The importance of getting lost

I’ve spent enough time wandering around the wild spaces of this world to fill a book or two. There is something wholly unique about being out there, away from ‘civilization’, being vulnerable, yet determined.

Being lost is a novelty now, and it would be nice to have that feeling in AoC. Instead of giving me omniscient access to a world map, give me the ability to make maps and use them. Let me iterate them. Make notes. Make mistakes. Get lost. Let there be a cost to exploration, risk, and consequences.

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RedFlo

I like the idea in a some scenarios, but mostly I'm against it. Sure, the feeling of finding something new and interesting that wasn't pointed out to you on a map sounds really nice.

Having that on a map the size of Verra, makes this not sound so fun to me at all. At least give me some kind of map, to orientate myself.

Some people might really like the feeling of being lost, but most players might be turned down and stop playing because they can't find what they are looking for.

CROW3

Sylvanar wrote: »

Maybe as a profession then?

Lets say the default map has the name of locations and stuff but apart from that barely any information. This way people who do not want to leave their comfort zone can still navigate from location A to location B, but not much else.

The cartographer can make notes on the map, highlight important routes, NPCs and stuff. I dont know much about this but whatever is possible. This way each cartographers will have a unique map. Maybe they can then sell their maps and earn in game currency from it. Map becomes more and more expensive with more information added to it.

@CROW3 maybe you can expand on this as I don't have any knowledge regarding cartography.

Yeah... that’s where my imagination went too. 🙂

If I were going to sketch out an approach I’d start by asking some basic scoping questions:

- What are the core functions of a player’s world map? You could further break this down to must have, should have, nice to have.
- Which of these capabilities should a player have by default, and which should be produced by a cartographer?
- Where are the practical boundaries for a set of players? What would players enjoy, tolerate, or find frustrating?
- What tools would a cartographer use and augment (e.g. compass, limner’s box, sextant, etc)?
- What materials would a cartographer use (e.g. paper, ink, salt, etc)
- What is the end result and how would that be acquired and consumed by a player?
- What does the skill look like in game (i.e. a channeled spell, a mini-game, etc)?
- Can the cartographer customize their creation with notes, icons, etc?
- Are there other variables that should impact quality and accuracy (e.g. time of day, familiarity, reputation w/local box factions, elevation, etc)?
- What would this look like at scale? I.e. with 10/1,000/10,000 cartographers...
- Are there practical benefits to having a cartographer in your party that could lead to new discoveries in an area or dungeon (similar to rogue finding a secret passage)?
- Are there special benefits / quests for cartographers that advance a node, or become available when a node advances?
- Do certain races create better types of maps than others (e.g. maybe elves have a better sense of outdoor areas while dwarves have a better sense of dungeons)?
- Can a disgruntled cartographer turn the tide of a node siege? I.e. here’s the back door... have fun!

Just some of the questions to help guide the way, then I would begin iterating from there until there was something worth shaking a stick at.

FuryBladeborne

I think that fog of war is sufficient. The game can create the sense of exploration by drawing out the map as I explore it rather than drawing the map myself. It will just look much better.

Hurrikhan

Exploration is my main drive.
I wholeheartedly agree on the importance of getting lost.

Merek

Sylvanar wrote: »

1. Let me just point out that Verra is 480 sq. km.

2. If there were some perk to exploration like say general flight or teleportation then it would have some meaning otherwise what is the reward to taking this immensely time consuming risk?

3. This is not about leaving comfort zone. Let me paint a scenario:

A: There is a world boss spawning near *insert location name*.
B: Ah, I dont know where that is...
As there is no world map, your friend cannot even help you unless you have explored some common area to use as reference.

4. I wonder how often you guyz use google maps for travelling?

Edit: I am not trying to be negative, but I doubt living in stone age would be interesting after a day or 2 when you cant find the NPC to whom you have to submit the quest. It's just impractical.

CROW3 wrote: »

There is something wholly unique about being out there, away from ‘civilization’, being vulnerable, yet determined.

Make notes. Make mistakes. Get lost. Let there be a cost to exploration, risk, and consequences.

Ask your friend to tell you about some place like a restaurant or a building or anything about which you dont know anything. Dont ask anyone where that place is. Find that place without any help. Make notes. Make mistakes. Get lost. See if you like the experience.

The idea is to simulate being "away from civilization".

1. 480 sq km isn't as large as it may sound.
2. I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. I'd say the ability to fly has meaning in and of itself?
3. I guess that's down to the individual, I myself find it very easy to maintain location awareness in gaming and real life. I'm aware some people find that difficult. No matter what, there's nothing stopping people from making 3rd party maps and sending them to their guild members in Teamspeak or Discord.
4. Rarely.

winner909098

I agree that people should be able to add on to the existing map, but also there should be specialized maps, of certain nodes/ dungeons and stuff like that, which could be hung on tavern walls.

Hystorix

The last game I remember having to make my own maps and I had a giant three ring binder of every zone eventually was everquest ... I enjoyed that a lot ... modern games feel they have to have an in game map I guess for the impatient generation /shrug

GrandHarfang

Hystorix wrote: »

modern games feel they have to have an in game map I guess for the impatient generation /shrug

Ah yes, the younger generations strike again.

BaSkA_9x2

I like the current idea of a World Map that comes all blacked out - Warcraft3's map fog of war comes to mind and I miss it dearly.

I hope you unlock 5 km² at a time when you discover a new location, so the entire map would be about 100 different locations to be discovered, not too much but not too easy, I wouldn't mind making it harder though. I would also like to have a compass and a way to know my current coordinate on the map.

Apart from that, I hope the rest will be an adventure.

XerayReaper

I don't think I've ever gotten, like legitimately, lost in an MMO; at least, none of the newer MMOs these days. I think back in FFXI there were times, when I entered a new zone and I didn't have a map for it yet, I had no idea where the next area would be and I ended up wandering around for a good while. It was pretty nerve-wracking back then, being that mobs could easily kill you and send you back to your last Homepoint(city or outpost you checked in to).

I liked the idea that players needed to actually buy maps from the vendors of a certain city/zone in order to get a map layout of the zone. Even better, that maps didn't have everything on them, it was just a barebones layout of like what you'd see someone draw of an area they ventured into. You had to place markers down on hidden areas, possible mob spawns, encampment, etc. Made the map feel more personal and made you want to look through every nook and cranny of that area to make sure you didn't miss any secrets.

I just don't know how AoC would do their map system, but I can see it being like all the newer MMOs today: Wander around and the map will fill out itself. That's not a bad thing though, but I agree on allowing the players to place markers down and edit the map with points of interest ourselves. I mean, we really shouldn't even have maps of this land to use, since it's been long gone and forgotten till now; according to lore, right?

PlagueMonk

CROW3 wrote: »

I’ve spent enough time wandering around the wild spaces of this world to fill a book or two. There is something wholly unique about being out there, away from ‘civilization’, being vulnerable, yet determined.

Being lost is a novelty now, and it would be nice to have that feeling in AoC. Instead of giving me omniscient access to a world map, give me the ability to make maps and use them. Let me iterate them. Make notes. Make mistakes. Get lost. Let there be a cost to exploration, risk, and consequences.

You also forgot to mention the possible REWARDS for exploration as well. With risk there should be a pay off should you be successful. Maybe you are the only one who has managed to navigate a treacherous area of the map and you can now sell that tidbit to others....for the right price

Xyphien

I think this would be amazing, allowing people the usage of exploration, selling their maps to others, potentially recreating maps, and with every new node there will have to be new exploration to find out new paths, dungeons, etc. to place on the map. It would add a whole secondary subclass.

Kneczhevo

I have to admit. I am so spoiled, when it comes to my surroundings, having radars and pre explored areas. I miss the days; pregoogle.

Here is what I proposed in another thread. I know, not well written. I got excited.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/46522/idea-cartography

Kneczhevo wrote: »

How do we create a system for Cartography? Well, I think I have one. I know it won't be popular, with some. But how do you do "map making" in a game, especially when everyone will have knowledge of most all places?

As a non progression skill. Cartography can follow the simple mechanics AoC provides.

T1 - Compass. Standard 360 compass we all know. Encluding compass markers.

T2 - Mini-Map. This is an upgrade to compass (obviously). You know, that little radar we all have used in all our games, and rely on.

T3 - Full Map. Full World Map with fog of war (places you've been). Investing points should give you a big advantage. This would give a big boon to navigators.

Ya, I know... It leaves out those who don't have (freshies), and can't tell north from south. But, it makes the skill and profession relivent.

Thoughts?

neuroguy

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade here but the whole cartography thing doesn't seem compatible with the released information about node specific perks. For example scientific nodes can have players upload information on "Locations and last known quantity of gatherable resources" and "Locations and inhabitants of new Dungeons or POIs (Points of Interest) that have spawned" and that sort of thing. It feels like a formal system for information dissemination. My understanding is that you don't need to upload information so people don't download it but yeah... I personally hated this news

. I will say this though, there may be some room for cartography in the naval/ocean system, that's the only place I can think of where something may be viable.

Source:
-https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-04-10-know-your-nodes-scientific-node-type
-https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-05-32-know-your-nodes-economic-node-type

I think it isn't really the sense of being lost that we all look for, and that's incredibly difficult to provide anyways, but rather a sense of uncertainty and mystery. I made some posts in the old forums about the use of imperfect information to drive this sense of exploration but I'm too lazy to dig them up. I do have something of the sort in this iteration of the forums (https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/42537/lost-opportunity/p1).

Just a brief TL/DR of my thoughts in those old threads and this one: since initially Intrepid said the game would use imperfect information to drive intrigue I envisioned a rumor system that would be perfect and only possible with the evolving world of AoC. Since when nodes level up the world changes and new points of interest may be available, it would be cool if when you talked to NPCs you could learn about rumors that they may have heard about the world. Now these rumors may 1) be false 2) be true or 3) be currently false but could be true if the state of the world changed e.g. the node level up revealing the rumored location. This sense of uncertainty about the information provided by rumors + a changing world would have you going back to zones and taking off to explore to try to find out if the rumors are true or not and have some cool adventures on the way. But alas it feels like with the node-specific perks this is not really going to be possible or supported

winner909098

neuroguy wrote: »

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade here but the whole cartography thing doesn't seem compatible with the released information about node specific perks. For example scientific nodes can have players upload information on "Locations and last known quantity of gatherable resources" and "Locations and inhabitants of new Dungeons or POIs (Points of Interest) that have spawned" and that sort of thing. It feels like a formal system for information dissemination. My understanding is that you don't need to upload information so people don't download it but yeah... I personally hated this news . I will say this though, there may be some room for cartography in the naval/ocean system, that's the only place I can think of where something may be viable.

Source:
-https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-04-10-know-your-nodes-scientific-node-type
-https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2019-05-32-know-your-nodes-economic-node-type

I think it isn't really the sense of being lost that we all look for, and that's incredibly difficult to provide anyways, but rather a sense of uncertainty and mystery. I made some posts in the old forums about the use of imperfect information to drive this sense of exploration but I'm too lazy to dig them up. I do have something of the sort in this iteration of the forums (https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/42537/lost-opportunity/p1).

Just a brief TL/DR of my thoughts in those old threads and this one: since initially Intrepid said the game would use imperfect information to drive intrigue I envisioned a rumor system that would be perfect and only possible with the evolving world of AoC. Since when nodes level up the world changes and new points of interest may be available, it would be cool if when you talked to NPCs you could learn about rumors that they may have heard about the world. Now these rumors may 1) be false 2) be true or 3) be currently false but could be true if the state of the world changed e.g. the node level up revealing the rumored location. This sense of uncertainty about the information provided by rumors + a changing world would have you going back to zones and taking off to explore to try to find out if the rumors are true or not and have some cool adventures on the way. But alas it feels like with the node-specific perks this is not really going to be possible or supported .

but that would only be for the vassal nodes and metro area. cartography would cover everything else

neuroguy

winner909098 wrote: »

but that would only be for the vassal nodes and metro area. cartography would cover everything else

That would be fairly poor game design to have a profession that is only useful in some cases and redundant otherwise. Especially when you consider that the whole world will be covered by the ZOI of 5 metros. I just don't see it having long term utility and would become obsolete quickly, I don't know.

Warth

neuroguy wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

but that would only be for the vassal nodes and metro area. cartography would cover everything else

That would be fairly poor game design to have a profession that is only useful in some cases and redundant otherwise. Especially when you consider that the whole world will be covered by the ZOI of 5 metros. I just don't see it having long term utility and would become obsolete quickly, I don't know.

Not if the maps just displayed what it was like at the time of drawing.

Maps should be very in-detail, including all the monsters types, roads, dungeons, resources you see but not change depending on the development of the world.

If the nodes on your map are LvL3, but they have developed to level 5, then the old map should not display that, should not display the new roads, dungeons, monster spawns, events etc. That should require a newly created map.

neuroguy

Warth wrote: »

neuroguy wrote: »

winner909098 wrote: »

but that would only be for the vassal nodes and metro area. cartography would cover everything else

That would be fairly poor game design to have a profession that is only useful in some cases and redundant otherwise. Especially when you consider that the whole world will be covered by the ZOI of 5 metros. I just don't see it having long term utility and would become obsolete quickly, I don't know.

Not if the maps just displayed what it was like at the time of drawing.

Maps should be very in-detail, including all the monsters types, roads, dungeons, resources you see but not change depending on the development of the world.

If the nodes on your map are LvL3, but they have developed to level 5, then the old map should not display that, should not display the new roads, dungeons, monster spawns, events etc. That should require a newly created map.

I think this is one of those cases where it sounds good, but would get really annoying really fast. I'm not personally a fan of this concept, but to each their own I guess.

Voidwalkers

Secret quests sprinkled in the wild, far away from nodes, and don't have a big obvious ! on the quest givers / origins, would also be nice.
Please do leave some subtle hints that would lead a dedicated explorer to them though.
A degree of randomness (regarding when, where, how these secret quests spawn & despawn) would be even better.

Nowadays quest information / guides in most newly released mmos are quickly posted online, and that kinda ruins the exploration fun. Of coz one can refuse to visit such quest-guide sites and insist on exploring everything blindly, but then one will also be forced to start at a disadvantage.

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