Open world raids

There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids.

Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people?

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Hurf Derfman

These wall of text psychos are like first year English lit majors who think that they're one point is somehow enhanced by four extra sentences.

Noaani

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

These wall of text psychos are like first year English lit majors who think that they're one point is somehow enhanced by four extra sentences.

No, they are there to attempt to head off people that want to nit-pick a detail that was omitted for the sake of berevety - which is something you do often.

A post of less than a few hundred words contains no real opinion in it, a post of over 600 words is an attempt to stop people from arguing the wrong point.

Hurf Derfman

Noaani wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

These wall of text psychos are like first year English lit majors who think that they're one point is somehow enhanced by four extra sentences.

No, they are there to attempt to head off people that want to nit-pick a detail that was omitted for the sake of berevety - which is something you do often.

A post of less than a few hundred words contains no real opinion in it, a post of over 600 words is an attempt to stop people from arguing the wrong point.

These wall of text psychos use big words that sound smart (in theory) and literally have zero sense of joy or humor.

Warth

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

These wall of text psychos are like first year English lit majors who think that they're one point is somehow enhanced by four extra sentences.

No, they are there to attempt to head off people that want to nit-pick a detail that was omitted for the sake of berevety - which is something you do often.

A post of less than a few hundred words contains no real opinion in it, a post of over 600 words is an attempt to stop people from arguing the wrong point.

These wall of text psychos use big words that sound smart (in theory) and literally have zero sense of joy or humor.

I don't think joy or humor is or should be a big factor in online discussions at all.
There is other outlets for that.

Hurf Derfman

Warth wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

These wall of text psychos are like first year English lit majors who think that they're one point is somehow enhanced by four extra sentences.

No, they are there to attempt to head off people that want to nit-pick a detail that was omitted for the sake of berevety - which is something you do often.

A post of less than a few hundred words contains no real opinion in it, a post of over 600 words is an attempt to stop people from arguing the wrong point.

These wall of text psychos use big words that sound smart (in theory) and literally have zero sense of joy or humor.

I don't think joy or humor is or should be a big factor in online discussions at all.
There is other outlets for that.

These wall of text psychos sometimes pretend to not be wall of text psychos and simp for each other.

Noaani

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

These wall of text psychos are like first year English lit majors who think that they're one point is somehow enhanced by four extra sentences.

No, they are there to attempt to head off people that want to nit-pick a detail that was omitted for the sake of berevety - which is something you do often.

A post of less than a few hundred words contains no real opinion in it, a post of over 600 words is an attempt to stop people from arguing the wrong point.

These wall of text psychos use big words that sound smart (in theory) and literally have zero sense of joy or humor.

I don't think you understand the point of discussion.

Anyone coming to a gaming forum in search of "joy" should probably find some more effective source of joy in their life.

Tyrantor

Noaani wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

These wall of text psychos are like first year English lit majors who think that they're one point is somehow enhanced by four extra sentences.

No, they are there to attempt to head off people that want to nit-pick a detail that was omitted for the sake of berevety - which is something you do often.

A post of less than a few hundred words contains no real opinion in it, a post of over 600 words is an attempt to stop people from arguing the wrong point.

These wall of text psychos use big words that sound smart (in theory) and literally have zero sense of joy or humor.

I don't think you understand the point of discussion.

Anyone coming to a gaming forum in search of "joy" should probably find some more effective source of joy in their life.

That seems like a pretty unfair judgment, why shouldn't he come to the forum for a game he likes or has interest in for some joy? I'm fairly certain ive even heard Steven say he "Enjoys" reading the forums. Should he not get joy from it either?

Anyway since it appears you've purposely avoided some parts of my wall of text above i'll just repeat the most pertinent information for you here.

If you can not beat the bosses in an open world setting then you're not part of the single digit % of players that can do it. If you need a guild protection or not, if your guilds not big enough make an alliance. If you still fail then I guess it's not meant to be welcome to the 90+% of players sorry but that's the end of it.

Noaani

Tyrantor wrote: »

That seems like a pretty unfair judgment, why shouldn't he come to the forum for a game he likes or has interest in for some joy? I'm fairly certain ive even heard Steven say he "Enjoys" reading the forums. Should he not get joy from it either?

If you get some form of enjoyment out of it, good for you. I've said it before on these forums, I do take a small amount of pride in the fact that I have provided Stevens player base with more entertainment than he has - due to at least some people being entertained by forum posts.

However, complaining that posts or threads do not have any enjoyment factor to reading them when those posts and threads are an actual discussion rather than some obtuse notion that someone spouted without thinking is just odd. You don't come to a serious discussion looking for your daily quote of joy.

If you can not beat the bosses in an open world setting then you're not part of the single digit % of players that can do it. If you need a guild protection or not, if your guilds not big enough make an alliance. If you still fail then I guess it's not meant to be welcome to the 90+% of players sorry but that's the end of it.

If it is possible for the bosses to be killed in an open environment, then the bosses are not top end content.

If the only way for the game to survive is for players to band together in to mass alliances as you are suggesting, the game won't last.

There needs to be room for guilds that just want to do their own thing. They don't need to own the castles, they don't need to lead the sieges, they don't even need to kill the world bosses. All they need to do is enjoy their time in the game, be customers for crafters and content for PvP'ers.

I mean, you want PvP content, right?

anotherone

Fuppo Headhunter wrote: »

-I will remind some of the users in this post that you are to Be well unto others, and respect each other. (No hate speech, racism, sexism, politics, religion, suicidal ideation, excessive trolling, toxicity, etc.)

Would highly recommend you start to follow these rules more closely.

I would expect this kind of "toxic" behaviour is the everyday standard. You see there are already assaults in this kind of topic. Maybe its better to clear the thing in this topic sooner then later.

For me, its ok if you say "this and that wont happen", so i can move on or hang on. But just sitting there watching them fighting over given informations arent that proud.

Hopefully we will get some more details in the near future!

Tragnar

@Tyrantor
I am glad for your long post, it showed me what you have problem with - and I actually share that problem. I do not want instances to be free resources for the playerbase. If an instance would to exist then only for the safety from griefing and not actual guild to guild competition

Also I would be ok if the ratio for top end content would have less than 20% of player related wipes that were not part of the original 40 man raid team. Problem with that is what kind of system you want to implement to keep that from being almost 100% with the few windows being only during the lowest offtime like night

Tyrantor

Noaani wrote: »

There needs to be room for guilds that just want to do their own thing. They don't need to own the castles, they don't need to lead the sieges, they don't even need to kill the world bosses. All they need to do is enjoy their time in the game, be customers for crafters and content for PvP'ers.

Here you go this is it. You will have the choice to join the guilds that can compete for the world bosses or not. They do not need to be instanced. The developers can design the boss npcs around no interference just like they would if it was inside of an instance, if the interference happens then it does and no more boss raid.

I'll agree that it might be the reality for the guild that wants to just do their own thing may have to focus their energy around off peak hours, but see this is the choice they make, that becomes their "player freedom" within the game. No one is forcing them to be allied with the entire server to do this. However if that doesn't work for them then maybe they'll need to do something other than wish the zone was instanced to solve the problem for not being social or trying to work with other people on the server to accomplish their goals.

The instances make the game cater to a minority and let me explain this, I'm not saying there are more PvP players than PVE what I'm saying is that an instance takes the the freedom of choice away from everyone else on the server that may want to interfere. So you have a group of 40 players dictating to the rest of the server (1-9960 players) that their choice no longer matters because you found an instance and the rest of the server can't touch you.

It's true there will be guilds who focus on PvP in and around dungeons on a daily basis that will be their freedom of choice, maybe you work a deal out with them, maybe you don't. This is the beauty of open world. It's going to require the players to decide the outcome of events not the developers. Instances take away this dynamic. So while loot is a concern I'm more concerned with the lack of meaningful interactions it would remove from the game the more instances that are placed in the game world, especially on meaningful content outside of storyline, small group questing.

Noaani

Tyrantor wrote: »

Here you go this is it. You will have the choice to join the guilds that can compete for the world bosses or not. They do not need to be instanced. The developers can design the boss npcs around no interference just like they would if it was inside of an instance, if the interference happens then it does and no more boss raid.

This type of content is a different type all together.

Encounters that are in the open world, but that are not able to be interferred with are actually my single favorate type of content in any game I have ever played. While I do also enjoy PvP enabled open world encounters, ones like this are - to me - significantly more interesting.

There are two issues with them still though.

The first is that it doesn't mean guilds will know they have content. These types of encounters spawn once a week or so per server. Again, this is great as a content type itself, but it doesn't solve the issue of giving guilds content.

The second issue is that of call lists. The last game I had with this type of content required players in guilds attempting it to make an effort to be online when the encounter spawns - regardless of what time of day that was. If the encounter spawned at 3am on a tuesday, expect a phone call.

So you have a group of 40 players dictating to the rest of the server (1-9960 players) that their choice no longer matters because you found an instance and the rest of the server can't touch you.

Indeed, and 30 minutes or so later (assuming success), you come back out to a known location, with additional material that can be looted in PvP. It isn't reducing the options - the options are still to attack the raid or not attack the raid. All it is doing is providing windows for when that attack can take place.

This isn't reducing the options of those other 9960 players, it is simply telling them that the option to attack this specific raid will have to wait a little, but at that point will have greater potential rewards.

Again, from that perspective of those 9960 players in a PvP setting, this is consistent with the design of the game. Spend a little more time, get potentially better rewards.

As an argument, this is like saying the game shouldn't have siege windows - it reduces the options for when players can attack nodes.

Placing windows on when players can make a specific choice is not removing options of freedom - especially not if the potential rewards for those choices alters between the various windows available.

As a final thought to this last point - remember that there are still always going to be open world encounters. The guilds want to run instanced content will likely want to take on any bosses that are up in the dungeon leading to the instance - loot from the instances I am suggesting alone would take a guild well over a year togear up on. This means that even people that are *only* willing to attack a raid while it is engaged in a top end PvE encounter will still be able to do so.

So, I really don't see any fewer options for players. You can attacl a guild while it is not in PvE, you can attack a guild while it is in PvP. You can attack a guild while the members are zoning out of the instance (always a weak point). You can attack the guild before they run the instance. You can attack the raid after they run the instance.

To me, that actually seems like more options...

Tyrantor

I see we'll just have to fundamentally disagree here because I would also be in favor of not having windows for the sieges. I understand why they're doing this because the Node system isn't guild controlled but at the very least the Castle sieges should probably fall into a large window or full freedom for the players since it will be guild driven content.

I'm all about taking the training wheels and breaks off the bike when it comes to MMO game play so any restrictions put in place by the development team to make things "fair" will lean more your direction than mine 100% on all levels PvE, PvP, loot drop, item drop etc.

Anyway good chat.

Noaani

Tyrantor wrote: »

I see we'll just have to fundamentally disagree here because I would also be in favor of not having windows for the sieges. I understand why they're doing this because the Node system isn't guild controlled but at the very least the Castle sieges should probably fall into a large window or full freedom for the players since it will be guild driven content.

I'm all about taking the training wheels and breaks off the bike when it comes to MMO game play so any restrictions put in place by the development team to make things "fair" will lean more your direction than mine 100% on all levels PvE, PvP, loot drop, item drop etc.

Anyway good chat.

I'm all for the training wheels and brakes coming off too - I just think if we are going to push people down hill on a bike in that state, we should at least make sure there are no logs over the track on the way down.

To me, that is all a few instances in Ashes would do. It isn't guaranteeing that a guild will get the kill, and getting the kill won't guarantee that a guild will keep the rewards. That is about as no training wheels and brakes as a game needs to be - anything more than that is purposefully placing a barrier in front of that no brakes bike.

Hurf Derfman

Learning to not run into logs or go off cliffs is a very important skill set in down hill mountain biking.

Noaani

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

Learning to not run into logs or go off cliffs is a very important skill set in down hill mountain biking.

Indeed it is.

That doesn't mean it is ok for people to just leave logs over the track though, or for the path to take you over a cliff.

To take the already exhausted analogy here even further, a good mountain bike park will always offer varying levels of challenge with their tracks, and will also offer various tracks that provide that challenge in different ways - even if the park in question is only targeting experienced mountain bikers

Hurf Derfman

@Noaani I disagree. Sure there is a limit, and avoiding sadism is a good thing. All kidding aside I do actually understand your point of view.

That being said having chaos stand in your path and learning how to manage it with appropriate tools to do so is a fundamental learning process and makes for some of the most excellent gameplay in any video game regardless of genre.

The important part is that the game is designed in a way to allow the player to overcome the challenges. If the game's brutal that's good it will require teamwork and communication. If the games too brutal then that would be bad because no matter how you work together it feels like it's not working.

Keep in mind since the beginning of this thread I've advocated good PVE, I just want there to also be the option to have PVP. Now in terms of efficiency we don't know what will happen because the alpha hasn't even launched yet.

I don't play WoW vanilla because I've already played WoW vanilla. I'm not one of those guys who's like old vanilla was the best. I honestly think Wrath of the Lich King was the best overall expansion in WoW's history. But but as someone who was there when Black Rock Depths was new I understood two things. One, it was a PVP hotspot outside of the instance gate where people fought. Two, BRD was a complex dungeon with multiple bosses and they were all tough for their time, so having a competing group delve the same dungeon at the same time, actually sounds kind of exciting.

I'm going to get a bit theory crafty here but from what I've seen of the dungeon design it looks like there's going to be complex labyritine dungeons designed for eight-man groups but with the potential to have a 40-man boss just kind of hanging out in certain spots. So sure you can be hostile flagged and fight other guys or whatever but at the end of the day maybe it'll be more efficient to just, you know chill and be like hey let's work together on this thing.

There may also be rooms where it's like well no I want a recipe from this drop this is my farming spot GTFO. This is all great and it's a good thing. At least in theory.

Aguing semantics to death is just arguing semantics to death. We're not going to know until they put the damn thing out there in the open for us to play.

Noaani

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

That being said having chaos stand in your path and learning how to manage it with appropriate tools to do so is a fundamental learning process and makes for some of the most excellent gameplay in any video game regardless of genre.

I completely agree, 100%.

The thing is, what I am suggesting isn't going to stop people from needing to do that. 3 instanced encounters is not enough in itself for a guild to survive on (literally - if that is all a guild is attempting, the guild will fall apart).

All this is doing is giving players one small corner of content that is theirs, that they know they can at least attempt, that once they have figured out (and assuming they can survive PvP), gives them a means by which to gear up a small amount - all so that they can then take on the open world content that the game will still be based on.

I honestly think Wrath of the Lich King was the best overall expansion in WoW's history.

I can literally only speak to raid content in WoW (unless you consider the first two levels as content worth speaking on). I agree with this point though.

It was the only time I actually enjoyed an encounter in WoW. It is better than a lot of content in other games, but not as good as the best content in other games, imo.

I'm going to get a bit theory crafty here but from what I've seen of the dungeon design it looks like there's going to be complex labyritine dungeons designed for eight-man groups but with the potential to have a 40-man boss just kind of hanging out in certain spots. So sure you can be hostile flagged and fight other guys or whatever but at the end of the day maybe it'll be more efficient to just, you know chill and be like hey let's work together on this thing.

It is entierly possible that people will work together on encounters like this, but the most likely thing (assuming these raid encounters drop top end loot) is that top end guilds will work out the spawn timer and window, and will be ready and waiting for them to spawn.

Rather than these encounters being a case of groups in the dungeon working together, it is more likely to be top end guilds clearing out single groups leading up to the known encounter spawn.

That said, this kind of content is great - this is what Ashes is built around. This is not a point I am disputing - I am actually looking forward to this content a lot. I am simply saying that the best thing for the game as I see it - assuming the best thing for the game is to retain as large and as varied a player base as possible - is for there to also be a few instanced encounters.

Demidreamer

I thought this was a greater the risk, the greater the reward game.

How much of this do you need really?

Noaani wrote: »

I want to see instanced raid encounters in the game so that there are situations where players can fight PvE encounters in a completely known setting (known to the designer of the content). This allows content to be highly curated, complex encounters.

/w the addition of combat trackers where is the risk? Should the reward be absent too?

The way I see the situation with the combat tracker you plan on running, is that you know about as much as the designer does, if not more if your intending to be reporting bugs in the program, right.?.

Hurf Derfman

Noaani wrote: »

Hurf Derfman wrote: »

That being said having chaos stand in your path and learning how to manage it with appropriate tools to do so is a fundamental learning process and makes for some of the most excellent gameplay in any video game regardless of genre.

I completely agree, 100%.

The thing is, what I am suggesting isn't going to stop people from needing to do that. 3 instanced encounters is not enough in itself for a guild to survive on (literally - if that is all a guild is attempting, the guild will fall apart).

All this is doing is giving players one small corner of content that is theirs, that they know they can at least attempt, that once they have figured out (and assuming they can survive PvP), gives them a means by which to gear up a small amount - all so that they can then take on the open world content that the game will still be based on.

I honestly think Wrath of the Lich King was the best overall expansion in WoW's history.

I can literally only speak to raid content in WoW (unless you consider the first two levels as content worth speaking on). I agree with this point though.

It was the only time I actually enjoyed an encounter in WoW. It is better than a lot of content in other games, but not as good as the best content in other games, imo.

I'm going to get a bit theory crafty here but from what I've seen of the dungeon design it looks like there's going to be complex labyritine dungeons designed for eight-man groups but with the potential to have a 40-man boss just kind of hanging out in certain spots. So sure you can be hostile flagged and fight other guys or whatever but at the end of the day maybe it'll be more efficient to just, you know chill and be like hey let's work together on this thing.

It is entierly possible that people will work together on encounters like this, but the most likely thing (assuming these raid encounters drop top end loot) is that top end guilds will work out the spawn timer and window, and will be ready and waiting for them to spawn.

Rather than these encounters being a case of groups in the dungeon working together, it is more likely to be top end guilds clearing out single groups leading up to the known encounter spawn.

That said, this kind of content is great - this is what Ashes is built around. This is not a point I am disputing - I am actually looking forward to this content a lot. I am simply saying that the best thing for the game as I see it - assuming the best thing for the game is to retain as large and as varied a player base as possible - is for there to also be a few instanced encounters.

Not everyone who wants to become a Navy SEAL becomes a Navy SEAL.
/End thread.

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