Dealing with random player killing in an open-world PvP MMO.

For such an ambitious player-driven MMO as Ashes, the presence of random player killing (RPK) poses a challenge.
How do you allow for player agency while protecting new / weak players?

On one hand, giving players the agency to dish out justice in blood makes the world much more interactive and unpredictable, as your reputation and behavior may have dire consequences.

However, the challenge is that this level of PvP-interactivity, typically also gives rise to RPKs. Some of which intentionally grief, and others who just PvP indiscriminately.

The corruption system is already a great safety mechanism against this. However, with player-interaction at the heart of Ashes it would be great to see additional counter-RPK mechanisms that are driven by the players themselves.
Bounty hunters as planned, are a great first step.

However, bounty hunting only taps into monetary motivation. It'd be great to provide tools by which guilds and players may establish a reputation of benevolence and fairness. If Newbie Joe can report a RPK or griefer to the local guild, then it puts justice back into the hands of players. If the game tracks and incentivizes such player-driven justice, then guilds may want their territory to garner a reputation as a safe haven with just proceedings.

If Anti-PKing or peacekeeping is made worthwhile in this sense, we'll be encouraging the community to respond to griefing or bad behavior organically.

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Jubilum

KHRONUS wrote: »

I am going to kill people on sight. Especially when they run by me and do some dumb janky emote as if we are friends. I'm going to murder them, then I am going to call some guildees over and we are going to murder the friends that they bring. When we have fed our bloodlust, we will loot up, finish farming and head back home.

I'm never going to kill lowbies in low lvl areas. If a low level is traveling through a high lvl area.....I will certainly contemplate it. I will also focus players who do kill low levels. People wanting to be near my area that are not a citizen of my city will be murdered. This is my perspective of how I will play. Others will hate me but hey.....at least I didn't grind them at spawn.

This is the exact attitude that will cause this game to fail and why I will not play. I refuse to be your victim.

Bricktop

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Mojottv Let's hope they don't trash the game by following Lineage. open world pvp that prohibits open world pvp....sounds like that failed game New World.

Lineage 2 was an extremely hardcore game with an absurd amount of PvP. You would PvP all day every day to defend your area while grinding mobs to get your exp. Lineage and New world are not even close to similiar.

The corruption system is there to prevent people from smashing lowbies all day. It's in a player's best interest to flag back if they are of equal level because they lose less gatherable materials this way.

Khronus

@Bricktop I never played Lineage but assumed it was carebear based on what the other guy said about it. From how you describe it, seems like I missed out on a good game.

@jubilum You don't want open world pvp in an open world pvp game? good bye I guess? Your forum Icon and your opinion on open world pvp are so vastly different, I don't think you know what you even want haha.

Bricktop

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Bricktop I never played Lineage but assumed it was carebear based on what the other guy said about it. From how you describe it, seems like I missed out on a good game.

@jubilum You don't want open world pvp in an open world pvp game? good bye I guess? Your forum Icon and your opinion on open world pvp are so vastly different, I don't think you know what you even want haha.

The corruption system in AoC is extremely similiar to Lineage 2's Karma system.

Mostly everybody flagged back in L2 because you would lose a lot less exp if you died flagged then if you got killed without flagging or defending yourself. And exp was painful to get in that game. I'm talking hours and hours of grinding mobs to get a few % of a level. And guild wars brought that exp loss down even more and made it impossible to get "corruption" from killing enemy guild members, so everybody was going to war often.

I recommend anybody go watch a few Lineage 2 mass PvP videos to see the flagging system in action.

Jubilum

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Bricktop I never played Lineage but assumed it was carebear based on what the other guy said about it. From how you describe it, seems like I missed out on a good game.

@jubilum You don't want open world pvp in an open world pvp game? good bye I guess? Your forum Icon and your opinion on open world pvp are so vastly different, I don't think you know what you even want haha.

I am looking forward to daily consensual pvp, I enjoy organized, meaningful pvp. It's the forced pvp/murder of people that don't want to participate in pvp to be forced to do so. It's just pure evil and morally corrupt to force a gamer to do something he/she has no desire to do.

It is shame that a game that ticks so many boxes for gamers has to insist on ruining the experience for a large percentage of the player base by insisting that they participate in such a horrific activity.

CaptnChuck

@Bricktop @Riegnar @Bangeo @Hurf Derfman @Tyrantor

Based on what we know of the corruption system, its highly exploitable and won't be good enough to stop griefing. There are several threads listing many of them, look it up.

But we don't know everything yet. So hopefully there will be mechanics to ensure that none of these exploits can occur in the game. I'm sure that the devs will alpha/beta test this and ensure that a balance is struck between player risk and player griefing.

maouw wrote: »

*Raises hand Hermione style*
I have a question!

Would people have an account that they pop into to PK and then log off?

Is that a thing?

@maouw

In one case yes. Viewers of a particular streamer might do this to constantly PK the streamer and ruin their experience.

Mass, continuous griefing is something that the current corruption system does not combat.

Thankfully though, I don't think that a lot of normal people would do this as there is no real benefit to it.

Bricktop

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@Bricktop @Riegnar @Bangeo @Hurf Derfman @Tyrantor

Based on what we know of the corruption system, its highly exploitable and won't be good enough to stop griefing. There are several threads listing many of them, look it up.

But we don't know everything yet. So hopefully there will be mechanics to ensure that none of these exploits can occur in the game. I'm sure that the devs will alpha/beta test this and ensure that a balance is struck between player risk and player griefing.

I think you will never make everybody happy and there are going to be people disappointed at launch when they discover the amount of PvP the game will actually have since it's based around L2 and Archeage.

Your definition of grieifing and mine differ I can assure you that.

CROW3

jubilum wrote: »

I am looking forward to daily consensual pvp...

Based on all available information, logging into AoC IS your consent to participate in pvp.

CaptnChuck

Bricktop wrote: »

Your definition of grieifing and mine differ I can assure you that.

@Bricktop

There is no subjective definition to griefing. Only an objective one. Killing a player once or twice isn't griefing. Killing an innocent player, multiple times, is griefing. Killing multiple innocent players is also griefing.

Causing disruption in a player's routine isn't griefing. But negatively affecting their in game experience, for a large amount of time, is griefing.

If you actually read through some of the threads on this forum before you joined, you will notice that a lot of them discuss actual issues involving griefing and how the current corruption system won't be capable of handling it. But ofc, we don't know everything yet and a lot of this might not exist in AoC by the time of launch, as I'm sure that the devs will playtest this extensively.

Dolyem

jubilum wrote: »

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Bricktop I never played Lineage but assumed it was carebear based on what the other guy said about it. From how you describe it, seems like I missed out on a good game.

@jubilum You don't want open world pvp in an open world pvp game? good bye I guess? Your forum Icon and your opinion on open world pvp are so vastly different, I don't think you know what you even want haha.

I am looking forward to daily consensual pvp, I enjoy organized, meaningful pvp. It's the forced pvp/murder of people that don't want to participate in pvp to be forced to do so. It's just pure evil and morally corrupt to force a gamer to do something he/she has no desire to do.

It is shame that a game that ticks so many boxes for gamers has to insist on ruining the experience for a large percentage of the player base by insisting that they participate in such a horrific activity.

Could say the same, forcing PvPers wanting an open PvP game to play an opt in pvp system. It isnt a bad thing, its just not for you. Nobody is going to force you to play this game. Just because a system isnt to your liking doesnt make it wrong. And the corruption system penalizes anyone for taking advantage of people like you so... I dont know what to tell you except go play New World or Retail WoW. Otherwise quit complaining about it seeing as it is literally a core system for AoC that will not be getting switched out.

Tyrantor

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Your definition of grieifing and mine differ I can assure you that.

@Bricktop

There is no subjective definition to griefing. Only an objective one. Killing a player once or twice isn't griefing. Killing an innocent player, multiple times, is griefing. Killing multiple innocent players is also griefing.

LOL I hope everyone gets the humor in this reply, or should I say, because of this reply.

CaptnChuck

Tyrantor wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Your definition of grieifing and mine differ I can assure you that.

@Bricktop

There is no subjective definition to griefing. Only an objective one. Killing a player once or twice isn't griefing. Killing an innocent player, multiple times, is griefing. Killing multiple innocent players is also griefing.

LOL I hope everyone gets the humor in this reply, or should I say, because of this reply.

I get my humor from watching spineless worms like you talking.

Jubilum

Dolyem wrote: »

jubilum wrote: »

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Bricktop I never played Lineage but assumed it was carebear based on what the other guy said about it. From how you describe it, seems like I missed out on a good game.

@jubilum You don't want open world pvp in an open world pvp game? good bye I guess? Your forum Icon and your opinion on open world pvp are so vastly different, I don't think you know what you even want haha.

I am looking forward to daily consensual pvp, I enjoy organized, meaningful pvp. It's the forced pvp/murder of people that don't want to participate in pvp to be forced to do so. It's just pure evil and morally corrupt to force a gamer to do something he/she has no desire to do.

It is shame that a game that ticks so many boxes for gamers has to insist on ruining the experience for a large percentage of the player base by insisting that they participate in such a horrific activity.

Could say the same, forcing PvPers wanting an open PvP game to play an opt in pvp system. It isnt a bad thing, its just not for you. Nobody is going to force you to play this game. Just because a system isnt to your liking doesnt make it wrong. And the corruption system penalizes anyone for taking advantage of people like you so... I dont know what to tell you except go play New World or Retail WoW. Otherwise quit complaining about it seeing as it is literally a core system for AoC that will not be getting switched out.

I am not complaining about anything, I have been pointing out for 3 years that this is a terrible decision and will continue to do so until launch day. Unless there is dissent on this topic AoC will not change. They will eventually see the light and realize the almighty buck reins supreme, if not I have no respect for their business model and will not play their game.

Dolyem

jubilum wrote: »

Dolyem wrote: »

jubilum wrote: »

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Bricktop I never played Lineage but assumed it was carebear based on what the other guy said about it. From how you describe it, seems like I missed out on a good game.

@jubilum You don't want open world pvp in an open world pvp game? good bye I guess? Your forum Icon and your opinion on open world pvp are so vastly different, I don't think you know what you even want haha.

I am looking forward to daily consensual pvp, I enjoy organized, meaningful pvp. It's the forced pvp/murder of people that don't want to participate in pvp to be forced to do so. It's just pure evil and morally corrupt to force a gamer to do something he/she has no desire to do.

It is shame that a game that ticks so many boxes for gamers has to insist on ruining the experience for a large percentage of the player base by insisting that they participate in such a horrific activity.

Could say the same, forcing PvPers wanting an open PvP game to play an opt in pvp system. It isnt a bad thing, its just not for you. Nobody is going to force you to play this game. Just because a system isnt to your liking doesnt make it wrong. And the corruption system penalizes anyone for taking advantage of people like you so... I dont know what to tell you except go play New World or Retail WoW. Otherwise quit complaining about it seeing as it is literally a core system for AoC that will not be getting switched out.

I am not complaining about anything, I have been pointing out for 3 years that this is a terrible decision and will continue to do so until launch day. Unless there is dissent on this topic AoC will not change. They will eventually see the light and realize the almighty buck reins supreme, if not I have no respect for their business model and will not play their game.

Still sounds like complaining, especially if you have been going on about it for 3 years. I would also like to see where you are getting your "High percentage" players numbers agreeing with you. Because if anything people have been praising the open world pvp more than damning it from what I have seen in streaming chats and youtube videos. And complaining about the system for the next year or 2 is going to be a waste of your breath seeing as several other systems the game is built on relies on open world pvp. The needless ganking you are likely very against is taken care of with the corruption system, so what you are telling me is just that you personally are unhappy that there is a risk of you getting ganked by another player, despite a system being put in place to negatively affect them. You're going to be wasting your breath until release, only to go back to whatever other opt-in pvp game you have been playing, or used to play. AoC is on the right path, open world PvP with consequences to ganking sounds amazing. If you want a game where your hand is held all the way through go play world of warcraft.

Merek

jubilum wrote: »

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Bricktop I never played Lineage but assumed it was carebear based on what the other guy said about it. From how you describe it, seems like I missed out on a good game.

@jubilum You don't want open world pvp in an open world pvp game? good bye I guess? Your forum Icon and your opinion on open world pvp are so vastly different, I don't think you know what you even want haha.

I am looking forward to daily consensual pvp, I enjoy organized, meaningful pvp. It's the forced pvp/murder of people that don't want to participate in pvp to be forced to do so. It's just pure evil and morally corrupt to force a gamer to do something he/she has no desire to do.

It is shame that a game that ticks so many boxes for gamers has to insist on ruining the experience for a large percentage of the player base by insisting that they participate in such a horrific activity.

The game was always advertised as such, an open-world PVP game. Why did you back the project without realizing this? It's people like you that have held MMO's back for years. You buy into a project without thinking about what you're getting into and then when it hits you, you lose your mind. If they do for some reason, gut the PVP in this game, like Amazon did with New World, enjoy your 6 months of entertainment before it's dead.

Bricktop

Merek wrote: »

jubilum wrote: »

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Bricktop I never played Lineage but assumed it was carebear based on what the other guy said about it. From how you describe it, seems like I missed out on a good game.

@jubilum You don't want open world pvp in an open world pvp game? good bye I guess? Your forum Icon and your opinion on open world pvp are so vastly different, I don't think you know what you even want haha.

I am looking forward to daily consensual pvp, I enjoy organized, meaningful pvp. It's the forced pvp/murder of people that don't want to participate in pvp to be forced to do so. It's just pure evil and morally corrupt to force a gamer to do something he/she has no desire to do.

It is shame that a game that ticks so many boxes for gamers has to insist on ruining the experience for a large percentage of the player base by insisting that they participate in such a horrific activity.

The game was always advertised as such, an open-world PVP game. Why did you back the project without realizing this? It's people like you that have held MMO's back for years. You buy into a project without thinking about what you're getting into and then when it hits you, you lose your mind. If they do for some reason, gut the PVP in this game, like Amazon did with New World, enjoy your 6 months of entertainment before it's dead.

Don't worry. They won't gut this game. The creative director has a vision and it's based off L2 and Archeage, 2 games chock full of PvP.

Mojottv

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Mojottv Let's hope they don't trash the game by following Lineage. open world pvp that prohibits open world pvp....sounds like that failed game New World.

The best part of Lineage 2 was that it was least prohibitive mmo i ever played. But due to success of wow, where its all about everyone wins, everyone matters, be nice to each other and stay safe what killed mmorpg genre.

In lineage 2 you could kill whoever you wanted where you wanted, except for cities. That being said, the non concensual pvp was punishable in terms of karma (corruption), which was not too much a big deal to deal with, unless you go on killing spree, then you might as well reroll. It doesnt eliminate completely griefing, but makes it extremely punishable and by griefing i mean going around just killing random people who want no part in pvp.

So its really refreshing to see at least one game that took this system back.

Mojottv

Bricktop wrote: »

KHRONUS wrote: »

@Mojottv Let's hope they don't trash the game by following Lineage. open world pvp that prohibits open world pvp....sounds like that failed game New World.

Lineage 2 was an extremely hardcore game with an absurd amount of PvP. You would PvP all day every day to defend your area while grinding mobs to get your exp. Lineage and New world are not even close to similiar.

The corruption system is there to prevent people from smashing lowbies all day. It's in a player's best interest to flag back if they are of equal level because they lose less gatherable materials this way.

thats not entirely true, you would get same exp penalty for either being killed while flagged or unflagged. Players usually would flag back to fight back and to avoid being killed at all. so if 4 players gank you and try to flag on you, you would just ignore them, run away or let them pk you, so you could come back and kill the one with karma to get his shit or force him to get even more karma, or his teamates getting karma.

It was hardcore untill they removed posibility to drop items on death from mobs, added augments that prevented dropping weapons even when with karma, introduced loads of instances etc etc.

stolyaR

Bring Dion Town gate pvp back!!!!

Mojottv

stolyaR wrote: »

Bring Dion Town gate pvp back!!!!

yeah boy!

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