Bricktop wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Xyls wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right? I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that. Ofcourse it occured, so what? but it was punishable and it wasn't often and you had ways to deal with it. If you want safe space, where big bad griefer cant catch you, best option is to play games without pvp at all, like WOW or other bullshit carebear mmo, where only pvp is when two players mutually negotiate the terms and conditions of their duel, then one proposes and other accepts the invitation to throw down, after which they bid good day to each other and go on on their happy life fishing or weaving or knitting or whatever the f they do in hello kitty island adventure... What kind of system do you have in mind, that doesnt forbid or limit actions of player, while also punishing griefing? also what do you consider griefing? You scary bro. If you do not consent it is not player vs player. It is player vs victim. Your attitude is exactly why open world/non consensual pvp always fails or becomes so toxic only the bad guys are left running around whacking each other for no reason. I can tell from your response you know very little about this game. 1. This is an open world game that will have open world pvp. If you create a character and log into the world, you are consenting to pvp. There are no victims. 2. Why do the carebears always think they know why open world pvp games fail? If they don't play them, how would they know... If they do, then they are consensual participants in said pvp and it must not be as bad as they think it is. 3. Why do the carebears always relate people participating in open world pvp as the "bad guys". There are plenty of reasons to engage in open world pvp with people that are for the betterment of the game and community. Don't like griefers? Make it your mission to kill them and help the little guys. 1. So I can get murdered while walking down the street, by your thinking I consented to it when I left the house...hmmm, never want to met you in a dark ally. i see no difference with your scenario and mine. It may be a morals thing, not sure. 2. I have played plenty of open world pvp games and am currently playing Aion after a 4 year hiatus, when I quit their were at least 15 NA servers, their is now two. I wounder why? It is a full open world/non consensual pvp game. I also play Eve online, I have no aversion to pvp as long as all parties agree. You can ruin my play session by murdering me, but i have no way to ruin yours. Non consensual pvp is one sided enjoyment. 3. Their is no good reason to ruin another persons play time. "Oh no, somebody is picking my flowers I must murder him", really. If they mean that much to you if you, ask nicely I will go pick flowers some place else, and apologize for walking thru your garden, jeez just be civil, seems to be lacking now a days. I know your type you will not fight another person who is willing, you just want soft targets to harvest their tears, (that is a bad person). 1. This is a video game get a grip on reality. Very large difference between a video game and real life murder how delusional are you? 2. Aion is 12 years old at this point and was never very good to begin with. EVE on the other hand is one of the longest running and most succesful MMORPGs with what you have termed "Non-consensual PvP" I'm sure you have whined about that game too and demanded it be changed while continuing to play for the last 18 years or whatever long it's been. 3. Whats not fun for thee is fun for me. You aren't the fun police determining how other people have fun. The world is not centered around you.
jubilum wrote: » Xyls wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right? I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that. Ofcourse it occured, so what? but it was punishable and it wasn't often and you had ways to deal with it. If you want safe space, where big bad griefer cant catch you, best option is to play games without pvp at all, like WOW or other bullshit carebear mmo, where only pvp is when two players mutually negotiate the terms and conditions of their duel, then one proposes and other accepts the invitation to throw down, after which they bid good day to each other and go on on their happy life fishing or weaving or knitting or whatever the f they do in hello kitty island adventure... What kind of system do you have in mind, that doesnt forbid or limit actions of player, while also punishing griefing? also what do you consider griefing? You scary bro. If you do not consent it is not player vs player. It is player vs victim. Your attitude is exactly why open world/non consensual pvp always fails or becomes so toxic only the bad guys are left running around whacking each other for no reason. I can tell from your response you know very little about this game. 1. This is an open world game that will have open world pvp. If you create a character and log into the world, you are consenting to pvp. There are no victims. 2. Why do the carebears always think they know why open world pvp games fail? If they don't play them, how would they know... If they do, then they are consensual participants in said pvp and it must not be as bad as they think it is. 3. Why do the carebears always relate people participating in open world pvp as the "bad guys". There are plenty of reasons to engage in open world pvp with people that are for the betterment of the game and community. Don't like griefers? Make it your mission to kill them and help the little guys. 1. So I can get murdered while walking down the street, by your thinking I consented to it when I left the house...hmmm, never want to met you in a dark ally. i see no difference with your scenario and mine. It may be a morals thing, not sure. 2. I have played plenty of open world pvp games and am currently playing Aion after a 4 year hiatus, when I quit their were at least 15 NA servers, their is now two. I wounder why? It is a full open world/non consensual pvp game. I also play Eve online, I have no aversion to pvp as long as all parties agree. You can ruin my play session by murdering me, but i have no way to ruin yours. Non consensual pvp is one sided enjoyment. 3. Their is no good reason to ruin another persons play time. "Oh no, somebody is picking my flowers I must murder him", really. If they mean that much to you if you, ask nicely I will go pick flowers some place else, and apologize for walking thru your garden, jeez just be civil, seems to be lacking now a days. I know your type you will not fight another person who is willing, you just want soft targets to harvest their tears, (that is a bad person).
Xyls wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right? I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that. Ofcourse it occured, so what? but it was punishable and it wasn't often and you had ways to deal with it. If you want safe space, where big bad griefer cant catch you, best option is to play games without pvp at all, like WOW or other bullshit carebear mmo, where only pvp is when two players mutually negotiate the terms and conditions of their duel, then one proposes and other accepts the invitation to throw down, after which they bid good day to each other and go on on their happy life fishing or weaving or knitting or whatever the f they do in hello kitty island adventure... What kind of system do you have in mind, that doesnt forbid or limit actions of player, while also punishing griefing? also what do you consider griefing? You scary bro. If you do not consent it is not player vs player. It is player vs victim. Your attitude is exactly why open world/non consensual pvp always fails or becomes so toxic only the bad guys are left running around whacking each other for no reason. I can tell from your response you know very little about this game. 1. This is an open world game that will have open world pvp. If you create a character and log into the world, you are consenting to pvp. There are no victims. 2. Why do the carebears always think they know why open world pvp games fail? If they don't play them, how would they know... If they do, then they are consensual participants in said pvp and it must not be as bad as they think it is. 3. Why do the carebears always relate people participating in open world pvp as the "bad guys". There are plenty of reasons to engage in open world pvp with people that are for the betterment of the game and community. Don't like griefers? Make it your mission to kill them and help the little guys.
jubilum wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right? I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that. Ofcourse it occured, so what? but it was punishable and it wasn't often and you had ways to deal with it. If you want safe space, where big bad griefer cant catch you, best option is to play games without pvp at all, like WOW or other bullshit carebear mmo, where only pvp is when two players mutually negotiate the terms and conditions of their duel, then one proposes and other accepts the invitation to throw down, after which they bid good day to each other and go on on their happy life fishing or weaving or knitting or whatever the f they do in hello kitty island adventure... What kind of system do you have in mind, that doesnt forbid or limit actions of player, while also punishing griefing? also what do you consider griefing? You scary bro. If you do not consent it is not player vs player. It is player vs victim. Your attitude is exactly why open world/non consensual pvp always fails or becomes so toxic only the bad guys are left running around whacking each other for no reason.
Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right? I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that. Ofcourse it occured, so what? but it was punishable and it wasn't often and you had ways to deal with it. If you want safe space, where big bad griefer cant catch you, best option is to play games without pvp at all, like WOW or other bullshit carebear mmo, where only pvp is when two players mutually negotiate the terms and conditions of their duel, then one proposes and other accepts the invitation to throw down, after which they bid good day to each other and go on on their happy life fishing or weaving or knitting or whatever the f they do in hello kitty island adventure... What kind of system do you have in mind, that doesnt forbid or limit actions of player, while also punishing griefing? also what do you consider griefing?
CaptnChuck wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right? I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that.
Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it
CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do.
Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't.
CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing.
Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others.
CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience.
Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds.
CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time.
Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC.
CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well.
jubilum wrote: » Bricktop wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Xyls wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right? I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that. Ofcourse it occured, so what? but it was punishable and it wasn't often and you had ways to deal with it. If you want safe space, where big bad griefer cant catch you, best option is to play games without pvp at all, like WOW or other bullshit carebear mmo, where only pvp is when two players mutually negotiate the terms and conditions of their duel, then one proposes and other accepts the invitation to throw down, after which they bid good day to each other and go on on their happy life fishing or weaving or knitting or whatever the f they do in hello kitty island adventure... What kind of system do you have in mind, that doesnt forbid or limit actions of player, while also punishing griefing? also what do you consider griefing? You scary bro. If you do not consent it is not player vs player. It is player vs victim. Your attitude is exactly why open world/non consensual pvp always fails or becomes so toxic only the bad guys are left running around whacking each other for no reason. I can tell from your response you know very little about this game. 1. This is an open world game that will have open world pvp. If you create a character and log into the world, you are consenting to pvp. There are no victims. 2. Why do the carebears always think they know why open world pvp games fail? If they don't play them, how would they know... If they do, then they are consensual participants in said pvp and it must not be as bad as they think it is. 3. Why do the carebears always relate people participating in open world pvp as the "bad guys". There are plenty of reasons to engage in open world pvp with people that are for the betterment of the game and community. Don't like griefers? Make it your mission to kill them and help the little guys. 1. So I can get murdered while walking down the street, by your thinking I consented to it when I left the house...hmmm, never want to met you in a dark ally. i see no difference with your scenario and mine. It may be a morals thing, not sure. 2. I have played plenty of open world pvp games and am currently playing Aion after a 4 year hiatus, when I quit their were at least 15 NA servers, their is now two. I wounder why? It is a full open world/non consensual pvp game. I also play Eve online, I have no aversion to pvp as long as all parties agree. You can ruin my play session by murdering me, but i have no way to ruin yours. Non consensual pvp is one sided enjoyment. 3. Their is no good reason to ruin another persons play time. "Oh no, somebody is picking my flowers I must murder him", really. If they mean that much to you if you, ask nicely I will go pick flowers some place else, and apologize for walking thru your garden, jeez just be civil, seems to be lacking now a days. I know your type you will not fight another person who is willing, you just want soft targets to harvest their tears, (that is a bad person). 1. This is a video game get a grip on reality. Very large difference between a video game and real life murder how delusional are you? 2. Aion is 12 years old at this point and was never very good to begin with. EVE on the other hand is one of the longest running and most succesful MMORPGs with what you have termed "Non-consensual PvP" I'm sure you have whined about that game too and demanded it be changed while continuing to play for the last 18 years or whatever long it's been. 3. Whats not fun for thee is fun for me. You aren't the fun police determining how other people have fun. The world is not centered around you. 1. So you do not think that that character on screen is not a representation of you, it is after all controlled by your brain. I argue that being murdered in game elicits the same or similar emotional reactions from the victim as being a victim of an IRL crime. The reality is, whether you want to admit it or not that avatar is controled by a real person with the emotions, feelings, and psychology and react the same whether they are physically there or thousand of miles away sitting in front of a monitor. Your thinking is simply an attempt by you to justify your actions and disconnect form the reality of what you just did.
Voidwalkers wrote: » jubilum wrote: » 2. I have played plenty of open world pvp games and am currently playing Aion after a 4 year hiatus, when I quit their were at least 15 NA servers, their is now two. I wounder why? It is a full open world/non consensual pvp game. I also play Eve online, I have no aversion to pvp as long as all parties agree. You can ruin my play session by murdering me, but i have no way to ruin yours. Non consensual pvp is one sided enjoyment. 3. Their is no good reason to ruin another persons play time. "Oh no, somebody is picking my flowers I must murder him", really. If they mean that much to you if you, ask nicely I will go pick flowers some place else, and apologize for walking thru your garden, jeez just be civil, seems to be lacking now a days. I know your type you will not fight another person who is willing, you just want soft targets to harvest their tears, (that is a bad person). I consider myself a casual player, and hates getting murdered in game too, but then ... 2. Since you mentioned Eve. I'd argue that gankers, although annoying, has a role in Eve that their mere presence upholds Eve's "risk vs reward" theme, and also a role in keeping the economy in balance. Imagine if you must be flagged in order to be attacked in Eve. Without the risk of being ganked, everyone would just fly as blingy as they could, and the whole server would be doing supercarrier ratting all day long. And there'll be an uncontrollable runaway inflation. Btw I hate the cloaky campers even more, but that's a different story. 3. To some people there IS fun in ruining others' experiences. The greater the pain inflicted, the more they enjoy it. Why do you think Eve displays the isk-value of each kill mail you receive? I've come to accept the existence of gankers as a fact, and view them like some kind of natural disaster. As long as the game has mechanics to ... - limit their killing spree to some degree, (in Ashes's case, corruption and kill count and negative exp etc.) - allow me to take precautions, or evade them, (In Ashes's case, the world is huge, supposedly there's always somewhere else you can go - unlike some cases in Eve where you're confined to your corp's territory of a few systems) - allow me to defend myself, (Not having separate PvP & PvE gear is a good start, which Ashes is going for) ... without me having to go to extreme lengths (e.g. stay logged out for hours), and that I don't suffer a debilitating death penalty upon getting ganked, then that's acceptable. I've come to see mmorpg worlds as a savanna ecosystem - there's vegetation (contents), there're herbivores (pure PvEers), carnivores (PvPers and gankers), and some other players to fill in the various niches in the system. There needs to be a balance - the system must not be dominated by any one kind of player, or it will collapse and you end up with a deserted server. e.g. Remove all the carnivores, and you could end up with an explosion of herbivore population, which leads to overgrazing (overcrowding at farming spots, resource & mob spawn areas, ppl occupying resource nodes with automated scripts for hours & on and you have no way to chase them away coz you can't kill them, etc. etc. etc.), and that's a problem too.
jubilum wrote: » 2. I have played plenty of open world pvp games and am currently playing Aion after a 4 year hiatus, when I quit their were at least 15 NA servers, their is now two. I wounder why? It is a full open world/non consensual pvp game. I also play Eve online, I have no aversion to pvp as long as all parties agree. You can ruin my play session by murdering me, but i have no way to ruin yours. Non consensual pvp is one sided enjoyment. 3. Their is no good reason to ruin another persons play time. "Oh no, somebody is picking my flowers I must murder him", really. If they mean that much to you if you, ask nicely I will go pick flowers some place else, and apologize for walking thru your garden, jeez just be civil, seems to be lacking now a days. I know your type you will not fight another person who is willing, you just want soft targets to harvest their tears, (that is a bad person).
CaptnChuck wrote: » Bricktop wrote: » There are plenty of highly successful games that are open world PvP. Are you done dreaming yet @Bricktop ? There is not a single open world PvP game that is successful right now. All of them are dead, and for good reason. You might wanna stop pulling facts out of your behind. I understand that that's where your replies come from, but don't pull out false facts from there as well .
Bricktop wrote: » There are plenty of highly successful games that are open world PvP.
jubilum wrote: » Bricktop wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Xyls wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right? I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that. Ofcourse it occured, so what? but it was punishable and it wasn't often and you had ways to deal with it. If you want safe space, where big bad griefer cant catch you, best option is to play games without pvp at all, like WOW or other bullshit carebear mmo, where only pvp is when two players mutually negotiate the terms and conditions of their duel, then one proposes and other accepts the invitation to throw down, after which they bid good day to each other and go on on their happy life fishing or weaving or knitting or whatever the f they do in hello kitty island adventure... What kind of system do you have in mind, that doesnt forbid or limit actions of player, while also punishing griefing? also what do you consider griefing? You scary bro. If you do not consent it is not player vs player. It is player vs victim. Your attitude is exactly why open world/non consensual pvp always fails or becomes so toxic only the bad guys are left running around whacking each other for no reason. I can tell from your response you know very little about this game. 1. This is an open world game that will have open world pvp. If you create a character and log into the world, you are consenting to pvp. There are no victims. 2. Why do the carebears always think they know why open world pvp games fail? If they don't play them, how would they know... If they do, then they are consensual participants in said pvp and it must not be as bad as they think it is. 3. Why do the carebears always relate people participating in open world pvp as the "bad guys". There are plenty of reasons to engage in open world pvp with people that are for the betterment of the game and community. Don't like griefers? Make it your mission to kill them and help the little guys. 1. So I can get murdered while walking down the street, by your thinking I consented to it when I left the house...hmmm, never want to met you in a dark ally. i see no difference with your scenario and mine. It may be a morals thing, not sure. 2. I have played plenty of open world pvp games and am currently playing Aion after a 4 year hiatus, when I quit their were at least 15 NA servers, their is now two. I wounder why? It is a full open world/non consensual pvp game. I also play Eve online, I have no aversion to pvp as long as all parties agree. You can ruin my play session by murdering me, but i have no way to ruin yours. Non consensual pvp is one sided enjoyment. 3. Their is no good reason to ruin another persons play time. "Oh no, somebody is picking my flowers I must murder him", really. If they mean that much to you if you, ask nicely I will go pick flowers some place else, and apologize for walking thru your garden, jeez just be civil, seems to be lacking now a days. I know your type you will not fight another person who is willing, you just want soft targets to harvest their tears, (that is a bad person). 1. This is a video game get a grip on reality. Very large difference between a video game and real life murder how delusional are you? 2. Aion is 12 years old at this point and was never very good to begin with. EVE on the other hand is one of the longest running and most succesful MMORPGs with what you have termed "Non-consensual PvP" I'm sure you have whined about that game too and demanded it be changed while continuing to play for the last 18 years or whatever long it's been. 3. Whats not fun for thee is fun for me. You aren't the fun police determining how other people have fun. The world is not centered around you. 1. So you do not think that that character on screen is not a representation of you, it is after all controlled by your brain. I argue that being murdered in game elicits the same or similar emotional reactions from the victim as being a victim of an IRL crime. The reality is, whether you want to admit it or not that avatar is controled by a real person with the emotions, feelings, and psychology and react the same whether they are physically there or thousand of miles away sitting in front of a monitor. Your thinking is simply an attempt by you to justify your actions and disconnect form the reality of what you just did. 2. Aion had potential at one time, but I agree it does suck now. A perfect example of Devs screwing up a game. Eve has many problem, but the PvP is not one of them. PvP drives everything within Eve, there would not be a game without it, I just don't see that as the case in AoC there are just to many other factors driving the game. The main reasons Eve succeeds in what it is, that AoC can not duplicate is having one server forcing everyone into the same sandbox and also the vastness of the universe. My main character in Eve had it's 12 year birthday last week, I just looked at the universe map and in 12 years of playing almost daily I have visited less than 20% of the solar systems and that doesn't even include wormholes, and 80% of those systems I have visited I just pasted thru on my way someplace else. What I am saying is if you don't want to interact with other players in Eve it is possible to find someplace no one else goes. i personally found a dead end system in the first couple months I played that I keep a jump clone in and a few ship, I jump there when I want to get away from the null sec politics and hang out a few days and never see another person enter the system. 3. When you force me to unwillingly participate in your fun, then I do become the "fun police".
jubilum wrote: » Bricktop wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Xyls wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right? I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that. Ofcourse it occured, so what? but it was punishable and it wasn't often and you had ways to deal with it. If you want safe space, where big bad griefer cant catch you, best option is to play games without pvp at all, like WOW or other bullshit carebear mmo, where only pvp is when two players mutually negotiate the terms and conditions of their duel, then one proposes and other accepts the invitation to throw down, after which they bid good day to each other and go on on their happy life fishing or weaving or knitting or whatever the f they do in hello kitty island adventure... What kind of system do you have in mind, that doesnt forbid or limit actions of player, while also punishing griefing? also what do you consider griefing? You scary bro. If you do not consent it is not player vs player. It is player vs victim. Your attitude is exactly why open world/non consensual pvp always fails or becomes so toxic only the bad guys are left running around whacking each other for no reason. I can tell from your response you know very little about this game. 1. This is an open world game that will have open world pvp. If you create a character and log into the world, you are consenting to pvp. There are no victims. 2. Why do the carebears always think they know why open world pvp games fail? If they don't play them, how would they know... If they do, then they are consensual participants in said pvp and it must not be as bad as they think it is. 3. Why do the carebears always relate people participating in open world pvp as the "bad guys". There are plenty of reasons to engage in open world pvp with people that are for the betterment of the game and community. Don't like griefers? Make it your mission to kill them and help the little guys. 1. So I can get murdered while walking down the street, by your thinking I consented to it when I left the house...hmmm, never want to met you in a dark ally. i see no difference with your scenario and mine. It may be a morals thing, not sure. 2. I have played plenty of open world pvp games and am currently playing Aion after a 4 year hiatus, when I quit their were at least 15 NA servers, their is now two. I wounder why? It is a full open world/non consensual pvp game. I also play Eve online, I have no aversion to pvp as long as all parties agree. You can ruin my play session by murdering me, but i have no way to ruin yours. Non consensual pvp is one sided enjoyment. 3. Their is no good reason to ruin another persons play time. "Oh no, somebody is picking my flowers I must murder him", really. If they mean that much to you if you, ask nicely I will go pick flowers some place else, and apologize for walking thru your garden, jeez just be civil, seems to be lacking now a days. I know your type you will not fight another person who is willing, you just want soft targets to harvest their tears, (that is a bad person). 1. This is a video game get a grip on reality. Very large difference between a video game and real life murder how delusional are you? 2. Aion is 12 years old at this point and was never very good to begin with. EVE on the other hand is one of the longest running and most succesful MMORPGs with what you have termed "Non-consensual PvP" I'm sure you have whined about that game too and demanded it be changed while continuing to play for the last 18 years or whatever long it's been. 3. Whats not fun for thee is fun for me. You aren't the fun police determining how other people have fun. The world is not centered around you. 1. So you do not think that that character on screen is not a representation of you, it is after all controlled by your brain. 2. I don't play games for fun. I work for Media Matters. Thought policing is my day job. 3. When you force me to unwillingly participate in your fun, then I do become the "fun police".
Dolyem wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Bricktop wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Xyls wrote: » jubilum wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » Xyls wrote: » CaptnChuck wrote: » @Xyls So let me get this straight. You want players to rely on OTHER people to come and help them against the griefer? How exactly are they going to HELP you? That guy isn't killing you, he is just attacking you. Why would somebody else come and kill him for you, just to gain corruption? Your first 2 points does not solve the problem. None of them can help you, and even if they could, you shouldn't let counter measures for griefing rely on player help, as that is an inconsistent variable. As for your third one, yes you could fight back. But the problem is, that guy is 10 levels above you. So whilst you may damage him, it won't be by much. Also, now if he kills you, he won't gain corruption and he gains a portion of your loot as well. You also get re-spawned at a re-spawn point, which may be far away from where you were questing. So its going to take you a long time to get back there. He was griefing you and now he got rewarded for it because you fought back. So there goes your third point as well. Oh my bad, I didn't know you didn't know how the flagging system works. So when a player attacks a non-combatant (green) or combatant (purple), they become a combatant (purple). A player only becomes corrupted (red) when they kill a non-combatant (green). So when the lvl 20 attacks the lvl 10, the lvl 20 becomes purple. If someone comes along to help the lvl 10 kill the lvl 20, they will only become purple because the lvl 20 is purple, not green. They solve the problem in a MMO that requires players to socialize and work together... like AoC. But we don't know if the other guy gains corruption or not. If he does then why would he help you? The lvl20 guy didn't attack him he just attacked the lvl10 guy. Also you miss my point. Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it even if players are not online to help you at that time. Yes we do know. Attacking and killing a combatant does not give you corruption. Only killing a non-combatant does. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/PvP#/media/File:pvp_flagging_diagram.png I am not missing your point, your point just isn't valid in an mmorpg that heavily promotes community interaction and guilds. I'll say it again. You missed my point @Xyls . Relying on other people to solve Griefing isn't a good idea. There should be systems in place that solve it, even if players are not online/willing to help you at that time. Also, not everyone has friends and guilds when they start playing a game. So its foolish to rely on player help to solve things like griefing; especially when it can have a huge negative impact on a new player's experience. I don't know what to tell you, in these types of games (sandbox, sand-park) with player created content, relying on others is the ultimate solution and is the best solution. The corruption system is the back up for when you can't get others. Relying on other players for in game systems is the way to go. But relying on other players to solve things that can impact a player's fundamental experience with the game isn't the way to go. The reason why I say that is because it isn't as consistent or as efficient as a pre-built system that solves such kinds of problems. Players are an inconsistent variable. When it comes to important things like griefing, you cannot rely on such an inconsistent variable to solve the problem. Not EVERYTHING has to be connected to players. Its like asking players to punish those that get reported, instead of having them be punished by Intrepid themselves. Whilst your idea does provide a social element to the game, it shouldn't be the main way to solve griefing. You would be correct if this game was a straight theme-park like WoW, but it isn't. Jesus. Stop relating EVERYTHING with WoW. Griefing should be punished, whether its in AoC or if its in WoW. All I'm saying is that it should be CONSISTENTLY punished, something that "player help" cannot do. I dont agree that greefing should be punished in sense of some system that forbids griefing, it just should have cencequences, and lineage system did good job at that, it didnt limit people, but made made griefing very punishing without limiting them, so you could do it, but it was not worth it Lmao. Yea sure, no low level griefing ever occured in L2. The karma system was more than enough to prevent that right? I never said that griefing should be forbidden. All I said is that players who grief others should face severe in-game consequences. These consequences cannot be consistently imposed upon griefers by other players. Only a built in system can do that. Ofcourse it occured, so what? but it was punishable and it wasn't often and you had ways to deal with it. If you want safe space, where big bad griefer cant catch you, best option is to play games without pvp at all, like WOW or other bullshit carebear mmo, where only pvp is when two players mutually negotiate the terms and conditions of their duel, then one proposes and other accepts the invitation to throw down, after which they bid good day to each other and go on on their happy life fishing or weaving or knitting or whatever the f they do in hello kitty island adventure... What kind of system do you have in mind, that doesnt forbid or limit actions of player, while also punishing griefing? also what do you consider griefing? You scary bro. If you do not consent it is not player vs player. It is player vs victim. Your attitude is exactly why open world/non consensual pvp always fails or becomes so toxic only the bad guys are left running around whacking each other for no reason. I can tell from your response you know very little about this game. 1. This is an open world game that will have open world pvp. If you create a character and log into the world, you are consenting to pvp. There are no victims. 2. Why do the carebears always think they know why open world pvp games fail? If they don't play them, how would they know... If they do, then they are consensual participants in said pvp and it must not be as bad as they think it is. 3. Why do the carebears always relate people participating in open world pvp as the "bad guys". There are plenty of reasons to engage in open world pvp with people that are for the betterment of the game and community. Don't like griefers? Make it your mission to kill them and help the little guys. 1. So I can get murdered while walking down the street, by your thinking I consented to it when I left the house...hmmm, never want to met you in a dark ally. i see no difference with your scenario and mine. It may be a morals thing, not sure. 2. I have played plenty of open world pvp games and am currently playing Aion after a 4 year hiatus, when I quit their were at least 15 NA servers, their is now two. I wounder why? It is a full open world/non consensual pvp game. I also play Eve online, I have no aversion to pvp as long as all parties agree. You can ruin my play session by murdering me, but i have no way to ruin yours. Non consensual pvp is one sided enjoyment. 3. Their is no good reason to ruin another persons play time. "Oh no, somebody is picking my flowers I must murder him", really. If they mean that much to you if you, ask nicely I will go pick flowers some place else, and apologize for walking thru your garden, jeez just be civil, seems to be lacking now a days. I know your type you will not fight another person who is willing, you just want soft targets to harvest their tears, (that is a bad person). 1. This is a video game get a grip on reality. Very large difference between a video game and real life murder how delusional are you? 2. Aion is 12 years old at this point and was never very good to begin with. EVE on the other hand is one of the longest running and most succesful MMORPGs with what you have termed "Non-consensual PvP" I'm sure you have whined about that game too and demanded it be changed while continuing to play for the last 18 years or whatever long it's been. 3. Whats not fun for thee is fun for me. You aren't the fun police determining how other people have fun. The world is not centered around you. 1. So you do not think that that character on screen is not a representation of you, it is after all controlled by your brain. I argue that being murdered in game elicits the same or similar emotional reactions from the victim as being a victim of an IRL crime. The reality is, whether you want to admit it or not that avatar is controled by a real person with the emotions, feelings, and psychology and react the same whether they are physically there or thousand of miles away sitting in front of a monitor. Your thinking is simply an attempt by you to justify your actions and disconnect form the reality of what you just did. 2. Aion had potential at one time, but I agree it does suck now. A perfect example of Devs screwing up a game. Eve has many problem, but the PvP is not one of them. PvP drives everything within Eve, there would not be a game without it, I just don't see that as the case in AoC there are just to many other factors driving the game. The main reasons Eve succeeds in what it is, that AoC can not duplicate is having one server forcing everyone into the same sandbox and also the vastness of the universe. My main character in Eve had it's 12 year birthday last week, I just looked at the universe map and in 12 years of playing almost daily I have visited less than 20% of the solar systems and that doesn't even include wormholes, and 80% of those systems I have visited I just pasted thru on my way someplace else. What I am saying is if you don't want to interact with other players in Eve it is possible to find someplace no one else goes. i personally found a dead end system in the first couple months I played that I keep a jump clone in and a few ship, I jump there when I want to get away from the null sec politics and hang out a few days and never see another person enter the system. 3. When you force me to unwillingly participate in your fun, then I do become the "fun police". 1. No, I am not reacting to my character dying as if I or a loved one was dying. Its kind of like when I type "LOL". On the screen it is laughing out loud...but in reality I just make a little burst of air come out of my nose and move on. 2. EVE is one giant server yes, and AoC is going to be several very large servers. That being said, with several servers on large maps(maps that are 3 times larger than classic WoW azeroth) , your player base will be spread out relatively well with the exception of streamer servers and 1 or 2 of the "Main" servers that people may flock to for guilds and what not. There will almost be a guarantee that there will be some low pop servers depending on how many they release at launch, taking care of your worries of having to interact with people in a online social game. And with that being said, you never want empty zones in an MMO, the entire point of the games design is being social. It isn't a single player story, it is a multi-player story, and you can argue against that as much as you want but all you get at that point is current retail wow, where you just play a single player game around other players, not with them. 3. "When you force me to unwillingly participate in your fun, then I do become the fun police" Kind of hypocritical seeing as you are literally trying to make everyone change the way an entire game is designed and played just so you can enjoy yourself more? According to you there are plenty of successful "Consensual-pvp" games out there, so go play those and leave this game to the people who enjoy open world pvp, seeing as that is how the developers and creator want it to be and plan to make it that way regardless of what you have to say about it.
CaptnChuck wrote: » @Mojottv I'm talking in the present tense bud. Not about 15 years ago. L2 is dead. There is no open world PvP game that is successful right NOW. Good job missing the point yet again, as usual.
Dolyem wrote: » If you log in to a game with open world pvp knowing that it has said pvp, its consensual. Nobody is forcing you to play the game, you are choosing to participate by playing it. If you want the feature to opt out, go play a game with that option. This game is not that game and wont ever be.
Bricktop wrote: » 1. This is a video game get a grip on reality. Very large difference between a video game and real life murder how delusional are you? 2. Aion is 12 years old at this point and was never very good to begin with. EVE on the other hand is one of the longest running and most succesful MMORPGs with what you have termed "Non-consensual PvP" I'm sure you have whined about that game too and demanded it be changed while continuing to play for the last 18 years or whatever long it's been. 3. Whats not fun for thee is fun for me. You aren't the fun police determining how other people have fun. The world is not centered around you.
Noaani wrote: » @Bricktop Bricktop wrote: » In EvE, you are fairly safe for the most part. While you are technically in a position where someone can attack you almost all the time, the reality is that 90% of your time online you are mostly safe. People can and do play EvE in a way where they do not get attacked for months on end, with the only PvP they participate in being large planned fleet operations. EvE was my main MMO in 2012, and I was only ever involved in PvP on three occasions. So you're the pvp player as you stated on numerous occasions and you're definitely not a carebear, but you only was involved in pvp 3 times on EVE? I mean, your every post is just contradicting yourself... Although, there's some truth to what you said, even when EVE is a highly pvp game, you can avoid pvp, and most of the time you're fairly safe. Such as in L2, and sutch as will be AOC with corruption system. Not every time you meet someone, someone will want to kill you. Most of the times, people just keep to themselves, unless theres some sort of dispute.
Bricktop wrote: » In EvE, you are fairly safe for the most part. While you are technically in a position where someone can attack you almost all the time, the reality is that 90% of your time online you are mostly safe. People can and do play EvE in a way where they do not get attacked for months on end, with the only PvP they participate in being large planned fleet operations. EvE was my main MMO in 2012, and I was only ever involved in PvP on three occasions.
Mojottv wrote: » So you're the pvp player as you stated on numerous occasions and you're definitely not a carebear, but you only was involved in pvp 3 times on EVE? I mean, your every post is just contradicting yourself... Although, there's some truth to what you said, even when EVE is a highly pvp game, you can avoid pvp, and most of the time you're fairly safe. Such as in L2, and sutch as will be AOC with corruption system. Not every time you meet someone, someone will want to kill you. Most of the times, people just keep to themselves, unless theres some sort of dispute.
Noaani wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » So you're the pvp player as you stated on numerous occasions and you're definitely not a carebear, but you only was involved in pvp 3 times on EVE? I mean, your every post is just contradicting yourself... Although, there's some truth to what you said, even when EVE is a highly pvp game, you can avoid pvp, and most of the time you're fairly safe. Such as in L2, and sutch as will be AOC with corruption system. Not every time you meet someone, someone will want to kill you. Most of the times, people just keep to themselves, unless theres some sort of dispute. I'm also a top end PvE player and yet I spent 5 years in Archeage - a game without top end PvE. People play different games and get different things out of them - I assume this isn't news to you. If you go to a new game and expect to get exactly the same out of it as you got from a previous game, you will always be disappointed. This is essentially why I was disapointed with Rift - I expected it to be a new EQ2 for me. It wasn't. I went from Rift to EvE, knowing that there was no way I could expect to get that same type of game play, and enjoyed the game thoroughly. That said, the corperation I was in while playing EvE spent the year essentially preparing. We were not avoiding PvP, we were getting ready for PvP. The big difference with EvE and Ashes in this regard is that when you are in an area you control, you can essentially relax in EvE. In Ashes, you will always have to be on the lookout. While not everyone will attack you on sight, everyone could and you need to be ready. If nothing else, that kind of thing is tiring.
Mojottv wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » So you're the pvp player as you stated on numerous occasions and you're definitely not a carebear, but you only was involved in pvp 3 times on EVE? I mean, your every post is just contradicting yourself... Although, there's some truth to what you said, even when EVE is a highly pvp game, you can avoid pvp, and most of the time you're fairly safe. Such as in L2, and sutch as will be AOC with corruption system. Not every time you meet someone, someone will want to kill you. Most of the times, people just keep to themselves, unless theres some sort of dispute. I'm also a top end PvE player and yet I spent 5 years in Archeage - a game without top end PvE. People play different games and get different things out of them - I assume this isn't news to you. If you go to a new game and expect to get exactly the same out of it as you got from a previous game, you will always be disappointed. This is essentially why I was disapointed with Rift - I expected it to be a new EQ2 for me. It wasn't. I went from Rift to EvE, knowing that there was no way I could expect to get that same type of game play, and enjoyed the game thoroughly. That said, the corperation I was in while playing EvE spent the year essentially preparing. We were not avoiding PvP, we were getting ready for PvP. The big difference with EvE and Ashes in this regard is that when you are in an area you control, you can essentially relax in EvE. In Ashes, you will always have to be on the lookout. While not everyone will attack you on sight, everyone could and you need to be ready. If nothing else, that kind of thing is tiring. Guess you're afraid to go outside as well, as its tiring, because anyone can choose to attack you?
AxelBlaze wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Mojottv wrote: » So you're the pvp player as you stated on numerous occasions and you're definitely not a carebear, but you only was involved in pvp 3 times on EVE? I mean, your every post is just contradicting yourself... Although, there's some truth to what you said, even when EVE is a highly pvp game, you can avoid pvp, and most of the time you're fairly safe. Such as in L2, and sutch as will be AOC with corruption system. Not every time you meet someone, someone will want to kill you. Most of the times, people just keep to themselves, unless theres some sort of dispute. I'm also a top end PvE player and yet I spent 5 years in Archeage - a game without top end PvE. People play different games and get different things out of them - I assume this isn't news to you. If you go to a new game and expect to get exactly the same out of it as you got from a previous game, you will always be disappointed. This is essentially why I was disapointed with Rift - I expected it to be a new EQ2 for me. It wasn't. I went from Rift to EvE, knowing that there was no way I could expect to get that same type of game play, and enjoyed the game thoroughly. That said, the corperation I was in while playing EvE spent the year essentially preparing. We were not avoiding PvP, we were getting ready for PvP. The big difference with EvE and Ashes in this regard is that when you are in an area you control, you can essentially relax in EvE. In Ashes, you will always have to be on the lookout. While not everyone will attack you on sight, everyone could and you need to be ready. If nothing else, that kind of thing is tiring. Guess you're afraid to go outside as well, as its tiring, because anyone can choose to attack you? The novelty wears off. Its cool at first, but eventually it will just become tiring.
