Open world raids

Tragnar wrote: »

I wouldn't be even opposed to "claiming" a raid once it is open so only 1 instance can be open at a time with maybe some qualifiers when these raids are about to open up to determine which guild gets to do it

Might as well implement a normal tried and true instanced raid then. I only see casual players losing out if this happens.

Tragnar

I think it only helps the game overall, because it works into the notion that raids are these mythical crypts where only the battlehardened adventurers dare to delve in order to kill these mythical beasts.

For PvE raiding be all inclusive for 90% of the game population is on plain sight in WoW now, they have piss easy difficulties just so the player can see the content.

Difficulty of the encounter itself can be upped, that is not the issue here. But access to the encounter itself being restricted is self-defeating as casual players lose out on the best parts when it comes to PvE.

Lets say I can raid from 9pm to midnight and have assembled a raid of 40 people. But by 9 pm the world boss is dead or some other guild has already hoarded that 1 instance of the raid at 7-8pm. I am straight out being denied the opportunity to raid itself here. Me or my raids capability is not even in the question. Not everyone can wait outside the entrance of an encounter waiting for their turn.

This is like either live for AoC or go home.

Tragnar wrote: »

I think it only helps the game overall, because it works into the notion that raids are these mythical crypts where only the battlehardened adventurers dare to delve in order to kill these mythical beasts.

Mythical crypts and beasts are fine, but let me at least enter them first.

"Ashes of creation is not for everyone". Some of my fondest memories from Lineage 2 are fighting other guilds for control of world bosses. I really hope they dont change the game to cater to WoW raiders.

Bricktop wrote: »

"Ashes of creation is not for everyone". Some of my fondest memories from Lineage 2 are fighting other guilds for control of world bosses. I really hope they dont change the game to cater to WoW raiders.

I hope they have both.

The issue with L2 bosses is that they weren't a challenge. They were fun to fight for, but if you got then without anyone trying to stop you, you had an easy time of it.

Ashes needs encounters like that, for sure. But it also needs PvE encounters that are challenging for the PvE aspects of them, not because someone keeps sniping your tank.

Grievousness

"Ashes of creation is not for everyone"
@Bricktop
Maybe it is just me, but that quote seems to be highly overused from my point of view.
If you think Lineage 2 would be a good inspiration for the PvP part of the game,
why can't WoW be an inspiration for the PvE side?
(things that mutually exclude each other aside of course)

Ashes of Creation is a PvX game from what the devs told us it is supposed to have PvE and PvP content.
If they can't deliver on the PvE part they do not only fail to archieve what they wanted the game to be,
but also alienate the bigger portion of the MMO community.
Judging from the population of MMOs it seems reasonable to assume that there are more people playing them for PvE than PvP.

PvE doesn't need to be over the top great, but at least decent.

Xenantaya

I understand that Vanguard had open world dungeons and raids. Did anyone here play Vanguard, and could they offer any insight on whether large groups simply overwhelmed bosses? (I played Vanguard briefly in its beta, but not on release.)

Bricktop wrote: »

"Ashes of creation is not for everyone". Some of my fondest memories from Lineage 2 are fighting other guilds for control of world bosses. I really hope they dont change the game to cater to WoW raiders.

So, dont cater to WoW raiders but catering to lineage is fine? The only word I have in mind for you is WOW, ironic really.

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

"Ashes of creation is not for everyone". Some of my fondest memories from Lineage 2 are fighting other guilds for control of world bosses. I really hope they dont change the game to cater to WoW raiders.

I hope they have both.

The issue with L2 bosses is that they weren't a challenge. They were fun to fight for, but if you got then without anyone trying to stop you, you had an easy time of it.

Ashes needs encounters like that, for sure. But it also needs PvE encounters that are challenging for the PvE aspects of them, not because someone keeps sniping your tank.

I agree with you, Challenging boss mechanics I expect and hope to be in the game. Instanced raids where you are under no threat besides from mobs? I don't want to see it happen personally. Dungeons will become a place in the world worth fighting over and controlling in the current system. Guilds can promise their citizens that they will keep the node and surrounding dungeons safe for them, while enemy guilds can make the node unsafe for the citizens by running gank squads through the territory. Instanced raids will ruin part of the player driven potential the game has to offer. If your tank keeps getting sniped you need better security for the players on the mob.

Sylvanar wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

"Ashes of creation is not for everyone". Some of my fondest memories from Lineage 2 are fighting other guilds for control of world bosses. I really hope they dont change the game to cater to WoW raiders.

So, dont cater to WoW raiders but catering to lineage is fine? The only word I have in mind for you is WOW, ironic really.

Yes basically. I am sorry if this confuses you but Lineage 2 was an open world PvP guild driven game with harsh consequences to death and PKing where guilds fight for control of good spots on the map to level/grind mobs. AoC will be guild driven, guilds fighting for control over areas/dungeons/caravan routes/whatever. Instanced raids completely detract from the guild driven player driven game that AoC is going for. Instead of changing the game to be more like WoW, WoW players can just play WoW imo.

@Bricktop

Bricktop wrote: »

Dungeons will become a place in the world worth fighting over and controlling in the current system. Guilds can promise their citizens that they will keep the node and surrounding dungeons safe for them, while enemy guilds can make the node unsafe for the citizens by running gank squads through the territory. Instanced raids will ruin part of the player driven potential the game has to offer. If your tank keeps getting sniped you need better security for the players on the mob.

I agree with your general premise here, but with a different conclusion.

I want to see instanced raid encounters in the game so that there are situations where players can fight PvE encounters in a completely known setting (known to the designer of the content). This allows content to be highly curated, complex encounters.

It also means guilds are able to know there is some content available to them - since raid bosses may have a respawn timer of several days, if there isn't any instanced raid content, guilds will have no content they can plan around - and a guild without content to plan around is a guild that moves to another game.

Now, I am not suggesting all encounters should be like this, but some should.

However, I also agree that the basic ideal of Ashes makes that hard. Guilds and nodes should be able to fight over and control access to this content.

This is why my suggestion for a long while now has been that raid dungeons should have two or three single boss instances in them.

Since there is no instant porting to instances, players wanting to go to these instanced bosses will still need to work through the dungeon. This means any guild controlling that dungeon is also controlling those instances, as you can't get to them unless you pass that guild.

anotherone

There have to be instanced raids, thats a classical mmo content! All the other content is fine for me and can be balanced with rewarding them higher so its still better to get to open world raids. But instanced raids are the best experience for pve players because you can desgin these raids very challenging. No instanced raids is a nogo for me, maybe its to complicated to implement them for Intrepid. Why the hell any game designer wouldnt have these feature in his game? Its just lazyness in my opnion...

...

Bricktop wrote: »

Yes basically. I am sorry if this confuses you but Lineage 2 was an open world PvP guild driven game with harsh consequences to death and PKing where guilds fight for control of good spots on the map to level/grind mobs. AoC will be guild driven, guilds fighting for control over areas/dungeons/caravan routes/whatever. Instanced raids completely detract from the guild driven player driven game that AoC is going for. Instead of changing the game to be more like WoW, WoW players can just play WoW imo.

1. AoC is not Lineage version 2.0
2. AoC is not WoW version 2.0
3. AoC IS PvX, not PvP only.
4. I am not asking AoC to "cater" to WoW players. WoW players are playing WoW.
5. I am not against open world PvE, but not having instanced raids straight out removes casual players access to PvE.
6. Not everyone would be interested in mandatory PvP just to access PvE, which makes no sense, IMO.
7. There are many instance/opportunities for PvP already present in the game - Node siege, castle siege and other battlegrounds. Leave PvE out of this.
8. What kind of argument is that, this wasnt present in L2 so it should not be present here? I thought the games name was AoC, not Lineage 2.
9. If L2 is so OP, why are you here? Shouldnt L2 players just play L2?

Fact: WoW is leading in MMO so they must be doing something right, right? Where is L2 on the MMO map exactly at the moment?

I am neither a WoW fanboy nor a L2 hater. I am not here to "compare" games. I am here to state why something should be implemented. "Why" being the keyword here. Not WoW. Why. I am not sorry if this confuses you.

FYI, I dont play WoW. It has its own shortcomings which is why I am here. Again why are you not in L2?

Lastly, "Ashes of creation is not for everyone" goes both ways.

Noaani wrote: »

Snip

I see what you are saying as well. I suppose if they had to add instanced boss encounters I would prefer your way. At least that gives a chance for the player driven stuff that we were talking about.

However I personally don't see it being a problem that guilds can't plan everything they do. I can see your point and why they might want to add a few instanced things, but isn't it already confirmed that its something like an 80/20 split for open world vs instanced?

If your raid group can't kill any bosses that night take your 40 players and go start a fight in an enemy controlled zone. Break it down into 5 groups and grind dungeons. Run BGs, it's an MMO there's (hopefully) a million things to do. Take the down time to plan how you could get more boss kills, maybe that involves allying yourself to a better guild. I could see this affecting guilds that are trying to be raiding only guilds but that won't work in this game. It's a true PvX game where you are gonna need to PvP other players to PvE down an important boss. Can they not add a complex curated encounter for an open world boss? Genuinely asking.

@Noaani

Bricktop wrote: »

However I personally don't see it being a problem that guilds can't plan everything they do.

Not everything needs to be planned, but some things do.

If all content is contested, that means that every server will have a few guilds that get most of the content, and a few guilds that never get the content. As that continues, the guilds that get the content get better gear, making it easier for them to always get the content.

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

However I personally don't see it being a problem that guilds can't plan everything they do.

Not everything needs to be planned, but some things do.

If all content is contested, that means that every server will have a few guilds that get most of the content, and a few guilds that never get the content. As that continues, the guilds that get the content get better gear, making it easier for them to always get the content.

And if that happens those few guilds recognize the problem, band together to form an alliance to compete and go to war with the massive zerg. I think this game will be similiar to eve where the sands are always shifting and alliances and guilds rise and fall over the years.

Bricktop wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

However I personally don't see it being a problem that guilds can't plan everything they do.

Not everything needs to be planned, but some things do.

If all content is contested, that means that every server will have a few guilds that get most of the content, and a few guilds that never get the content. As that continues, the guilds that get the content get better gear, making it easier for them to always get the content.

And if that happens those few guilds recognize the problem, band together to form an alliance to compete and go to war with the massive zerg.

No, they go to another game.

Players that are in a guild attempting to be top end PvE players don't want to be a part of a zerg. They would rather run PvE content somewhere else. Most of them have a hundred times more loyalty to their guild than to any one game they are playing.

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

However I personally don't see it being a problem that guilds can't plan everything they do.

Not everything needs to be planned, but some things do.

If all content is contested, that means that every server will have a few guilds that get most of the content, and a few guilds that never get the content. As that continues, the guilds that get the content get better gear, making it easier for them to always get the content.

And if that happens those few guilds recognize the problem, band together to form an alliance to compete and go to war with the massive zerg.

No, they go to another game.

Players that are in a guild attempting to be top end PvE players don't want to be a part of a zerg. They would rather run PvE content somewhere else. Most of them have a hundred times more loyalty to their guild than to any one game they are playing.

But I don't think the game should cater to PvE players, so this doesn't bother me personally. I hope it works so that If you want to kill bosses in ashes you better be ready to kill other players.

Bricktop wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

However I personally don't see it being a problem that guilds can't plan everything they do.

Not everything needs to be planned, but some things do.

If all content is contested, that means that every server will have a few guilds that get most of the content, and a few guilds that never get the content. As that continues, the guilds that get the content get better gear, making it easier for them to always get the content.

And if that happens those few guilds recognize the problem, band together to form an alliance to compete and go to war with the massive zerg.

No, they go to another game.

Players that are in a guild attempting to be top end PvE players don't want to be a part of a zerg. They would rather run PvE content somewhere else. Most of them have a hundred times more loyalty to their guild than to any one game they are playing.

But I don't think the game should cater to PvE players, so this doesn't bother me personally. I hope it works so that If you want to kill bosses in ashes you better be ready to kill other players.

It shouldn't cater to players that only want to PvE, but it should cater to players that mostly want to PvE.

Just as it shouldn't cater to players that only want to PvP, but it should cater to players that mostly want to PvP.

With the scenario of having instances in raid dungeons, guilds will also still need to fight their way back out. Since they will be doing so with crafting materials, there is a chance that they could lose them if killed - so this risk is still there.