be a dps race on the boss, you will either get smacked down by a competing guild and wont be able to dps, or you will run over the other guilds and the dps wont be a factor anyway, since you will be the only one dpsing it.
How do you need a dps meter in that?

how do you know if you actually win or lose. How do you know anything? how you're character scales, how to build your character how you want it to be if you are not even sure how much dmg youre spells are actually doing? a meter is a amazing tool for showing you what is actually happening. bro you're a horrible player lol

If you need a meter to see that your are doing damage after you've won a pvp, i have bad news for you. If you need a meter to see how much damage the opposition is doing after you've lost a pvp, i have some bad news for you. If you need a meter to know how much damage you are doing, i have some bad news for you, if you need a meter to know how your character scales - even though there are literally numbers everywhere in the character UI from what we have seen, i have bad news for you. I am used to playing games without dps meter, i can count numbers, i can evaluate progress, i can get to conclussions, i dont rely on AI to play the game for me.
Basically to conclude, if you feel handicapped without any outsourced helpers, i have bad news for you.

Dygz

I am Chaotic Good.
I love having chaos - plenty of chaos!

I don't want raid leaders or party leaders using DPS meters to dictate how I must play.
I would rather just observe how characters like to play an devise strategies around that.
Instead of talking about DPS - which is meta- I would much rather talk about which abilities are most effective when someone else has triggered a bleed.
If I am an Ice Mage, I don't want some raid leader or party leader telling me I need to use Fire spells because Fire spells have a higher DPS.

Instead of complaining about how other games have worked in the past, you should probably experience Ashes gameplay, first. We will have to evaluate the actual mechanics Ashes is bringing us.
Whether that is Corruption or lack of DPS meters or lack of traditional health bars.

Tarnish

wArchAngel wrote: »

Tarnish wrote: »

wArchAngel wrote: »

And your carebear mentality is missing a crucial point again, you dont need a dps meter in a castle siege simply because there wont be a dps race on the boss, you will either get smacked down by a competing guild and wont be able to dps, or you will run over the other guilds and the dps wont be a factor anyway, since you will be the only one dpsing it.
How do you need a dps meter in that?

how do you know if you actually win or lose. How do you know anything? how you're character scales, how to build your character how you want it to be if you are not even sure how much dmg youre spells are actually doing? a meter is a amazing tool for showing you what is actually happening. bro you're a horrible player lol

If you need a meter to see that your are doing damage after you've won a pvp, i have bad news for you. If you need a meter to see how much damage the opposition is doing after you've lost a pvp, i have some bad news for you. If you need a meter to know how much damage you are doing, i have some bad news for you, if you need a meter to know how your character scales - even though there are literally numbers everywhere in the character UI from what we have seen, i have bad news for you. I am used to playing games without dps meter, i can count numbers, i can evaluate progress, i can get to conclussions, i dont rely on AI to play the game for me.
Basically to conclude, if you feel handicapped without any outsourced helpers, i have bad news for you.

its a PVE boss lol. How do we know its not a bug with a class doing too much dmg? no you assume and that is why you would be much less effective. which is fine. However i feel like my preferable play style should also be allowed. there is nothing wrong with having both.

Tarnish

Dygz wrote: »

I am Chaotic Good.
I love having chaos - plenty of chaos!

I don't want raid leaders or party leaders using DPS meters to dictate how I must play.
I would rather just observe how characters like to play an devise strategies around that.
Instead of talking about DPS - which is meta- I would much rather talk about which abilities are most effective when someone else has triggered a bleed.
If I am an Ice Mage, I don't want some raid leader or party leader telling me I need to use Fire spells because Fire spells have a higher DPS.

Instead of complaining about how other games have worked in the past, you should probably experience Ashes gameplay, first. We will have to evaluate the actual mechanics Ashes is bringing us.
Whether that is Corruption or lack of DPS meters or lack of traditional health bars.

then just join a guild/party/raid that doesnt use one or start one. i dont understand why we cant have a meter that you can use when you want and not use when it doesnt matter or you feel it doesnt matter or never ever use.

wArchAngel

How can you determine what is a bug with a dps meter? You have no idea what are the mob stats are, maybe he is ressistant to crit attacks and you will think "my crits do less damage, must be a bug", you imply that a dps meter gives you all the needed information, while in reality its mostly a glorified calculator. How can you say that a character is doing too much damage if you dont know whats his baseline? The damage will seem fine on the dps meter, it will just be higher than everyone else.

Its a PVE boss, but that boss is in a pvp area, where guild do want to kill each other to have a chance to down that boss, so that statement makes very little sense.

I am refering only to dps meters here btw, not log analytics with skill rotations and such.

wArchAngel

Again, just to point out, i dont care if the dps meter gets approved or not, i dont mind its existance, i fail to see its purpose in the current iteration of the game, and how Steven sees its future.

Dygz

then just join a guild/party/raid that doesnt use one or start one. i dont understand why we cant have a meter that you can use when you want and not use when it doesnt matter or you feel it doesnt matter or never ever use.

Yeah. That's not how it works.
Just don't attack me when I'm not in the mood for PvP. MMORPGs don't work that way, either.

Noaani

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

Dude you just rolled a 1 on a sarcasim check.

Sarcasm doesn't come through in text, and when your sarcasm is indistinguishable from actual arguments made, I would say it was the application of the sarcasm that failed, not the detection of it.

Hurf Derfman

Noaani wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

Dude you just rolled a 1 on a sarcasim check.

Sarcasm is indistinguishable from actual arguments made, I would say

Glad you agree.

halbarz

Best addon in the world: your guild

Requirements for this addon to work: Communication

Work with each other in and outside the raid, collaborate, communicate, and come up with some fun builds and tactics to get stuff done. Talk with other guilds to discuss how they did things, where they failed, etc.

Been leading raids since 2003/2004, never had to use a meter and yet we did all the content. We keep an eye open for what goes wrong or who does what, we talk and point it out. We are not hard-core aka going for world first, etc.

Dygz

Ricayu wrote: »

I heal with a pretty amazing priest in my guild. We are number one on our server, but the guy will not dispel or cure a disease as that interferes with his healing number. This is an example of a poor player who is not using a meter effectively. He cares about that one number rather then his contribution to the raid. Now that we know this, we can correct it as we have the data from the meters.

An amazing Priest who is a poor player? Those two things are mutually exclusive.
He's not a poor player. He just doesn't play the way you want him to play.
You don't need to DPS meters to determine how other players like to play. You also don't need them to determine if a player is doing what you want them to do. That Priest can tell you he's not going to dispel or cure a disease if that is not his character's role. Just like in NW, my Ice Wizard won't use Repel magic because...that character is an Ice Wizard - regardless of what a DPS meter might say.
DPS meters are not the only way to adjust to how other players prefer to play.

Inixia

wow 63 pages! So posting my thoughts on this might be like a single drop in the rain (and to be fair its not like I'm reading a ton of the previous pages either so I can't complain).

but I like dps parsing, I think it adds something to the game. It gives you goals in raid to strive for which make it fun (even when you wipe you can still feel like you're making progress challenging your (past) self you know? Without an objective benchmark its hard to get out of your own biases and know for sure what's working). It also helps your raid identify boss mechanics that need to be mitigated or healed through, or to test or train specs out of raid. Its been an important tool in most of the more serious raid groups I've been in personally (and maybe to be fair it is a little hard for me to imagine how it would feel without it). It can be even a little frustrating to be having raid issues that are hard to identify bc you don't have information.

I get that with more measurements there can be some gatekeeping in hardcore guilds (elitism certainly doesn't disappear without a parser though, the character tends to shift is all), but I think overall parsing helps add to the experience more than hurts, and good guilds should not overly focus on parses anyways but will recognize its a limited insight (to be used with others) and use it like it should be used - an information tool that can help figure out how to improve as a team.

baconbread

Just want to say my opinion about this and then leave, just so IS know one more persons opinion.
I’m a PvE player mostly but I don’t have as much experience as many in here, so I’m not saying my way is the best, just my opinion from my experience in raids and dungeons.

I like a DPS meter (or what you want to call it) for different reasons, but I can see and understand why people don’t want it, and in the end I don’t really care that much if they put it in or not.

For people that wants the best party/guild and wants to be the best of the best, this is a must, to know what is the best and who is the best.
It’s also a good thing to improve on yourself and to help others.
But it’s also a good way for some to kick people out of groups for not doing that 1% more DPS as that other guy in the guild, even if it doesn’t matter and you’re killing the boss no matter what.

I like it just because I want to know I do my part when I’m in a raid, and I want to know if someone is really lazy and doesn’t pay attention. It was also a good way for me to backup my right to be a standard in the “main” raid group in our guild.
But the big problem and somewhat boring part of this was that I hade to have the right gear, the right specs, the right class and race combination and more. And this was a bit boring, I couldn’t try new stuff and I just felt like I was playing a premade character, the same character as everyone else playing that class.

So personally I like the idea of guilds having the option to have a DPS meter if they put points in to it, that way seriously guild could do it if they really wants it, but then they don’t get that other thing that would make them stronger or bigger. And if you do things with random people they can’t use it because you all are not in the same guild, so a lesser chance of people kicking people (but will of course still happen).

And yes, people will probably still use it from a third party, but it will be risky and less people would do it even is some do it. People that use it would not be able to stream it, put it on YouTube or talk about it.
This could mean that some people choose to not play the game at all, or use it and gets band and then abandon the game. It’s a risk IS needs to think about, because it’s usually the most dedicated players that would use stuff like that. But they should not just put it in because some people wants it if they think it’s a bad thing to have in the game. I trust them and I support them no matter what they decide about this.

A meta will always happen, but without this, it will probably be less people that sticks to it. I don’t know, it’s just what I think.
And people are saying stuff about the logs in game, but I still don’t really understand exactly how it looks or works, but if you already can see what people are doing and how much DPS they do, why are we still talking about this? It’s already in the game.

Hurf Derfman

@Inixia More like tears in the rain at this point. 🤭

Your response is honestly one if the better pro meter arguments in here.

At the very least there will be a high likelihood we'll get personal combat logs.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Caeryl

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

@/Inixia More like tears in the rain at this point. 🤭

Your response is honestly one if the better pro meter arguments in here.

At the very least there will be a high likelihood we'll get personal combat logs.

Yeah, that’s the one bright spot so combat log parsers can be developed similar to other games’, and I feel like Jeff is the primary one to thank for that. Bless his heart.

Edit: Breaking the ping

Azeem

Keep DPS meters in the dumpster fire it belongs in, world of warcraft, thank you.

Noaani

Caeryl wrote: »

Yeah, that’s the one bright spot so combat log parsers can be developed similar to other games’, and I feel like Jeff is the primary one to thank for that. Bless his heart.

Yeah, I think you are probably right.

Still though, it means Intrepid know full well that combat trackers will be a thing in the game - yet they are maintaining the same position on them. Not a fan of that stance at all.

Noaani

Azeem wrote: »

Keep DPS meters in the dumpster fire it belongs in, world of warcraft, thank you.

Combat trackers were around before WoW.

halbarz

Noaani wrote: »

Azeem wrote: »

Keep DPS meters in the dumpster fire it belongs in, world of warcraft, thank you.

Combat trackers were around before WoW.

very true

but WoW is still a dumpster fire

Regarding the meter discussion, I think that after 64 pages intrepid is aware of everyone's opinion.
I do hope to see everyone (pro or con meter) in the game

Noaani

halbarz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Azeem wrote: »

Keep DPS meters in the dumpster fire it belongs in, world of warcraft, thank you.

Combat trackers were around before WoW.

very true but WoW is still a dumpster fire

Regarding the meter discussion, I think that after 64 pages intrepid is aware of everyone's opinion.
I do hope to see everyone (pro or con meter) in the game

Completely agree about WoW - I think most people that have spent any time on these forums know my general thoughts on that game.

While the thread is long, there is still the occasional new point bought up, and also the occasional person coming in with misconceptions (actual misconceptions, not just a different opinion) on combat trackers.

This is why I am still posting in this thread, and have no real plans to stop doing so any time soon.

halbarz

Noaani wrote: »

halbarz wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Azeem wrote: »

Keep DPS meters in the dumpster fire it belongs in, world of warcraft, thank you.

Combat trackers were around before WoW.

very true but WoW is still a dumpster fire

Regarding the meter discussion, I think that after 64 pages intrepid is aware of everyone's opinion.
I do hope to see everyone (pro or con meter) in the game

Completely agree about WoW - I think most people that have spent any time on these forums know my general thoughts on that game.

While the thread is long, there is still the occasional new point bought up, and also the occasional person coming in with misconceptions (actual misconceptions, not just a different opinion) on combat trackers.

This is why I am still posting in this thread, and have no real plans to stop doing so any time soon.

I understand while we share somewhat of a different opinion. I think it is important to see your input. You are one of the few people that are willing to understand both sides and come with suggestions.

Keep it up I would say

Medrash1

@Noaani

Noaani wrote: »

This was suggested about 40 pages ago.

While it is a good idea in general, the issue with it is that if there is a way to share your combat tracker with others, groups and pick up raids will require this to be the case - meaning it is no longer an option to share - the only option is to do content or not do content.

That is why the suggestion I have been promoting for all but one page of this thread is to have a combat tracker that is an optional guild perk (that only top end PvE guilds would take) and that is automatically shared within your guild - but can not ever be shared outside of your guild.

This would mean that only guilds running top end content would have access to a tracker, and people not in such a guild would never be able to track anyone else, be tracked by anyone else, or ask others to share that data, as most players simply wouldn't have it, and those that do are unlikely to raid outside of their guild anyway.

This also means that when guilds are recruiting a player, they are unable to use a combat tracker on him. They can run content with potential new recruits to make sure they are not just generally idiots, but until the person is invited in to the guild, they can't use a combat tracker on them. Additionally, since that new recruit has never had a change to use a combat tracker themselves until joining that guild, this new recruit will obviously have some fine tuning to do in order to be at their highest level of performance.

This will mean that guilds will have to take on at least a partial role in providing training to these new recruits - which I personally think is a fantastic way for a game to be.

So it is a good idea in general but there is an issue ... i didn't get your problem anyway with my solution. It is no longer an option to share? What? The option is to do content or not? Of course ... if you don't want to play just turn off the game. Pls explain me better what you intend to say, the issue .
Why is a problem for you to share the combat tracker?
Of course a good and top guild want to know if you are good or not, that's how a mmorpg works ... no top tier guild with a focus of combat want a bad fighter in their team.
If you are new to the game a guild can still take you with them and learn to you how to fight, this doesn't change with the combat tracker ... they will train you anyway.

Your idea is not that good, becouse if you are not into a guild you miss an important instrument for yourself... and your teams. Also a guild can invite you and then kick you after he used the combat tracker into you, so it doesn't change anything, it just make everything worst. It will make waste time to both, the guild and you.

Also if the people without a guild cannot use the combat tracker it will kill the game choise of a player, becouse everyone will join a guild to get it and perform better. If you don't want to join a guild but still be strong you can't, and that a bad feature. Forcing people to ask the top guilds to take them in, creating an inflate of requests for the tops and punishing the small or alternative ones.

Everyone needs the chance to improve at the game beeing alone. It's up to you if you decide to get helped or not by the guild, there are many lone players, that's what makes a game a rpg one, the freedom of choise.
So everyone can use the combat tracker, it doesn't make any sense to give that feature to only guild. Maybe a guild can get a perk or improvement that makes possible to track multiple people .. that's fine .. maybe a robot. What do you think?

Tragnar

So far everyone that has come here with an anti-meter stance is actually hurting themselves. These concerns about negative interactions that can come out of the information that meters provide has value only when you can instantly replace people that perform below average.

Automation in finding people to group up with and instant travel for those people makes all of the concerns in this thread possible.

I try to imagine grouping up for dungeons during leveling in Ashes to be about finding people in your area. I want for that process to be only about finding a willing person to come, because I will rather have someone to come doing the worst damage imaginable than having an empty party slot that does nothing.

And in this world not having meters is an actual detriment, because I will be unable to coach these players for free if I have a wider knowledge of the game. Because me coaching other players in my group saves my own time.

When I played wow tbc for the first time all those years ago, in my first dungeon groups I was instructed what to do and what spells are just bad and what I should focus on. I became a better player after that experience - the same should be available to Ashes, because grouping up with other players should have an acceptable risk of them being bad, but actually replacing them should have a truly big punishment(mostly in time wasted waiting)

Noaani

Medrash wrote: »

So it is a good idea in general but there is an issue ... i didn't get your problem anyway with my solution.

You are talking about implementing a combat tracker with limitations.

While I am not at all against this, the limitations added need to be limitations that exist purely to mitigate issues that some players have with combat trackers.

Two of the main issues people have with combat trackers are that people do not want to feel forced in to needing to use one, and people do not want the games population split based on how willing to use a combat tracker people are.

Your suggestion does nothing at all to mitigate these two issues. If these issues are not dealt with, there is no point at all in having the limitations - we may as well have a limitless combat tracker.

Your idea is not that good, becouse if you are not into a guild you miss an important instrument for yourself... and your teams. Also a guild can invite you and then kick you after he used the combat tracker into you, so it doesn't change anything, it just make everything worst. It will make waste time to both, the guild and you.

Well, no. We already know we will have personal logs. You can use that all you want to work on improving yourself - at least as far as solo content is concerned.

In terms of group content, there has never been a game that has released single group content that needs the kind of fine tuning that is only available via a combat tracker. As such, any improving that may be needed in this regard can more than be taken care of via the personal logs as above.

It is only in the top end raiding sphere that there is an actual need (as in, the content requires it) for the level of fine tuning that can only be gained from full raid combat tracking. As such, it is perfectly reasonable and acceptable for this level of combat tracking to be restricted to people that would pick that as a guild perk over more tangable benefits.

As to people in such guild kicking others out - I don't necessarily see this happening. If you are running a top end guild in a game where the only actual combat tracker is only available in similar top end guilds, then you would make the assumption that every recruit that you have come through has only been able to use the personal combat logs in order to improve themselves. As such, you would assume that you need to put work in to these people.

It is also worth mentioning that guilds in this game will have a very limited pool of potential recruits. Unlike a game like WoW, there is not going to be any way to transfer servers (at least not to start). This means that guilds are restricted to players on their server, rather than to all players in the game.

Since only a small percentage of any games population is actually both interested in and capable of top end raiding, a top end guild that doesn't give new recruits a decent chance in such a game will find their numbers dwindling before long.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

then just join a guild/party/raid that doesnt use one or start one. i dont understand why we cant have a meter that you can use when you want and not use when it doesnt matter or you feel it doesnt matter or never ever use.

Yeah. That's not how it works.
Just don't attack me when I'm not in the mood for PvP. MMORPGs don't work that way, either.

Except that is how it works.

You chose the people you play with based on them playing the game in a similar manner to you.

If you come in to my group all RP'ing over the place, I will probably kick you. I won't kick people for poor performance, but I will for being a twat like that.

I chose to not play with RP'ers, it's my choice, every game allows me to do it, and it's easy.

If you want to RP like that, and don't want people using a combat tracker around you, then pick the people you play with in the same way I pick the people I play with.

If you know you don't like others using combat trackers around you, and yet you still find yourself in a group with someone using a combat tracker on you, you really have no one to blame other than yourself.

You put yourself in that situation. Stop trying to rid yourself of responsibility for your own actions.

Twang

@Tragnar There’s ways to go around a DPS meter, it’s just harder. You can get the same performance feedback for players based off of how combat goes and knowing their ability sequence. In BDO it wasn’t that hard to figure out which abilities just weren’t viable cuz of the time to use it compared to damage. Yeah it was easier due to much less health pools, but it’s only a matter of knowing situations/gear without a DPS meter.

Noaani

Morty wrote: »

In BDO

Yeah, but then you have to add in buffs, debuffs and other such things that BDO didn't really have (at least not in the way a game with 1/8th of it's classes being support should have).

BDO combat was simple from a mechanical perspective - even more simple than WoW.

Yet combat trackers still exist for it.

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