DPS Meter Megathread

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Tragnar

The reason why many abusive guild leaders have power is simple - it is goddam hard to gather players into your guild and build up the guild from ground up. Many players do not want to invest their time into creating such a guild. And those that do try to create a guild quickly realise that it is far too easy to invite literal chipmunks that play worse than NPCs that you are supposed to kill easily.

Why are many pug leaders reserving loot? Because they have put time into organising it, into getting people together and as such they reserve the right to take bigger cut.

The notion for the game to be all inviting and inclusive is in direct contradiction to risk/reward philosophy.

Noaani

@Chunks

Chunks wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

So, as a TL;DR, the basic questions left are;
1, What makes you think not haivng a combat tracker would stop people wanting max damage.
2, Why do you think the meta will be initially shaped by anything other than the requirements of PvE content, followed by counters to the builds that are common in PvE content.
3, Even if this were all true, how would a combat tracker that can only be used within a small number of guilds (and only on members of those guilds) really be considered to be that bad to people outside of those guilds?

The first two questions have already been addressed by Neuroguy and I, repeatedly.

And youre back to asking about combat trackers in the third question in a damage meter thread.

We discussed it with you in the few previous pages. Enjoy, my friend!

To your first point - can you quote the posts in which you go over *specifically* why you think people will stop wanting to do the most damage they are able to do if combat trackers do not exist. This is a stance I have never heard anyone talk about ever, in regards to any game of any genre, let alone in regard to this game, or even in this thread. If I had read it, I would find the very notion of that stance so intriguing that I wouldn't be able to help myself asking questions about it.

As such, I have to assume I have simply missed where you discussed *specifically* saying you think that people won't care about doing as much damage as they can in a game without a combat tracker, and *why* you think that will be the case.

To your second point - combat tracker is simply a.more appropriate term for "DPS meter". Since any piece of software that functions as a DPS meter can also track literally anything at all that you tell it to, calling it a DPS meter is inaccurate and misleading - the fact that so many people from WoW only know of combat trackers as DPS meters is why so many people assume all they can do is measure DPS.

All a combat tracker does is read a set of data, look for specific text (such as the word "damage"), works out from that line of text the person that made the attack, that was attacked, the type of attack used and the amount of damage done. It then adds that data to what is essentially a spreadsheet.

Alter the initial search to the word "heals" and you completely change what is being looked for, and what is being calculated.

Most combat trackers do all of this, it's just that most people do not realise it. People run them with the default setting - which is obviously DPS, and don't even look to see what else they can do.

So, combat trackers are the proper term for what you call DPS meters, but combat assistants are things like WoWs DBM. I say "like" DBM, but I honestly don't think there are any other combat assistants - I know there are no other games with them.

Now, I can fully understand if you are getting confused between combat tracker and combat assistant, especially of these terms are new to you. That's all good. Just be aware, I am as against a combat assistant as much as anyone you will ever meet in your life - but I am for combat trackers to that exact same degree.

neuroguy

Abominatus wrote: »

In software development we have a concept called "Security by Obfuscation" in which the developer tries to secure the system by hiding where data is kept and not documenting it rather than by encrypting or otherwise preventing access to it. This is rightly considered the weakest form of security because it is acknowledged that a dedicated attacker will expend the effort required to find the data they need regardless of your efforts to obscure it.

That principle is applicable here. Trying to hide performance data by not having an explicit meter for it is destined to be futile. The people who want that data will have it. Unless steps are taken to make the damage data entirely inaccessible to the players, logs will be used to analyse player performance. If needed, there will be enterprising developers willing to screen-scrape data to get what they want. I'm passing no judgement on that activity, merely stating that in a community as focused and dedicated as an MMO community can be, this will happen.

So therefore assuming that there is any means to gather damage data, theorycrafters will discover min-max builds, and some guild leaders will use that information to assess the performance of their members and of prospective candidates. Evaluating members this way is short-sighted and foolish, but short-sighted and foolish is a good description for a significant percentage of the human race.

Alternatively, you can completely foreclose the ability of players to gather information about their performance. No logs at all. Maybe not even floating combat text. That makes it very hard to optimize for your own benefit, and means that ultimately PvE boss tuning can't really take place because the developers are working from compete information while the players are groping in the dark. The boss killed us.. why? *shrug* What can we do to improve our performance on the next pull? *shrug*. Such an environment might be fun for some portion of the playerbase, but is more likely to lead to either frustration with the difficulty of the encounters or alternatively disinterest because the encounters are insufficiently challenging to the most informed.

Damage meters can be abused. Many players in fact use them inappropriately. But in my opinion a high-information environment is almost always superior to a low-information one. If the level of information available exposes shortcomings in the game itself in the form of imbalance, then that's not a problem with providing the information, that's a problem with the underlying systems that need to be addressed.

Ultimately if the argument against a damage meter is that toxic and/or stupid people will abuse it then the solution is to simply not associate with those people. A good guild leader will stamp hard on the abusers in their ranks and those people will either educate themselves or leave, and a bad guild leader... well, perhaps you should consider finding another guild?

Well written, I can agree with most of the things on this post but the conclusions I draw are a bit different with a slight shift in perspective. If you stop thinking about the "goal" of not having a combat tracker in the game as "keeping the information from people" and start thinking about it as a matter of ease of access/barrier to entry it makes a lot more sense. The toxic behaviors that occur around combat trackers are only possible with low barrier to entry versions of it. Using a single number like a gear score or DPS to summarize a player's skill/ability/performance is lazy but easy. In fact, it is so easy people will use it as a heuristic even if they know it's bad and lazy. I made pugs in WoW where at some points I was like fuck it, I don't want to have to decide between a few people to invite for the last slot, just throw me a number. Not having this information readily available in game, and not being officially sanctioned by Intrepid will make it unreasonable to request it. If I ask for a dps number in such an environment most people would respond not be able to provide me that information, which then in turn forces me to make hard decisions but based on more informed metrics (or still be lazy and roll a dice but in that case the loser of the dice roll doesn't potentially feel personally criticized or w.e because of their character build choices etc).

Most arguments for the combat tracker are provided for raid guilds and optimization/performance arguments (there are meta arguments but frankly I find those to be too fortune-telly and subjective opinion to argue against... AoC will be a very different game with a lot of new mechanics/combinations of mechanics, I think it's premature to predict how metas form). And I think in that respect people need to remember one critical thing: hardcore players who are in raiding guilds that need optimization etc are the minority. Perhaps the same minority that argue on forums months to years before game release.

The main point you make that I just disagree with is the shrugging of why you died. You can always figure out how/why you died with a little bit of effort. Usually it's obvious like you stood in the fire or near the tail of the dragon. Other times it's correlated to the buff you've never seen before popping up on that boss... hmm I wonder what it does! Again, combat trackers are a luxury and the game, raids/dungeons, and bosses will all still be doable without it. I literally can't think of a single boss encounter I've ever done that would not be possible without a combat tracker and I have a lot more fun figuring it out than being told by some tracker. If you think the game may be more frustrating/harder for many without it, yeah that's kind of a design decision. The game is harder without mass teleportation and with a % loss of raw materials on death too, but again, it's a design decision. And quite frankly those who want to make it easier through the use a tracker chasing that world first or w.e are the super super minority and can do w.e they want (which as you point you will likely include making a 3rd party combat tracker) and I say cool w.e to that since it doesn't fuck with the social structure of the game much. I think once you accept how much of the player base is the optimization crazy, first world kill chasing sort of player then you should instead ask those people to find like-minded folks to play with instead of telling the vast majority of players to find like minded people when you provide an easy to use tool to badly misrepresent someone's skill/performance/ability that will inevitably be widely adopted because it is easy and time saving, even if people know it's bad, plus everyone else is doing it so why should I feel bad for doing it too? The point here being that you don't need to be toxic or stupid to end up using a super easy to use system when it is provided, once you give in once to use the easy heuristic, it becomes more and more normal for you and everyone else to use it too (I know tons of cool people who resort to achievements and gear score for pugs because they just don't want to be bothered, I've been guilty of it too and I'm arguing against it).

Noaani

@neuroguy

neuroguy wrote: »

I made pugs in WoW where at some points I was like fuck it, I don't want to have to decide between a few people to invite for the last slot, just throw me a number. Not having this information readily available in game, and not being officially sanctioned by Intrepid will make it unreasonable to request it.

Don't take this the wrong way, but this behavior right here would see me never group with you, because you are quite clearly and obviously the cause of the toxicity in this situation.

You blame it on the tracker, but it is you.

That is actually probably why you are so against combat trackers - you think they are to blame for the toxicity you cause. I've been playing MMO's for 20 years and literally never seen anyone ask for a DPS number before allowing another player to join a group. If I saw that happen, I would blacklist that player immediately and without question, and that is such a rediculous notion.

Maybe this is the WoW mentality in you, but that kind of thing literally doesn't happen in other games.

To someone that would ask that question though, in Ashes, you will still make that same decision as to who to leave out, but rather than asking for a DPS number, you will ask what class combination they are playing.

You will then make that decision based on a subjective opinion of each class available to you - which is no less toxic a metric to make that decision on.

This is what I have been saying for a year - in regards to toxicity, it is the people, not the tool. Without the tool there will always be another easy/lazy way to make the decision, and lazy/toxic people will always take it.

In this regard, a combat tracker existing or not existing will have no impact on the amount of toxicity in the game.

neuroguy wrote: »

The main point you make that I just disagree with is the shrugging of why you died. You can always figure out how/why you died with a little bit of effort. Usually it's obvious like you stood in the fire or near the tail of the dragon. Other times it's correlated to the buff you've never seen before popping up on that boss... hmm I wonder what it does!

All of this is only true if you know the mechanics of the encounter.

A combat tracker is used to understand the mechanics of the encounter.

Again, combat trackers are a luxury and the game, raids/dungeons, and bosses will all still be doable without it. I literally can't think of a single boss encounter I've ever done that would not be possible without a combat tracker and I have a lot more fun figuring it out than being told by some tracker.

I can think of a few dozen.

Games with combat tracker use have encounters designed to be taken on with them. There are aspects to them that are simply not possible without them - such as maintaining raidwide DPS to within a very specific and narrow range - too high or too low and it wipes the raid.

Now, if you were just saying DPS meters (like some people in this thread mistakenly think they are), then I would agree with you. I actually consider a tool that only measures DPS to be completely useless outside of specific cases like encounters with the above mechanic.

A combat tracker though? Indespensible in competitive top end PvE play.

neuroguy

@Noaani
I asked for achievements/gear score not DPS numbers, and no offense but I don't care what you think of me

. It was an example of a heuristic being used.

I've already addressed the "don't blame the tool" argument in my last post, you can reply to that one if you'd like, it should address most of your points... I even tagged you in it I believe.

In terms of a few dozen bosses that are literally impossible without a combat tracker, well I'm inclined to think that is more a reflection of your personal skill level but if that is in fact true that's bad game design that I'd definitely want to avoid in AoC therefore even more reason to leave out combat trackers.
Edit: such a silly argument for you to make btw, if you preach combat trackers being a guild specific perk then how would designing bosses around its use be viable? It's forcing every guild to use it if they want to do certain content removing player agency.

Noaani wrote: »

A combat tracker though? Indespensible in competitive top end PvE play.

No I meant combat trackers. And exactly. In competitive top end PvE aka a super super minority of the population. You should find like minded players and make a 3rd party combat tracker if it's that crucial, leave the rest of the community free of the heuristic please.

Noaani

neuroguy wrote: »

I asked for achievements/gear score not DPS numbers

My mistake, but outside of Archeage I have still never seen that happen - and Archeage is a game I consider to have a similar level of toxicity to it as WoW.

Gear score is stupidly easy to manipulate (equip the item with the highest score, even if it isn't overly suited to you), and achievements are as much about the company a player keeps as they are about that player themself. I'd rather help someone get a new achievement than ask them what they have.

No I meant combat trackers. And exactly. In competitive top end PvE aka a super super minority of the population. You should find like minded players and make a 3rd party combat tracker if it's that crucial, leave the rest of the community free of the heuristic please.

I am perfectly happy leaving "the rest of the community free of the heuristic". In fact, that is what I am here arguing for.

That is exactly why I am suggesting putting a combat tracker in to teh game, in a way where only top end players would use it. If this happens, everyone outside of those few guilds would not even need to think about combat trackers - indeed they wouldn't even to be aware that they exist in the game.

If we make one as a third party option - which we will if there isn't one built in - it will be freely available to anyone that wants it. If it is freely available to all, then this game will have the exact same situation as every other MMO's in regards to combat trackers.

This seems to be what you don't want - and is what I am trying to argue to prevent from happening.

I mean, you see perfectly well that top end players will have a combat tracker - and I have to assume you are aware that it is the top end of every game that introduces combat trackers to every game, which then trickles down to the rest of the population.

How is it that you think this will lead to the situation you are after?

I did miss this post (my notifications tray gets quite full sometimes)

neuroguy wrote: »

Ok so I really freaking hate this stupid "don't blame the tool" argument. You don't provide rocket launchers to people if you don't want to risk them using it.

I agree, if you give rocket launchers to the general public, you should expect the worst.

On the other hand, if you only allow trained people to have rocket launchers, people that are in a situation where their use may be worthwhile, then yeah, that should be all good. Those people with rocket launchers can then use those rocket launchers resposibly to keep the people without them safe.

However, this isn't a super great analogy for combat trackers, because all combat trackers do is provide information. A better example of this would be the electoral roll. It is information that is freely available to all, even though it is perfectly possible for people to misuse it.

neuroguy

Noaani wrote: »

That is exactly why I am suggesting putting a combat tracker in to teh game, in a way where only top end players would use it. If this happens, everyone outside of those few guilds would not even need to think about combat trackers - indeed they wouldn't even to be aware that they exist in the game.

If we make one as a third party option - which we will if there isn't one built in - it will be freely available to anyone that wants it. If it is freely available to all, then this game will have the exact same situation as every other MMO's in regards to combat trackers.

This seems to be what you don't want - and is what I am trying to argue to prevent from happening.

I mean, you see perfectly well that top end players will have a combat tracker - and I have to assume you are aware that it is the top end of every game that introduces combat trackers to every game, which then trickles down to the rest of the population.

How is it that you think this will lead to the situation you are after?

But that is not at all how it will pan out. As you've explicitly mentioned, the use of combat trackers makes content easier and more efficient. So it is no longer a tool for top end guilds, it is an illusory "option" that is almost mandatory to compete at any level because everyone benefits from it. Again, when you provide people an easy option, it becomes a very deliberate choice not to take it and eventually, you will want to take that efficient way out and then it becomes normal, you've opened pandoras box. This is why flying mounts or group finders are hard to walk back. The convenience is now normalized and there will be outrage upon removing it.

A third party option that is officially not allowed (or is not sanctioned at least) will see limited use. I don't have a problem with people using it, again I think it just makes the game easier which I'm not about, but if you want to sure w.e. The issue is the misuse which is the social application of the tool. So a third party combat tracker cannot be openly talked about or advertised, keeping it out of the social part of the game for those not in the top end playerbase.

Also you are fooling yourself if you think that if Interpid puts out a limited or throttled version of a combat tracker then that means suddenly nobody will make a third party one which accomplishes what they want. For example if Intrepid puts one out that only displays party DPS instead of individual, they would go make one that shows individual DPS. The desire to make it is for specific types of information, if that information is not provided, they will make it.

If the use of a third party app is ultimately not allowed or unsanctioned, in a game with no addons, many players will not put in the effort to go seek it out and figure out how to operate it. They will just make do. If someone asked me to use a third party app and paste some picture in discord for an invite, I'm not gonna do it (most people won't and asking for it will be met with general refusal and it won't be picked up by the general population as a normal behavior) but if it's just a click of a button on an already integrated tool, then I mean it's not that big a deal. So no, I don't think it will trickle down even if it exists as a third party app.

Edit: this conversation is taking up too much of my time so I'm gonna bow out. I think ultimately it comes down to providing players with a tool that makes the game easier and more efficient by quantifying in numbers performance in its various forms VS forcing players to make do without it and figure out how to optimize their performance in their own ways. I'm leaving out all the social aspects since we've discussed that to death. But if you want a tool to make the game easier for you because your experience is in other games it was "necessary" to compete then we just disagree. Metas will be ok, so will bug reports, ultimately your argument boils down to making content easier in my eyes.

Noaani

neuroguy wrote: »

But that is not at all how it will pan out. As you've explicitly mentioned, the use of combat trackers makes content easier and more efficient.

In regards to top end content that a few top end guilds will be going after, yes.

General group content or low end raid content? Nope.

I'm on record in this thrad as say that I expect there to only ever be one or two encounters at a time where combat trackers will be required, and I stand by that.

A third party option that is officially not allowed (or is not sanctioned at least) will see limited use. I don't have a problem with people using it, again I think it just makes the game easier which I'm not about, but if you want to sure w.e. The issue is the misuse which is the social application of the tool. So a third party combat tracker cannot be openly talked about or advertised, keeping it out of the social part of the game for those not in the top end playerbase.

EQ2, GW2, FFXIV and Rift (as well as probably many others, but these four I am 100% sure on) all started out either not officially allowing combat trackers or actually officially not allowing them.

All four games have fairly high use of them now.

GW2, specifically, were surprised how many people were using combat trackers when they allowed them to be used. They knew there was some amount of usage among the population, but couldn't track it at all. Turned out, it was a little over 25% of all players were using them while they were a bannable offense.

While not WoW high, that is a very high rate of use for a game where they were actually against the rules.

Also you are fooling yourself if you think that if Interpid puts out a limited or throttled version of a combat tracker then that means suddenly nobody will make a third party one which accomplishes what they want.

The two groups I am currently following now that are working on combat trackers for Ashes would stop immediately.

It will be a non-trivial amount of wotk to get the information out of the game. It is an amount of work people are willing to do if the other option is no tracker, but if Intrepid provide a combat tracker that offers basic functionality (which is what my suggestion is allowing - literally the lowest level of functionality acceptable), then they would have no reason to carry on.

Others absolutely may come along in the future and have a go at it, but they will still have that same hurdle of getting the information. I'm absolutely not saying this isn't a possibility.

What I am saying is that it is the only real option to not have a combat tracker that is free to all by release - and if someone does release a third party one eventually, the game will at that point be in the same position it would be on day one if one is not built in to the game client.

This argument is almost like saying "no point even trying to put that fire out, it may well rain tomorrow".

I mean, we are very much talking about a thing that absolutely is going to happen, so there is no harm at all in attempting to make it happen in the best way possible. In fact, it would be irresponsible to not attempt to make it happen in the best way possible.

Hurf Derfman

The only reasonable conclusion I've come to reading this thread is that,

A guild named: DPS MEGATHREAD needs to exist. They would be a PVP guild that war dec's other guilds as they try to kill internet dragons, and only seige nodes that host dungeons. Everybody would love these guys.

All kidding aside DPS meters should absolutely be in the game but only function when you're purple flagged.

Type /PVP to enable meters.

Noaani

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

All kidding aside DPS meters should absolutely be in the game but only function when you're purple flagged.

Type /PVP to enable meters.

A few times in this thread I have asked people for suggestions of things guild types that are not too end game PvE focused would want as an option instead of a combat tracker as per the suggestion that has been made - I don't consider myself qualified to answer that question on behalf of guild types I do not generally belong to.

However, a combat tracker that only functions while a combatant could well be a viable PvP option

Tarnish

wArchAngel wrote: »

How can you determine what is a bug with a dps meter? You have no idea what are the mob stats are, maybe he is ressistant to crit attacks and you will think "my crits do less damage, must be a bug", you imply that a dps meter gives you all the needed information, while in reality its mostly a glorified calculator. How can you say that a character is doing too much damage if you dont know whats his baseline? The damage will seem fine on the dps meter, it will just be higher than everyone else.

Its a PVE boss, but that boss is in a pvp area, where guild do want to kill each other to have a chance to down that boss, so that statement makes very little sense.

I am refering only to dps meters here btw, not log analytics with skill rotations and such.

it does if you know how to read one.

Chronocross

I would love if it had an DPS meter, even if it is only for the person itself.
At least this way it would be possible to test better builds

Noaani

Tarnish wrote: »

wArchAngel wrote: »

How can you determine what is a bug with a dps meter? You have no idea what are the mob stats are, maybe he is ressistant to crit attacks and you will think "my crits do less damage, must be a bug", you imply that a dps meter gives you all the needed information, while in reality its mostly a glorified calculator. How can you say that a character is doing too much damage if you dont know whats his baseline? The damage will seem fine on the dps meter, it will just be higher than everyone else.

Its a PVE boss, but that boss is in a pvp area, where guild do want to kill each other to have a chance to down that boss, so that statement makes very little sense.

I am refering only to dps meters here btw, not log analytics with skill rotations and such.

it does if you know how to read one.

Indeed.

I'm unsure how people that don't know how to use a combat tracker can have an actual opinion on them that is deeply held enough to debate it.

I understand such people saying something along the lines of "I generally like/dislike the idea of combat trackers, but as I don't really understand them, I don't feel I have any more to add other than that specific opinion", but anything more than that seems to me to be odd for something they have no real understanding of.

Not only can a combat tracker be used to see if there is a bug with the damage an ability is doing to a mob, but that same combat tracker can be used to determine exactly what resists/stats in general the mob in question has. This takes some real time to work out stats that have a complex relationship to each other - and is only necessary if you are actually trying to find a specific bug - but it absolutely is possible to do.

Genji78

At one point of difficulty in pve, you need a dps meter, to get the most of your character.

Seeing numbers from others help me see if there is an issue in my gameplay and how i could fix this, in game, from expérience.

If you are healer and have to choose between 2 very different dps, this can make a wipe or a win.

This is the most essential addon.
Look at the download numbers.

Others with boss mods, or advanced resources on Map are like cheating.

Noaani

Genji78 wrote: »

Others with boss mods, or advanced resources on Map are like cheating.

I completely agree.

Anything that is giving you information on something that hasn't already happened is not good for teh game.

A combat tracker only breaks down information on things that have already happened.

silion

Dps meter can be toxic and can be useful. Idk why ppl argue about that. There is simply solution.
If u are inside party u can join to "dps mater" or dont. If u join solo then simply showing only urs stats/ if 2 friends join and you then dps meter show only urs 3 dps/other stats.

Vashe

I am all for some sort of DPS tracker. I want a way to be able to improve my performance. I realize there are individuals that don't care, and in some cases don't want personal accountability. I see no issue with those who want a tracker having one, and those who don't not using it.

Paradoxically

The extrapolation of data is necessary for testing builds I highly recommend having a method to see how much damage you did and how well you stack up to others. the form doesn't matter its just a very useful tool.

DeadlyDave

For the love of God, Please i beg you, NO DPS meters.

The introduction to ego metres = Arguments

There's probably alot of players out there who have never played a MMO before and after the DPS meters

Tragnar

Deadly Dave wrote: »

For the love of God, Please i beg you, NO DPS meters.

The introduction to ego metres = Arguments

There's probably alot of players out there who have never played a MMO before and after the DPS meters

You sound like you want ban air travel, because terrorists did 9/11. If you want to stop ego maniacs, then the meters should be built in the game with restrictions. If it is not then it will be available to those ego maniacs that thrust their dps placement in your faces with a simple "download" button.

I understand that this could be common in lower tier guilds and pickup raids, but that should be a call for regulation not prosecution.

And if you honestly think that the absence of meters will stop Arguments, then you are gravely mistaken. Arguments happen when you can't kill the boss and without meters it often changes to pointing fingers and that kills many loosely formed guilds.

Child Item