Bricktop wrote: » "Ashes of creation is not for everyone". Some of my fondest memories from Lineage 2 are fighting other guilds for control of world bosses. I really hope they dont change the game to cater to WoW raiders.
Tragnar wrote: » Wow, do you even know how will the gear work? If you want to have the best gear, then you need to have loot from raids. And all we want is that ALL bosses are "challenging" without any regard to PvP. All it seems that you are asking for are piss easy training dummies with a lot of hp so it takes a few minutes to kill and distribute loot for your PvP battles. Am I wrong?@Tyrantor
Tragnar wrote: » There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids. Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people?
Deadly Dave wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids. Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people? Can't see this happening, 8k to 10k on a server surely 1 guild (300 cap) not going to rule the whole map
Tyrantor wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » Wow, do you even know how will the gear work? If you want to have the best gear, then you need to have loot from raids. And all we want is that ALL bosses are "challenging" without any regard to PvP. All it seems that you are asking for are piss easy training dummies with a lot of hp so it takes a few minutes to kill and distribute loot for your PvP battles. Am I wrong?@Tyrantor I would settle for using you, capt and noaani as my training dummies. Though you do understand this isn't WoW where items and gear are constantly soulbound right? Most if not all of the best gear is going to be crafted do you think this means we all need to take crafting to gear out? Do you think this means we can't trade or buy high end / epic type gear? If your concern is you won't get special loot because it's not instanced and you might die, you could just farm low level mobs and save up the gold to buy them.
Bricktop wrote: » Deadly Dave wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids. Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people? Can't see this happening, 8k to 10k on a server surely 1 guild (300 cap) not going to rule the whole map Just a quick correction @Deadly Dave it will be 50k accounts registered to a server with 8-10k players playing at any given time. That's the goal anyway
Tragnar wrote: » If you want to have the highest quality gear only through currency transactions then you must one hell of a good farmer. Because the gear is not going to be hard to purchase, but hard to keep repaired when there are planned extensive maintenance costs most likely paid with the raid loot as well. I literally don't understand your PvP bloodthirst - I'll just will not return any fire and watch you get corrupted so bounty hunters might take your gear xD I honestly don't understand what your PvP ganking itches have to do with the want to make PvE encounters hard and exclussive to a portion of the playerbase
Tragnar wrote: » Mainly it comes down from the fact that i've been playing pve healer for a long time so I have been farmed for a long ass time. I don't mind getting killed in the world, but I just hate when someone is following me to reskill me. Also people that stand in front of an auction house and printing money are rarely active PvP players - at least in my experience. Also what I tried to say is that we do not yet know the supply and demand for the raid materials. Also in my experience guilds sell raid materials if they are in surplus of it or the materials are no longer relevant to them. However this is a big topic about the gear system which I think deserves its own thread. If it is possible I'd be glad if the topic of the discussion returned to its start - which was about people zerging bosses with hundreds of people and thus the promised difficulty of the raids being in question
Tragnar wrote: » @Tyrantor The answer is simple. No game EVER has created a challenging open world bosses when the boss fight could be influenced by PvP. The PvE challenge was always laughably easy by coordinated players when there was no PvP going around - basically just free loot box that takes 5-15minutes to open I am completely fine if the boss loot (the hunting certificates) are in PvP danger after you finish the boss and are transporting the loot to town. What I do not want is for that PvP to happen DURING the boss fight. The difficulty of the fight always suffers and it becomes just a place for another giant PvP battle
vsD wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » @Tyrantor The answer is simple. No game EVER has created a challenging open world bosses when the boss fight could be influenced by PvP. The PvE challenge was always laughably easy by coordinated players when there was no PvP going around - basically just free loot box that takes 5-15minutes to open I am completely fine if the boss loot (the hunting certificates) are in PvP danger after you finish the boss and are transporting the loot to town. What I do not want is for that PvP to happen DURING the boss fight. The difficulty of the fight always suffers and it becomes just a place for another giant PvP battle Lineage 2 had very challenging open world fights in the later patches, Antharas and Valakas, both dragons, needed very specific tactics to be killed and even had anti zerg mechanics that were triggered if you brought too many ppl.
There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[11] – Steven Sharif
Tragnar wrote: » Difficult raids are about playing well and not making any mistakes while following a strategy. If Ashes does not have that then I very much doubt that there might be a goal for me to strive for.
Tragnar wrote: » Your mental gymnastics do not stop to amaze me, you are truly hopeless PvP player that needs to have in every action in the game a PvP battle
Tragnar wrote: » vsD wrote: » Tragnar wrote: » @Tyrantor The answer is simple. No game EVER has created a challenging open world bosses when the boss fight could be influenced by PvP. The PvE challenge was always laughably easy by coordinated players when there was no PvP going around - basically just free loot box that takes 5-15minutes to open I am completely fine if the boss loot (the hunting certificates) are in PvP danger after you finish the boss and are transporting the loot to town. What I do not want is for that PvP to happen DURING the boss fight. The difficulty of the fight always suffers and it becomes just a place for another giant PvP battle Lineage 2 had very challenging open world fights in the later patches, Antharas and Valakas, both dragons, needed very specific tactics to be killed and even had anti zerg mechanics that were triggered if you brought too many ppl. I didnt play l2 and all I could find now for the Antharas fight is simple tank&spank with spawning adds as he looses hp. Edit: My bad I found the original strategy for it. Seems pretty advanced for the time, periodic add spawns with raid wide dmg and some crowd control. Seems though that the player count was intended between 49 and 200 which means that the difficulty was never intended to be high otherwise it would not have such a wide intended player count. If the boss is killable by 49 people then the 200 people make it a literal target dummy (unless the players you bring are target dummies) Wow I just had to laugh really hard when reading the description - seems that pvp was disabled in the Antharas's room. I am sorry if this sounds elitist or arogant, but I need to say this. Having bosses that have 90-300 people "required" to kill them are just loot boxes. I am not saying that such events are not cool or that they do not entice guild drama. All I am saying is that any difficulty with such bosses is just to organize enough people to get them to the spot. Difficult raids are about playing well and not making any mistakes while following a strategy. If Ashes does not have that then I very much doubt that there might be a goal for me to strive for. The only reason why I am actually participating in this forum and waiting for the game is this quote from Steven: There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[11] – Steven Sharif
Tragnar wrote: » If you design raids with PvP in mind then the raids are laughably easy. If you create a scaling encounter for hundreds of people then it is inherintly either unkillable or laughably easy. And if this quote is to be believed to be true: There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[11] – Steven Sharif It is literally impossible to have raids that are like: "It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content..." and being in any way shape or form being doable with active PvP around it.
Marcet wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Marcet wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Devs have constantly repeat that they aiming to have a game with risk vs reward system, so if you dont want to risk you dont get the best reward. Pvp in open world raids and open world PVE content adds risk. so again, if you dont want to risk, you will go for not as popular raids and hunting grounds. instanced dungeons and raids completely removes this risk. You might say, making pve in instanced dungions harder mitigates this, but in reality after a week youtube will be full of guides how to clear dungions and raids, so all mechanics will be known and content become much easier. if you clear dungeon once, it will be peace of cake to clear it again. With open world pvp you always have risk of being ganked or your raiding interfered and every encounter is different, so its adds more repeatability as never killing a raid will be same experience. Most of wow players stop playing wow after they clear all the PVE content, then wait for new expansion, clear new stuff, then wait again. We don't want harder PvE and remove PvP. What we fear is Intrepid making PvE too easy, cause of the PvP factor. well judging by most comments, pve'rs are asking for instanced dungeons and raids, to have "safespace" for pve content. I don't see any reasons for making open world raids hard, with interesting mechanics regardless of extra difficulty due to possible pvp as long as tp spots are mot next to raids, which was said will npt going to be the case, as they want distance to matter. And with family tp feature if you have smart reuse time you wont going to be able to tp whole zerg next to the boss 2nd time. So you win a pvp fight and you have some time to finish the boss. That's the problem, what if there's no PvP skirmish in a dungeon end boss??? The boss is just gonna be a piece of cake??? If I can agree with keeping PvP, you have to agree to not dumb down the difficulty of PvE.
Mojottv wrote: » Marcet wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Devs have constantly repeat that they aiming to have a game with risk vs reward system, so if you dont want to risk you dont get the best reward. Pvp in open world raids and open world PVE content adds risk. so again, if you dont want to risk, you will go for not as popular raids and hunting grounds. instanced dungeons and raids completely removes this risk. You might say, making pve in instanced dungions harder mitigates this, but in reality after a week youtube will be full of guides how to clear dungions and raids, so all mechanics will be known and content become much easier. if you clear dungeon once, it will be peace of cake to clear it again. With open world pvp you always have risk of being ganked or your raiding interfered and every encounter is different, so its adds more repeatability as never killing a raid will be same experience. Most of wow players stop playing wow after they clear all the PVE content, then wait for new expansion, clear new stuff, then wait again. We don't want harder PvE and remove PvP. What we fear is Intrepid making PvE too easy, cause of the PvP factor. well judging by most comments, pve'rs are asking for instanced dungeons and raids, to have "safespace" for pve content. I don't see any reasons for making open world raids hard, with interesting mechanics regardless of extra difficulty due to possible pvp as long as tp spots are mot next to raids, which was said will npt going to be the case, as they want distance to matter. And with family tp feature if you have smart reuse time you wont going to be able to tp whole zerg next to the boss 2nd time. So you win a pvp fight and you have some time to finish the boss.
Marcet wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Devs have constantly repeat that they aiming to have a game with risk vs reward system, so if you dont want to risk you dont get the best reward. Pvp in open world raids and open world PVE content adds risk. so again, if you dont want to risk, you will go for not as popular raids and hunting grounds. instanced dungeons and raids completely removes this risk. You might say, making pve in instanced dungions harder mitigates this, but in reality after a week youtube will be full of guides how to clear dungions and raids, so all mechanics will be known and content become much easier. if you clear dungeon once, it will be peace of cake to clear it again. With open world pvp you always have risk of being ganked or your raiding interfered and every encounter is different, so its adds more repeatability as never killing a raid will be same experience. Most of wow players stop playing wow after they clear all the PVE content, then wait for new expansion, clear new stuff, then wait again. We don't want harder PvE and remove PvP. What we fear is Intrepid making PvE too easy, cause of the PvP factor.
Mojottv wrote: » Devs have constantly repeat that they aiming to have a game with risk vs reward system, so if you dont want to risk you dont get the best reward. Pvp in open world raids and open world PVE content adds risk. so again, if you dont want to risk, you will go for not as popular raids and hunting grounds. instanced dungeons and raids completely removes this risk. You might say, making pve in instanced dungions harder mitigates this, but in reality after a week youtube will be full of guides how to clear dungions and raids, so all mechanics will be known and content become much easier. if you clear dungeon once, it will be peace of cake to clear it again. With open world pvp you always have risk of being ganked or your raiding interfered and every encounter is different, so its adds more repeatability as never killing a raid will be same experience. Most of wow players stop playing wow after they clear all the PVE content, then wait for new expansion, clear new stuff, then wait again.
