Marcet wrote: » I don't like open world dungeons at all. All dungeons instanced, thats what I want.
Xyls wrote: » Marcet wrote: » I don't like open world dungeons at all. All dungeons instanced, thats what I want. You probably won't like this game. Already confirmed 80% of content is open world because this is an open world game.
Grievousness wrote: » I don't know, maybe I am wrong but in every mmo I played so far world bosses felt like big trash mobs that took long to kill. From my experience having a challenging boss is mutually exclusive with it being in the open world.
neuroguy wrote: » Yeah I really worry about this. I personally love instanced raids with complicated bosses and cool mechanics (I haven't really seen such things exist in open world yet).
Warth wrote: » Cross post from another post, as it is relevant here. The Raid Tier Bosses should: be just as hard as you'd expect an instanced Mythic WoW/ Savage FFXIV Raid Boss to be. A Level of difficulty where you need a dedicated group of PvErs to kill it. should have clear and very effective "Fuck you Zergs" mechanics, that inhibit all ways of zerging him down. have a long run up/narrow passage leading up to the boss, that allow the "support aka PVP Raid" to defend the boss attempt of your PVE Raid from other factions trying to interfere. This provides challenging PvE Content for the PvE Crowd requires a need for both PvE and PvP Focused players to work together avoids zerging avoids the ability of people to interfere in the boss attempt through utilizing the Anti-Zerg-Mechanics. Which seems to be exactly what they are going for judging from the dungeon design they have shown with the dragon dungeon. There is a portal you have to take to get to the final boss room, which essentially makes the kill attempt "defend-able".
Noaani wrote: » neuroguy wrote: » Yeah I really worry about this. I personally love instanced raids with complicated bosses and cool mechanics (I haven't really seen such things exist in open world yet). I've seen it, but only in one game - EQ2. The hardest encounter for about half of the content cycles in that game was an open world encounter. The way it worked in that game though, was as soon as a raid tagged the encounter, the encounter was locked to that raid. This meant that others weren't able to interfere, and also that only one raid could attack the encounter. Because these encounters were hard, guilds usually took a few pills to kill them, even if they have done the encounter a half dozen times. This means that if your guild does wipe while fighting the encounter, another guild may pull it. You are then essentially left hoping that they wipe so you can have another shot. Also, since these encounters are only available once per 7 - 10 days for the whole server (as opposed to once per guild that opens up an instance), the rewards from these encounters is even better than the difficulty would suggest. In EQ2, almost every item dropped from these encounters was the best of its type in the game - and due to their rarity even players in guilds with a monopoly on them couldn't guarantee the items they want will actually drop (which went some way to that game never having a single best build meta). It is an enjoyable content type, but the developers need to have the balls to tell their players to accept that sometime they won't get to kill the hardest encounter in the game. To me, this is fine as one type of raid content, but simply not acceptable as the only type.
Vhaeyne wrote: » Warth wrote: » Cross post from another post, as it is relevant here. The Raid Tier Bosses should: be just as hard as you'd expect an instanced Mythic WoW/ Savage FFXIV Raid Boss to be. A Level of difficulty where you need a dedicated group of PvErs to kill it. should have clear and very effective "Fuck you Zergs" mechanics, that inhibit all ways of zerging him down. have a long run up/narrow passage leading up to the boss, that allow the "support aka PVP Raid" to defend the boss attempt of your PVE Raid from other factions trying to interfere. This provides challenging PvE Content for the PvE Crowd requires a need for both PvE and PvP Focused players to work together avoids zerging avoids the ability of people to interfere in the boss attempt through utilizing the Anti-Zerg-Mechanics. Which seems to be exactly what they are going for judging from the dungeon design they have shown with the dragon dungeon. There is a portal you have to take to get to the final boss room, which essentially makes the kill attempt "defend-able". The issue with having the bosses be "Mythic WoW/ Savage FFXIV" tier difficulty is that those fights take hours to days of progression to master. That can't realistically be expected in a open world environment. I really wish they would do something like, have the open world bosses drop an item that would allow a party temporary access to a instanced "Mythic WoW/ Savage FFXIV" fight. Maybe like a POE map where you get so many attempts before it is wasted.
Xyls wrote: » The PvE purists in this thread are either ignorant or purposely ignoring a major part of content in AoC... and that is working with other guilds to complete the content. If your PvE guild wants go against a world boss with no interruptions from other players, then you are going to have to hire some PvP guilds to protect you while you are making your attempts. It won't be like instanced raids, you won't have the easy mode prep time you do in instanced content, you will have to adapt and overcome those challenges to be successful.
Xyls wrote: » The inspiration for AoC is Archeage and L2, not WoW... not other PvE focused games. You all have plenty of games focused on that aspect of the game. Let's see where the Devs vision for AoC takes the game before you all start whining about there not being enough content for how you want to play MMOs.
Grievousness wrote: » Xyls wrote: » The PvE purists in this thread are either ignorant or purposely ignoring a major part of content in AoC... and that is working with other guilds to complete the content. If your PvE guild wants go against a world boss with no interruptions from other players, then you are going to have to hire some PvP guilds to protect you while you are making your attempts. It won't be like instanced raids, you won't have the easy mode prep time you do in instanced content, you will have to adapt and overcome those challenges to be successful. Nobody is asking for it because they cannot work around player interaction. The point of the matter is that open world content just flat out sucks in 99% of the cases. It is mostly not skillful content but a zergfest. People want content they can strive for and work towards. PvP has sieges. What PvE content is there that is even remotely as meaningful and would prevent roughly half of the playerbase to just leave the game once grinding stuff for no reason gets boring? How is asking for PvE content that is skillful ignorant if Steven literally said they want to design PvE content for all kinds of players? Xyls wrote: » The inspiration for AoC is Archeage and L2, not WoW... not other PvE focused games. You all have plenty of games focused on that aspect of the game. Let's see where the Devs vision for AoC takes the game before you all start whining about there not being enough content for how you want to play MMOs. Archeage had instanced content it did not impact the living open world to a devastating degree if any at all. L2 is dead, it is fine to take inspiration from it but obviously it wasn't great enough to stand the test of time. Making a copy paste of it seems like a crazy thing to do. Even WoW has an open world and pvp player interaction (at least on PvP servers). What you don't get is that there is more than 100% PvP and 100% PvE things exist on a spectrum. Nobody wants or demands a full PvE game but refusing any PvE content apart from grinding without meaning is just bad for the game.
Warth wrote: » Lineage 2 has a lifetime revenue of more than 1 Billion USD. Pretty sure Steven would be a very very happy man if he could just copy paste the success of it.
Warth wrote: » Also, Lineage 2 is a completely different game, certain aspects being inspired by it doesn't mean it will be the same game. Also, attributing the Death of Lineage 2 in the West due to the lack of PvE Content shows ignorance from your side. If you can even call it a reason, then it wouldn't even tank in the top 10. Heavy Mismanagement from NCSoft West, rampant botting and RMT issues, complete disregard for most features that make an MMORPG an RPG, The fact, that it wasn't designed with western players in mind (hardcore grinding, heavy RNG based game system..). all attributed to its fall in the west. There is lots of reasons to count, non of which is even remotely relevant to this thread.
Warth wrote: » ArcheAge certainly did have non-instanced and instanced PvE Content. The gear rewards from that were subpar at best. In the original development progression from ArcheAge (Classic to 5.0) PvE gear wasn't even remotely relevant to the gearing process. It was pretty much the f2p casual alternative to the top-tier gear owned by p2w and hardcore players. It certainly didn't impact the open world to a large extent, mostly because it was barely even relevant for the non-casual player.
Warth wrote: » Funny that you mention the open world and PvP Design of WoW. They can easily be rated as barely a 2.5 out of 10.
Warth wrote: » To build on this, instead of looking for solutions that fit into the design principles of the game, you create a convoluted mess of a problem, which you then attempt to fix through instanced PvE Content. Zergs? Zergs can be dealt with easily. Easy Tank and spank world bosses in other games? Can be dealt with easily. You start mixing and matching these problems to dismiss solution for each one of them based on the argument, that they don't fix the others. The only thing you guys are trying to do is further your agenda to make this game more WoW-like whether this goes against the core design principles of the game or not.
Grievousness wrote: » Warth wrote: » To build on this, instead of looking for solutions that fit into the design principles of the game, you create a convoluted mess of a problem, which you then attempt to fix through instanced PvE Content. Zergs? Zergs can be dealt with easily. Easy Tank and spank world bosses in other games? Can be dealt with easily. You start mixing and matching these problems to dismiss solution for each one of them based on the argument, that they don't fix the others. The only thing you guys are trying to do is further your agenda to make this game more WoW-like whether this goes against the core design principles of the game or not. Having some instanced areas doesn't destroy the overarching open world. Since not only WoW has instances but a lot of MMOs even ones that they take inspiration from like AA. It is self evident that this is not exclusively a WoW-like thing.
bigepeen wrote: » Having instanced areas basically does destroy the overarching open world. What happens is people start treating the open world as a waiting lobby for their instanced PvE content. Then it'll go down the route of WoW, with a mostly empty open world with people standing around cities waiting to join their sequestored dungeons. Finally, a gigantic portion of this player-base will realize how unfun this is, and yearn for the classic WoW's open world and will literally be willing to play an outdated version of the game just because the partitioned instance PvE carebears ruined the open world.
