Dealing with random player killing in an open-world PvP MMO.

For such an ambitious player-driven MMO as Ashes, the presence of random player killing (RPK) poses a challenge.
How do you allow for player agency while protecting new / weak players?

On one hand, giving players the agency to dish out justice in blood makes the world much more interactive and unpredictable, as your reputation and behavior may have dire consequences.

However, the challenge is that this level of PvP-interactivity, typically also gives rise to RPKs. Some of which intentionally grief, and others who just PvP indiscriminately.

The corruption system is already a great safety mechanism against this. However, with player-interaction at the heart of Ashes it would be great to see additional counter-RPK mechanisms that are driven by the players themselves.
Bounty hunters as planned, are a great first step.

However, bounty hunting only taps into monetary motivation. It'd be great to provide tools by which guilds and players may establish a reputation of benevolence and fairness. If Newbie Joe can report a RPK or griefer to the local guild, then it puts justice back into the hands of players. If the game tracks and incentivizes such player-driven justice, then guilds may want their territory to garner a reputation as a safe haven with just proceedings.

If Anti-PKing or peacekeeping is made worthwhile in this sense, we'll be encouraging the community to respond to griefing or bad behavior organically.

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Comments

Dolyem

What the hell did I come back to hahaha....umm... not going to contribute to the ranting and pve chatter... butttt, my easy fix to the hitting a player and keeping them low health to grief them...make it so if the griefer hit you and you die to a mob within a certain time of them attacking you, make it count as a PK assist so they gain corruption if you didn't hit them back... seems simple enough to me.

CaptnChuck

@LegendaryIII

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Bricktop

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@LegendaryIII

Couldn't have said it better myself.

You really couldn't of. You haven't been advocating for this approach that he and the rest of us will take at all. Additionally, notice how his post isn't full of teenage name calling and an over-all sense of "iamverysmart" either. Instead of crying for the game to be changed and the open world killed off to suit his needs, his solution is to make his own solutions.

CaptnChuck

Bricktop wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

@LegendaryIII

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Instead of crying for the game to be changed and the open world killed off to suit his needs, his solution is to make his own solutions.

I never asked for the game to be changed. Merely stated a problem, a way to circumvent the corruption system. Several others have already found out other ways to game it. I just gave you one such example. My point was that the corruption system was unpolished and needed finishing. Plain and simple.

You guys keep showing off how you do not understand anything I say cuz you've already labelled me as sort of a "carebear". So anything I say automatically becomes related to changing the game completely in order to avoid PvP. Maybe you should learn to read first before you type.

Mojottv

ViBunja wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

Say you're a lvl10 questing in the open world. You encounter a lvl20. He attacks you. You don't fight back as you know that you won't win. But guess what? He doesn't kill you either. He takes away half/more than half of your health and then stops fighting you. Now you can't quest anymore as your HP is so low. You'll be forced to use food, bandages etc. Once you're back to full, he does it again. How would you fix this issue with the current corruption system?

@mcstackerson

I was talking about this situation. You don't really gain any corruption here as you're not killing the player.

You can't see anyone else HP bar. So this is going to be hard to time.

You will be actually ... although not hp bar, but it will have a color coded bar, that based on colour will indicate rough percentage, like red at 30% or lower. So i hope this will be changed so you cant see any info on players hp.

DeadlyDave

If you have a top level player with all the top notch gear, weapon's there only so much PK he can do until it grabs attention either through the bounty hunting or maybe just another high levelled player near by.

Personally ill be taking the gamble on anyone who is corrupted in the knowledge that he has more to lose than me. I might have a chance of killing him and looting him, if i die what's he gaining ?
I'll tell you, 4 times more corruption and maybe a few eggs and a bit of ore.
I can't see the advantages of ganking low level player's.

Malapapas

I am not sure if AoC will have zones that are a different tier of lvl i.e. area A is lvl 1-20 zone, area B 20-35 etc... but if you look at GW2 where a player can be downscaled or upscaled to the content they are playing the first part of this issue could easily be solved (disparity in power of the players is significantly less). Then the second part is simply generating a fair risk versus reward system for making the decision to PK.

DeadlyDave

The aren't any level zones.
Downscaling, upscale your character is a complete immersion breaker. Another tick for one of the reason's i left GW2.

Malapapas

@Deadly Dave

There is also not much "immersion" in getting ganked by someone 50+ lvls higher than you fully geared, unless "immersion" means toxicity. Maybe the compromise is as follows:

I am lvl 20. I came across another player within 5 lvls of me i.e. as low as lvl 15 or high as lvl 25. I gank this player putting both of us into combat. The moment I do this that opens me up for any lvl player to attack so the lvl 50 player that was around the corner comes and kills me. But unless I initiated that combat state that lvl 50 player cannot just randomly attack me. Only those within lvls 15 to 25 can freely gank me.

Tyrantor

Malapapas wrote: »

@Deadly Dave

There is also not much "immersion" in getting ganked by someone 50+ lvls higher than you fully geared, unless "immersion" means toxicity. Maybe the compromise is as follows:

I am lvl 20. I came across another player within 5 lvls of me i.e. as low as lvl 15 or high as lvl 25. I gank this player putting both of us into combat. The moment I do this that opens me up for any lvl player to attack so the lvl 50 player that was around the corner comes and kills me. But unless I initiated that combat state that lvl 50 player cannot just randomly attack me. Only those within lvls 15 to 25 can freely gank me.

The corruption system is already going to severely punish the person who's substantially higher level "ganking" lowbies. A single newbie kill like that could result in their corruption causing worn gear loss. You want to create safety for yourself while reducing the "immersion" of the game that you are trying to save apparently.

How immersive is the game if every time you see someone substantially higher level it's of no concern? There is much more immersion in game when you're minding your own business and some high level rolls into the area and now you have to make a decision to fight, flee or talk to this person such as "Hey i'm just farming this camp we cool"? Maybe he replies back and says "Yep just running through zone" or maybe he's mute to your message and you have to decide what to do and risk death.

The whole point in immersion from the PvP side of it is that the game isn't going to protect you just because of a level difference. This concept makes sense in games that have no corruption (See EQ) but this game is designed to penalize people who go out of their way to do things like this. You may not think it's fair that you die to othese people, but they accepted the risk when they attacked you and will in most circumstances die many more times than you did.

This whole argument of "It's not fair I can die because X" is short sighted and selfish concern over random hypotheticals. You could die to the same mob 100x because the AI is too smart for you, or you're not high enough level to fight it, but you're not here complaining about that even though it's just as hypothetical as dying in PvP for the same reasons. Should the developer change it so that only mobs in the 15-25 level range can attack you, and vice versa? So you can't help a low level friend level, or you can just run through the highest level dungeons and the mobs don't attack you, because that's not fair and it ruins immersion if it's not fair? Maybe there is a quest you forgot to do that starts some legendary item later in the game after you max out but too bad now because the mob is a low level and woops you didn't know about this quest guess you'll never get that legendary item now.

Mojottv

Malapapas wrote: »

@Deadly Dave

There is also not much "immersion" in getting ganked by someone 50+ lvls higher than you fully geared, unless "immersion" means toxicity. Maybe the compromise is as follows:

I am lvl 20. I came across another player within 5 lvls of me i.e. as low as lvl 15 or high as lvl 25. I gank this player putting both of us into combat. The moment I do this that opens me up for any lvl player to attack so the lvl 50 player that was around the corner comes and kills me. But unless I initiated that combat state that lvl 50 player cannot just randomly attack me. Only those within lvls 15 to 25 can freely gank me.

That would be limitation... i hope they don't implement this. Players should be able to kill anyone, regardless, but face consequences. They have a good flagging and corruption system in place, so dont worry about ocasional ganks or kills, its part of the game, but it wont be constantly...

Tyrantor

LegendaryIII wrote: »

In your scenario: too weak to fight back, no guild, no friends, and no one coming to aid after asking on Gen chat. Leave, that's it. He's not trying to kill you. Leave. If he does kill you, leave. If he follows, Log out for 10 minutes.

LOL @CaptnChuck this is what you couldn't agree more too? Amazing, considering, it's been suggested multiple times in this thread. GG

vsD

If you get ganked and have no friends / guild or whatever you just change spot or logout, that's how it is in open world pvp games.

Kneczhevo

I foresee Intrepid having a "Corruption" kill counter. So, if you attack a player, and they die to a mob (say 30 min later), you get flagged with Corruption (eg. like tagging a mob and later someone kills it, you get reward. Suprise!). Further punishing reds. Reason I never chimed in, on this, it's default in my brain, for some stupid reason. Just makes sense to me. Perhaps that's a discussion.

AoC is a MMORPG. If people are being griefed, word gets out, and Weekend Warriors will always come to the rescue, ready to grief the griefers. Everyone looks for an excuse to grief, what better reason?

"This guy keeps griefing me!"
"Ya? Me too. Help plz!"
"You guys hear about the griefers in freshy zone?"
"Lets have some fun. What guild is he in?"

Player Policing is a very effective. These forums are evident. 😁

Dolyem

Dolyem wrote: »

What the hell did I come back to hahaha....umm... not going to contribute to the ranting and pve chatter... butttt, my easy fix to the hitting a player and keeping them low health to grief them...make it so if the griefer hit you and you die to a mob within a certain time of them attacking you, make it count as a PK assist so they gain corruption if you didn't hit them back... seems simple enough to me.

Reposting this since yall are still just arguing @CaptnChuck. Here is your solution to your original dilemma

Mojottv

Kneczhevo wrote: »

I foresee Intrepid having a "Corruption" kill counter. So, if you attack a player, and they die to a mob (say 30 min later), you get flagged with Corruption (eg. like tagging a mob and later someone kills it, you get reward. Suprise!). Further punishing reds. Reason I never chimed in, on this, it's default in my brain, for some stupid reason. Just makes sense to me. Perhaps that's a discussion.

Wow, very bad idea...getting pk for flagging on someone? and even after 30 minutes?

Sorry dude, but thats worst idea I have ever heard in this thread. Imagine someone flags on you, you call ur buddies, the go killyourself with a mob, so he gets pk, your buddies kill him, take his shit... very bad idea. You all should stop worrying, the corruption system as it was explained will work very well in preventing constant low lvl griefing, while not restricting players actions.

DeadlyDave

Malapapas wrote: »

@Deadly Dave

There is also not much "immersion" in getting ganked by someone 50+ lvls higher than you fully geared, unless "immersion" means toxicity. Maybe the compromise is as follows:

I am lvl 20. I came across another player within 5 lvls of me i.e. as low as lvl 15 or high as lvl 25. I gank this player putting both of us into combat. The moment I do this that opens me up for any lvl player to attack so the lvl 50 player that was around the corner comes and kills me. But unless I initiated that combat state that lvl 50 player cannot just randomly attack me. Only those within lvls 15 to 25 can freely gank me.

I for one will not be travelling the world alone.
I got a pen a little book, i write down all idiot's, in the hope that one day are paths will cross in a different scenario.
I just can't see the attraction to pk low level players just because you can. What benefits are you getting ? the game has so much content, why would so many players be interested in low level ganking, i think it's not a concern.
Majority of players will be hopefully enjoying other aspect's of the game.

Warth

bigepeen wrote: »

CaptnChuck wrote: »

A lot of you think that the corruption system is more than sufficient as is. It isn't. There are a ton of ways to bypass corruption. I'll state one such example and I want you @Mojottv , @Dolyem , @Bricktop , @bigepeen , to tell me how the corruption system will address it.

Say you're a lvl10 questing in the open world. You encounter a lvl20. He attacks you. You don't fight back as you know that you won't win. But guess what? He doesn't kill you either. He takes away half/more than half of your health and then stops fighting you. Now you can't quest anymore as you're HP is so low. You'll be forced to use food, bandages etc. Once you're back to full, he does it again. How would you fix this issue with the current corruption system?

Yeah I've thought about this. It is my opinion that if you are willing to commit to attacking a non-combatant, then you should be all-in and try to kill him. So I would be fine if Intrepid decided to change the trigger for becoming corrupted from killing a non-combatant to attacking a non-combatant.

However, this raises some other concerns. Especially with mining/harvesting scarce resources (which Intrepid has cited as a main reason for engaging in open world PvP). We don't want a lvl 10 alt to waltz in and start mining valuable resources while others have to fight for it. Basically, the lvl 10 will know that he will cause massive corruption penalties to the lvl 50s that are killing him to protect the scarce resources, and he will just keep on coming back every time he dies, stacking corruption on to the people defending the resource. Previously, you would've been able to perma-stun him and disrupt him from gathering the resource without getting corrupted, however, now this would make you gain corruption. A solution to this is to only put scarce resources in zones that force everyone inside to flag as combatants. I'm not sure if Intrepid is already planning to do this or not, but it would make sense. It's a win-win in my opinion because it would be interesting to have dangerous, high level areas where there are only combatants allowed.

Deadly Dave wrote: »

Malapapas wrote: »

@Deadly Dave

There is also not much "immersion" in getting ganked by someone 50+ lvls higher than you fully geared, unless "immersion" means toxicity. Maybe the compromise is as follows:

I am lvl 20. I came across another player within 5 lvls of me i.e. as low as lvl 15 or high as lvl 25. I gank this player putting both of us into combat. The moment I do this that opens me up for any lvl player to attack so the lvl 50 player that was around the corner comes and kills me. But unless I initiated that combat state that lvl 50 player cannot just randomly attack me. Only those within lvls 15 to 25 can freely gank me.

I for one will not be travelling the world alone.
I got a pen a little book, i write down all idiot's, in the hope that one day are paths will cross in a different scenario.
I just can't see the attraction to pk low level players just because you can. What benefits are you getting ? the game has so much content, why would so many players be interested in low level ganking, i think it's not a concern.
Majority of players will be hopefully enjoying other aspect's of the game.

Love your attitude. That's exactly how it should be. If the famous low level griefer keeps doing that, then he will merely progress backwards. You on the other hand will keep progressing to the point, where you can beat the guy easily. That's when payday is here. Nothing feels quite as fulfilling as smacking around the bully that has griefed you before.

So many players aren't interested in griefing low levels. Its just a select view, a very small minority. The people worrying about this are the carebears who can't stand getting killed occassionally.

CaptnChuck

@Warth

Oh look, another "carebear-namer". Apparently, saying that the corruption system needs polishing makes a lot of these "carebear-namers" come out of their hideout. We'll see who the real carebear is in game.

Warth

@CaptnChuck

i'm sorry if you felt offended by what i just said.Wait,not really.

Interestingly enough, I have been pointing out the problem you have in the past. Constantly knocking someone down to low health was a very common strategy in L2. One that was primarily coming from the fact that the karma system only barely fulfilled its intended use.

Who should the karma/corruption system primarily punish? The lowlife that griefs and ganks for fun. The more helpless the victim, the more fun this type has? Are they punished by it? Barely. Why? because they won't use their lvl 50 to kill newbies. They will use a lvl 20 alt to gank the level 10s. To avoid the level difference penalty, easy work off exp debt and supply him with strong but cheap gear pieces.

Who does it punish? The people who get into occassional struggles with other people farming/gathering the same spot. Since these are the people who only want to progress, but essentially become a loot pinata to every green in a 10 mile radius. Red is the worst thing that can happen to them, as it pretty much nullifies the progress they can make as they'll be hunted like a bunch of foxes in 18th century england.

They can't defend themselves as it will only incurr further corruption. As lo ng as the occassional PvPers (who do it for a reason) can't at least hope to have a net-gain from going corrupt, they will imaginable to get rid of the other person while not incurring corruption. Including the example you brought. Prevent that and they'll just find another way, because that's what they gotta do in this corrupt system.

Until you give them a fair chance to defend themselves and possibly survive while being corrupted, this will not change.

Don't get me wrong, a corrupted player attacking other players should feel the full punishment of the corruption system, but if a person that got corrupted from a single occassional kill can't defend hinself against 99% of the server? Then he will do everything to get what he wants without going corrupt in the first place

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