Noaani wrote: » Bricktop wrote: » Yes I understand that you feel as if your opinion is fact. No, facts are facts, and my opinion is an opinion. It is a fact that no MMO has ever put an encounter in a PvP setting that provides any challenge if there is no PvP present. This isn't an opinion, this is a fact. A new one for you - it is conjecture that this is simply not possible, based on all available evidence. It is an opinion that I want there to be some encounters that are a challenge based on PvP, and also some others that are a challenge based on PvE. Back to facts - it is a fact that these two challenge types are vastly different to each other, and it is also a fact that no singular piece of content in MMO history has provided both of these challenges to players at the same time. Essentially, you are saying that you only want players to have access to one of these forms of challenge. That is your entire argument - regardless of how you attempt to dress it up. I am saying I want people to have both.
Bricktop wrote: » Yes I understand that you feel as if your opinion is fact.
Bricktop wrote: » Why don't we wait and see what the open world content looks like before we start calling for more instancing than 20%.
Noaani wrote: » Bricktop wrote: » Why don't we wait and see what the open world content looks like before we start calling for more instancing than 20%. I'm not asking for more than 20%, 20% is actually higher than I would want it to be. I am simply saying how I would like a portion of that 20% to be used. The problem with waiting is that actual good content in an MMO takes many, many months to make. If the plan is to launch the game, wait for people to get to the level cap and then see how the content is holding up, we would be talking 18 months or more after launch before such content actually makes it to the game. It makes far more sense to launch the game with good amounts of both types of content, and then if it turns out that the purely open world content is more enjoyed, make more of it.
Mojottv wrote: » Ant queen is one example of hard boss in pvp setting.
And yeh, bots and cash shop is for people to catch up ? what a load of dog shit ....bots are for people who want to cheat their way to the top, cash shop for people who want to buy their way to the top.
Bricktop wrote: » I would be shocked if that instanced content offered better gear over open world content.
Noaani wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Ant queen is one example of hard boss in pvp setting. From Lineage 2? That is not a hard encounter. Mechanically speaking, it is about as hard as a mid range PvE encounter - of single group content. It is a great encounter when PvP is involved, but it is not a hard encounter at all without PvP. If that encounter - with the exact same mechanics - were in a raid instance, it would be considered base population and wouldn't even warrant having a unique name, let alone a loot table. It would be what a skilled raid take on while they are all talking shit to each other - not what they stop to focus on. It is so mechanically unsophisticated that people would happily take a bio break without even letting the raid leader know - and the raid leader wouoldn't even care. I mean, without PvP the encounter took less than 4 minutes. It is even more of a joke than the red dragon from Archeage which is the encounter I always point to when explaining the difference between encounters designed as PvE encounters, and encounters designed as PvP McGuffins. Now, I don't know you as a poster well enough to really know (nor do I overly care to), but it is possible that you were being sarcastic with this. If so, cool, great joke. If not, all I can say is that you have absolutely no idea at all what PvE content is about. And yeh, bots and cash shop is for people to catch up ? what a load of dog shit ....bots are for people who want to cheat their way to the top, cash shop for people who want to buy their way to the top. The only reason people needed bots to get to the top is because the game didn't give them any other path to get there. This is the major flaw in all PvP games, one group gets the upper hand, and as long as that group stays together, they will always have that upper hand. The more PvP there is, and the higher the consequences there are for losing in PvP, the bigger that upper hand they have will be. The cash shop was added to L2 based on players asking for it. When you are at the point where you can't do anything, you either find a way to game the system, or you leave the game. So sure, you are absolutely right that bots were there for people to cheat their way to the top, but they were only there and only so rampant because there was no other way for these people to get to the top legitimately. As to the cash shop, people were sick of always being on the bottom, and so basically begged NCSoft to allow them with a way to make up lost ground. NCSoft thought that adding it may cut back on some of the bots in the game, but I think most of us now know that wouldn't happen. Basically, people looked at the cash shop as a legitimate way to make up for that upper hand that others had over them, and bots as the illegitimate way to make up for it. So, I mean, you aren't wrong. People used the cash shop and bots to try and get to the top - but you are missing the point that they only resorted to those things because the game offered them no other path to get there.
Mojottv wrote: » Ok, so ant queen was lvl 40 raid. Yes its easy when you have 1 lvl 40 party hitting the raid and then lvl 75 party dealing with minions, yes it could be considered easy in that way, also it has become easy once everyone knew the strategy of how to beat it, so unless devs change mechanics of raids every time they respawn, every encounter will become easy. I dont get what is so hard in following set tactic to defeat the mob? Advanced AI? We're long way till its a thing in games.
Using bots and cash shop because there's no other way? Give me a break...so i should use aimbot at csgo just because i'm not as good as shroud, and i dont have any chance of beating him?
I have never met any lineage player who said that p2w cash shop is good, ever. No one was asking for it, but a lot of people used it, because it gives unfair advantage over people who dont use cash shop. So spare me with ur bs. Bots and p2w shop is about unfair advantage over others, nothing more. Someone who invest 4000 hours should be on top of someone with 400 hours.. You cant twist my words any way you want, but its clear that you want things to be easy for you.
Tragnar wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Ok, so ant queen was lvl 40 raid. Yes its easy when you have 1 lvl 40 party hitting the raid and then lvl 75 party dealing with minions, yes it could be considered easy in that way, also it has become easy once everyone knew the strategy of how to beat it, so unless devs change mechanics of raids every time they respawn, every encounter will become easy. I dont get what is so hard in following set tactic to defeat the mob? Advanced AI? We're long way till its a thing in games. If encounter becomes easy by figuring out the strategy then it was never hard to begin with. That is not an opinion it is a hard fact, it would mean that chopping firewood is difficult until you find that the best strategy is to use axe. If you truly want for encounters to be about finding the right strategy then you need severely cut down the amount of people dealing with such encounters. Which could be almost impossible if this game is extremely popular and has millions of players concurrently which would automatically give you gigantic top-end raider pool. Using bots and cash shop because there's no other way? Give me a break...so i should use aimbot at csgo just because i'm not as good as shroud, and i dont have any chance of beating him? You completely twist his point, that is extremely shameful imho. In csgo killing someone with a precise shot doesnt increase your chances to get the same shot again, because the only variance in there is your game sense and accuracy skill with tracking/clicking. Unlike MMO's where success is rewarded with better gear that makes succeeding again easier. I have never met any lineage player who said that p2w cash shop is good, ever. No one was asking for it, but a lot of people used it, because it gives unfair advantage over people who dont use cash shop. So spare me with ur bs. Bots and p2w shop is about unfair advantage over others, nothing more. Someone who invest 4000 hours should be on top of someone with 400 hours.. You cant twist my words any way you want, but its clear that you want things to be easy for you. I want to say that you twist his words without effort to understand what he means with them. All he tried to tell you with l2 is that people that got to the top could deny others getting to the top and the only avenue left for getting to the top is botting/cashshop If top players can block progression of other players then the top players are just players who invested most in the start. Doesn't mean they are "good" in any capacity other than being fast and dedicated
Mojottv wrote: » Ok, so ant queen was lvl 40 raid. Yes its easy when you have 1 lvl 40 party hitting the raid and then lvl 75 party dealing with minions, yes it could be considered easy in that way, also it has become easy once everyone knew the strategy of how to beat it, so unless devs change mechanics of raids every time they respawn, every encounter will become easy.
Noaani wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Ok, so ant queen was lvl 40 raid. Yes its easy when you have 1 lvl 40 party hitting the raid and then lvl 75 party dealing with minions, yes it could be considered easy in that way, also it has become easy once everyone knew the strategy of how to beat it, so unless devs change mechanics of raids every time they respawn, every encounter will become easy. Challenging content doesn't become easy when you understand the strategy. That is the definition of easy content. Content that you can kill without a strategy is called base population - it is content filler rather than content itself. The challenge from PvE content doesn't come from knowing the strategy, it comes from executing it.
Mojottv wrote: » Ok, so what do you consider a hard PVE encounter then?
And no, its actually quite the same, look at hours Shroud have in cs:go and effort he put in to getting good at the game. Talent gives you bit of advantage, but don't take away from his success by not acknowledging work he put in. So if i dont want to put in the work and hours into getting good, then i should use aim bot? Same with MMO's more hours and effort you put in, the higher lvl you are and better gear you have, so its a lot easier to fight people who put in less hours and effort.
And your last paragraph is complete bullshit. Noone can actually prevent you to lvling up or trading to earn money, they can make it harder for you, but if thats the case, it would be impossible to lvl up using bots. If im still missing the point explain me how people in the top can deny others getting in the top and how botting/ cash shop solves that?
Mojottv wrote: » So you confused me right up... so what is challenging PVE content again? Executing a strategy to kill a raid? But if you know the strategy you need to execute, that makes the content easy as that's definition of easy content?
Noaani wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » So you confused me right up... so what is challenging PVE content again? Executing a strategy to kill a raid? But if you know the strategy you need to execute, that makes the content easy as that's definition of easy content? I'm assuming you are being ignorant on purpose here. You are being ignorant, that isn't up for debate. I'm just assuming it is on purpose. However, I'll humor you for now. PvE content has a three step process to a raid being able to kill it. The first step is gathering data. The raid will pull the mob anywhere from a few times to a few dozen times (occasionally a few hundred times), in order to gather data about what the encounter does. The second step is consider that data, and decide on a strategy to take down the encounter - or at least decide on a strategy to attempt to take down the encounter. The third step, and this is the one that provides the challenge, is to execute that strategy. Since an individual player messing up even once can often wipe the entire raid, and since these encounters usually take around 15 - 20 minutes, that means you need a full raid of players effectively playing the game to perfecting for a third of an hour. Some encounters have mechanics to them where literally one player making a single actual mis-step will wipe the raid (I am only talking about marquee encounters here - not all raid content), so this perfection isn't just in using your abilities, but is also in maintaining your focus on multiple things at once. If this execution aspect of the encounter is easy to pull off, then the encounter is easy. Some games (read; WoW) essentially skip over the first two aspects of this. Players know the strategy for the encounter before the encounter is even on the live servers. This is why I don't consider WoW raiding to be actual raiding.
Tragnar wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Ok, so what do you consider a hard PVE encounter then? Coordination of raid team with multiple personal responsibilities with multiple stages of the fight focusing on different type gameplay that cannot be bypassed, but played around And no, its actually quite the same, look at hours Shroud have in cs:go and effort he put in to getting good at the game. Talent gives you bit of advantage, but don't take away from his success by not acknowledging work he put in. So if i dont want to put in the work and hours into getting good, then i should use aim bot? Same with MMO's more hours and effort you put in, the higher lvl you are and better gear you have, so its a lot easier to fight people who put in less hours and effort. Shroud and any fps pro players are talented yes, they have put many hours into the game, but their training and successes only improved themselves as players. Which is in contrast to MMO's, because you get direct rewards that make your character do better even though you as a player might not have changed at all. What I am saing is - getting better in csgo or any competitive fps is only with the player himself - game is the same constant getting better in MMO's is both getting better as a player and getting better gear. Where the improvement from getting better gear is often times much higher and impactful than the improvement as a player. You can't compare getting better in those two game types. One is the ultimate skill proving ground while the other is about commitment first and foremost with skill being a secondary factor. And your last paragraph is complete bullshit. Noone can actually prevent you to lvling up or trading to earn money, they can make it harder for you, but if thats the case, it would be impossible to lvl up using bots. If im still missing the point explain me how people in the top can deny others getting in the top and how botting/ cash shop solves that? If the game requires you to farm up any currency to break through to the top in such vast amounts that it becomes logistically impossible for players with real life responsibilities (even if those are only 40hours of work per week) then botting is the only legitimate way. It is totally wrong and is destroying any game, however I can see a world where the requirement can become so high that it is the only way for players to keep playing.
CaptnChuck wrote: » Oh look, @Bricktop and @Mojottv seem to be misunderstanding others as well. Surprise surprise. Who would have thought that people, who call other people "carebears" for having different opinions, would excel at misunderstanding others as well? Wow, I never did.
Mojottv wrote: » So you consider hard PVE content is having people with lives to log in at the same time and work as a team to kill a raid? If everyone knows the strategy on killing the raid, they will know what are the multiple stages of the fight and will know what to do, hence its not hard. I'm really dont want to argue about this any more. Cheating is not the answer, ever.
Mojottv wrote: » well you call me ignorant yet i quoted what you wrote and asked to explain yourself as your statements contradict each other...ok, whatever.
Challenging content doesn't become easy when you understand the strategy. That is the definition of easy content. Content that you can kill without a strategy is called base population - it is content filler rather than content itself. The challenge from PvE content doesn't come from knowing the strategy, it comes from executing it.
So steps 1 and 2 will be available for everyone to know in any mmo after majority of players have access to raid. So figuring out strategy is hard just for the first few parties that access the raid, and you cant argue that its just like this in any game.
Yes, one mistake might cost wipe to entire raid, still, you know what to do and what not to do, so all you need to do, is follow the instructions.
