wArchAngel wrote: » How can you determine what is a bug with a dps meter? You have no idea what are the mob stats are, maybe he is ressistant to crit attacks and you will think "my crits do less damage, must be a bug", you imply that a dps meter gives you all the needed information, while in reality its mostly a glorified calculator. How can you say that a character is doing too much damage if you dont know whats his baseline? The damage will seem fine on the dps meter, it will just be higher than everyone else. Its a PVE boss, but that boss is in a pvp area, where guild do want to kill each other to have a chance to down that boss, so that statement makes very little sense. I am refering only to dps meters here btw, not log analytics with skill rotations and such.
Tarnish wrote: » wArchAngel wrote: » How can you determine what is a bug with a dps meter? You have no idea what are the mob stats are, maybe he is ressistant to crit attacks and you will think "my crits do less damage, must be a bug", you imply that a dps meter gives you all the needed information, while in reality its mostly a glorified calculator. How can you say that a character is doing too much damage if you dont know whats his baseline? The damage will seem fine on the dps meter, it will just be higher than everyone else. Its a PVE boss, but that boss is in a pvp area, where guild do want to kill each other to have a chance to down that boss, so that statement makes very little sense. I am refering only to dps meters here btw, not log analytics with skill rotations and such. it does if you know how to read one.
Genji78 wrote: » Others with boss mods, or advanced resources on Map are like cheating.
Deadly Dave wrote: » For the love of God, Please i beg you, NO DPS meters. The introduction to ego metres = Arguments There's probably alot of players out there who have never played a MMO before and after the DPS meters
Tragnar wrote: » And if you honestly think that the absence of meters will stop Arguments, then you are gravely mistaken.
maouw wrote: » I'm in favour of Steven's approach. DPS meters accelerate our ability to optimize - and that kills fun and imagination.
Mojottv wrote: » maouw wrote: » I'm in favour of Steven's approach. DPS meters accelerate our ability to optimize - and that kills fun and imagination. +1 Dont understand people, who want to know everything in advance, before even trying to play. It's basically watching movie ending, then watching the movie, or not watching the movie, because you didn't like the ending...
Tragnar wrote: » Deadly Dave wrote: » For the love of God, Please i beg you, NO DPS meters. The introduction to ego metres = Arguments There's probably alot of players out there who have never played a MMO before and after the DPS meters You sound like you want ban air travel, because terrorists did 9/11. And if you honestly think that the absence of meters will stop Arguments, then you are gravely mistaken
Tragnar wrote: » maouw wrote: » I'm in favour of Steven's approach. DPS meters accelerate our ability to optimize - and that kills fun and imagination. I completely disagree. Meters allow optimization, without it you have guesswork. Spreadsheeting precisely is possible without meters, but you still do the act of "measuring" again. This just slows down the evolution of meta and makes tailoring builds toward the node you are in just more tiresome action that is usually delegated to few (or even one) person in a guild. Mojottv wrote: » maouw wrote: » I'm in favour of Steven's approach. DPS meters accelerate our ability to optimize - and that kills fun and imagination. +1 Dont understand people, who want to know everything in advance, before even trying to play. It's basically watching movie ending, then watching the movie, or not watching the movie, because you didn't like the ending... Movie analogy doesn't really work, because it is passive entertainment and not an active one, but still I understand what you mean. However I do not consider "creating build" as mmo ending, it is - or should be everchanging evolution and after all it is the lense that you view the game through. You should not try to forbid players from cleaning and perfecting their lenses, because by proxy if you diminish the accessible knowledge that players use to make informed choices you diminish their enjoyment from the game. Those who do not care about their performance are not affected in any way. If you want to draw the toxicity card then you are just showing naivety in this topic, because toxic people are going to use any other means to be toxic and removing tools, because they can be used in toxic way is terrible way to design the game - just look at prime example - WoW - they tried very hard to diminish toxic interactions that led to erasing player to player interactions.
Mojottv wrote: » well i think everyone cares about their performance, i just dont think that a number should determine their performance. I think experimenting on builds and seeing how they work in different scenarios is part of the game, not experimenting and seeing how numbers change.
Dont really understand your take on toxicity, seems like you disagree, then agree... you will have toxicity when players interact, especially when they influence each others game experience. just like you have it in real world.
Tragnar wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » well i think everyone cares about their performance, i just dont think that a number should determine their performance. I think experimenting on builds and seeing how they work in different scenarios is part of the game, not experimenting and seeing how numbers change. Numbers always determine their performance, with meters you can just read the number. This is cruel reality of how the world works - even the one that will be simulated in Ashes. Different builds will give various amount of success for the thing you want to do. Not having meters is actually actively discouraging from experimenting, because you are not sure if your new build is actually slightly better than the last one and so you will be a lot hesitant to use build that is not in the public meta. If you don't play the meta build then average guilds that will try to achieve something will tell you to respec or to look for another guild. And the top end will just use unofficial meters to make sure they are doing the best that they can. Dont really understand your take on toxicity, seems like you disagree, then agree... you will have toxicity when players interact, especially when they influence each others game experience. just like you have it in real world. I don't understand what you don't understand on it. Removing meters does not remove any toxicity, because toxicity is not dependent on meters. You can use meters to have arguments about facts and you can use facts to promote your toxicity, but facts are not inherently toxic. Only snowflakes are trying to protect themselves from criticism when they are expected by their group to do their best.
Tragnar wrote: » This is where my conclusion totally differs. Without meters people will stick only to the most popular meta build and any effort for tuning is going to be dead everywhere except the top-end that will use unofficial meters. People who cant think to improve their character will have without meters even less incentive to do something new. They will either copy meta build or use any build they felt like clicking the first time they opened their customization tab. It all depends if things are going to be hard to kill in group/raid environment. If things are going to die either way then most people will not care if they can kill it faster which completely kills any inovation and you will see the same builds from beta to the 5th year anniversary.
Mojottv wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » This is where my conclusion totally differs. Without meters people will stick only to the most popular meta build and any effort for tuning is going to be dead everywhere except the top-end that will use unofficial meters. People who cant think to improve their character will have without meters even less incentive to do something new. They will either copy meta build or use any build they felt like clicking the first time they opened their customization tab. It all depends if things are going to be hard to kill in group/raid environment. If things are going to die either way then most people will not care if they can kill it faster which completely kills any inovation and you will see the same builds from beta to the 5th year anniversary. Yes, you're right. Most people are lazy or just not smart enough (not saying I am neither of these), they won't spend time trying to innovate, try better build etc etc. yes, it will be even harder without dps meters. And thats my exact point, if you cant be bothered to think and use any random build of google, that's your problem and you shouldn't have as good build as someone who invested time experimenting, so most people will have inferior builds and that's ok. With Youtube and google, you don't need to lower the bar even more...
QueenofPixels wrote: » Hate dPS meters. They are always used to exclude and not even intelligently. Back in my WOW days we had this one guy who always topped the damage meters but he was almost never on the right target at the right time. Refused to do any support even when that would have been more advantageous. DPS meters and gears score will ruin your game in the long term.
Caeryl wrote: » QueenofPixels wrote: » Hate dPS meters. They are always used to exclude and not even intelligently. Back in my WOW days we had this one guy who always topped the damage meters but he was almost never on the right target at the right time. Refused to do any support even when that would have been more advantageous. DPS meters and gears score will ruin your game in the long term. And without a combat tracker you will still have exactly this same sort of player. The presence of a combat tracker has literally no impact on someone being a good or bad team player.
QueenofPixels wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » QueenofPixels wrote: » Hate dPS meters. They are always used to exclude and not even intelligently. Back in my WOW days we had this one guy who always topped the damage meters but he was almost never on the right target at the right time. Refused to do any support even when that would have been more advantageous. DPS meters and gears score will ruin your game in the long term. And without a combat tracker you will still have exactly this same sort of player. The presence of a combat tracker has literally no impact on someone being a good or bad team player. My point was, though I admit it was poorly made, that DPS meters don't guarantee a better quality of play, in which case, the downsides of meters, in my opinion, vastly outweigh the benefits.
Caeryl wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » This is where my conclusion totally differs. Without meters people will stick only to the most popular meta build and any effort for tuning is going to be dead everywhere except the top-end that will use unofficial meters. People who cant think to improve their character will have without meters even less incentive to do something new. They will either copy meta build or use any build they felt like clicking the first time they opened their customization tab. It all depends if things are going to be hard to kill in group/raid environment. If things are going to die either way then most people will not care if they can kill it faster which completely kills any inovation and you will see the same builds from beta to the 5th year anniversary. Yes, you're right. Most people are lazy or just not smart enough (not saying I am neither of these), they won't spend time trying to innovate, try better build etc etc. yes, it will be even harder without dps meters. And thats my exact point, if you cant be bothered to think and use any random build of google, that's your problem and you shouldn't have as good build as someone who invested time experimenting, so most people will have inferior builds and that's ok. With Youtube and google, you don't need to lower the bar even more... What you don’t seem to be getting here, is that removing a player’s access to straightforward combat feedback makes developing builds damn near impossible to do with any significant efficiency. It actively discourages experimentation when all of it becomes guesswork that takes ten times as long as parsing through a combat tracker’s info. By denying players access to objective information that would let them experiment rapidly and actually have a chance to get quick feedback about the direction their build idea is going, then you haven’t made it more “difficult”, just more frustrating, more time consuming, and less precise. It hurts literally everyone when the meta cannot be quickly and easily challenged via objective, precise information that a combat tracker provides.
Mojottv wrote: » Caeryl wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » This is where my conclusion totally differs. Without meters people will stick only to the most popular meta build and any effort for tuning is going to be dead everywhere except the top-end that will use unofficial meters. People who cant think to improve their character will have without meters even less incentive to do something new. They will either copy meta build or use any build they felt like clicking the first time they opened their customization tab. It all depends if things are going to be hard to kill in group/raid environment. If things are going to die either way then most people will not care if they can kill it faster which completely kills any inovation and you will see the same builds from beta to the 5th year anniversary. Yes, you're right. Most people are lazy or just not smart enough (not saying I am neither of these), they won't spend time trying to innovate, try better build etc etc. yes, it will be even harder without dps meters. And thats my exact point, if you cant be bothered to think and use any random build of google, that's your problem and you shouldn't have as good build as someone who invested time experimenting, so most people will have inferior builds and that's ok. With Youtube and google, you don't need to lower the bar even more... What you don’t seem to be getting here, is that removing a player’s access to straightforward combat feedback makes developing builds damn near impossible to do with any significant efficiency. It actively discourages experimentation when all of it becomes guesswork that takes ten times as long as parsing through a combat tracker’s info. By denying players access to objective information that would let them experiment rapidly and actually have a chance to get quick feedback about the direction their build idea is going, then you haven’t made it more “difficult”, just more frustrating, more time consuming, and less precise. It hurts literally everyone when the meta cannot be quickly and easily challenged via objective, precise information that a combat tracker provides. How about doing it old fashioned way? Changing skills and trying them out on the mob or on other people? Whats so hard? I get it that it makes it a lot easier when you get feedback straight away after changing things around. Also revealing everyones performance to everyone else is stupid idea in open world pvp game. People who know that ur score is lower will bully you out of every spot you try to grind or quest. If it had to be done, the best thing they could do one where only yourself could see the score. But nothing in my opinion is still better. #MGHA Make games hard again!
Mojottv wrote: » How about doing it old fashioned way? Changing skills and trying them out on the mob or on other people?
