Open world raids

There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids.

Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people?

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

bigepeen

cleansingtotem wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

I responded to a baseless assumption with a baseless assumption. Seems fair to me.

It wasn't baseless, I provided my reasoning.

You disagreeing with it does not mean it is baseless.

The thing is, you are only seeing it from your perspective. People who are obsessed with instanced PvE will think that AoC "needs" it to be more relevant. The game itself does not "need" it just because a small minority of players (for whom the game isn't designed for in the first place) say they "need" it, just in the same way that FF14 doesn't need PvP to be successful. You have no proof that AoC needs it in order to be successful.

Mind linking me all the successful PVP mmo's?

EVE online is pretty successful. There are other successful ones, but they aren't as big as the current themepark MMOs.

The reason for this being the case is that all the big AAA studios are just trying to emulate the success of WoW, and don't want to take a risk in innovating something that takes a ton of investment to make (MMOs are expensive). And then, on top of that, promising PvX/PvP MMOs are killed off before they even launch because players are under the same impression and whine on the forums about it being different than WoW. Others are indie devs that fail due to not being able to create a good quality product compared to AAA. And others fail due to implementing P2W and taking the quick, cash out option over longevity.

Tyrantor

Noaani wrote: »

If I am wrong, feel free to tell me how

You simply are creating a narrative to try and justify a means to your posts. Hence attacking my ability to comprehend anything PvE related. I would wager good money I've spend more hours in MMOs than you in my life. in addition to advocating so strongly for instanced content I now know you probably spend most of your time playing Disney Princess games.

Now that we've established your gaming pedigree I suppose it's safe to also state for a fact you have no concept of player vs player games, you clearly haven't experienced this at a novice level even. This means you don't understand the basics of pvp and what someone may determine as a legitimate reason to attack another player. You know this big gap you have in your gaming history that makes it impossible for you to understand simple pvp concepts. This is why you're like the last person here posting for your own made up reality where the rest of us are just dumb button mashers.

It's insulting that you use the word PvP so frequently in your posts when its obvious you've never experienced it and can't understand it.

But hey you know... if I"m wrong feel free...... lol do tell.

maouw

@Noaani
Re: instances.
You are misunderstanding why that person is questioning being able to farm instances.

I know you conditioned your argument with "instance the drops without causing deflation" but that statement is exactly what is being questioned.

An item dropped once per week is FAR more valuable, impressive and desireable than if it dropped ten times per week <

this drop in value is the problem of instancing and a large part of why people are pushing for open-world content - it preserves and value of the item in the greater economy. This is what that person was questioning - because the reality is that PvX is more challenging than PvE and therefore deserves better drops.

As I understand it, you want high-difficulty instanced PvE (without PvP) content. I think that's ok, but it's not ok to get endgame equips from that.

Please understand: I'm not saying "ALL raids will be PvX", what I'm saying is that PvX raids will be prioritized over PvE raids, and it's not useful to critique their PvE raids when we haven't even seen a PvX raid yet.

Noaani

maouw wrote: »

@Noaani
Re: instances.
You are misunderstanding why that person is questioning being able to farm instances.

I know you conditioned your argument with "instance the drops without causing deflation" but that statement is exactly what is being questioned.

An item dropped once per week is FAR more valuable, impressive and desireable than if it dropped ten times per week <
this drop in value is the problem of instancing and a large part of why people are pushing for open-world content - it preserves and value of the item in the greater economy. This is what that person was questioning - because the reality is that PvX is more challenging than PvE and therefore deserves better drops.

As I understand it, you want high-difficulty instanced PvE (without PvP) content. I think that's ok, but it's not ok to get endgame equips from that.

Please understand: I'm not saying "ALL raids will be PvX", what I'm saying is that PvX raids will be prioritized over PvE raids, and it's not useful to critique their PvE raids when we haven't even seen a PvX raid yet.

This is perhaps the 10th time I have said this - I expect the best items in the game to be crafted from materials that are dropped by open world raid mobs - specifically due to the rarity of these mobs.

What you are saying in this post isn't just something I agree with, it is literally what I have been saying this whole thread.

Instanced raids should drop top end loot, but not the absolute best - there should be a definitive step up in gear going from instanced to open world content.

Noaani

Tyrantor wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

If I am wrong, feel free to tell me how

You simply are creating a narrative to try and justify a means to your posts. Hence attacking my ability to comprehend anything PvE related. I would wager good money I've spend more hours in MMOs than you in my life. in addition to advocating so strongly for instanced content I now know you probably spend most of your time playing Disney Princess games.

Now that we've established your gaming pedigree I suppose it's safe to also state for a fact you have no concept of player vs player games, you clearly haven't experienced this at a novice level even. This means you don't understand the basics of pvp and what someone may determine as a legitimate reason to attack another player. You know this big gap you have in your gaming history that makes it impossible for you to understand simple pvp concepts. This is why you're like the last person here posting for your own made up reality where the rest of us are just dumb button mashers.

It's insulting that you use the word PvP so frequently in your posts when its obvious you've never experienced it and can't understand it.

But hey you know... if I"m wrong feel free...... lol do tell.

As you know, I spent about 5 years in Archeage, most of it as a pirate in Auroria.

That is about as PvP as games get. If you doubt this, feel free to ask me literally any question in regards to PvP, and I will answer as it pertains to that game.

If I asked you the to do the same, but for PvE, which game is it you would be using for perspective to answer from?

Tragnar

I have to admit I am against open world bosses, because all of my experience comes from soulless easy fights and the frustration from wipes by jerks that were triggering anti zerg wipe mechanics.

And another thing that I totally disagree with Noaani is that best materials should come only from the hardest raid challenge - doesn't matter if it is only 1 spawn in the world protected via barriers or heavy punishment through corruption or in an instance.

I don't mind instances, but I am not married to them and if open world can function with endgame in a way that doesnt create more frustration than happiness then I am happy to try that out.

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

And another thing that I totally disagree with Noaani is that best materials should come only from the hardest raid challenge - doesn't matter if it is only 1 spawn in the world protected via barriers or heavy punishment through corruption or in an instance.

This is a debate that is ever-present in games that have both top end instances and top end open encounters.

There is no single answer that will always fit every situation, and it essentially comes down to the weight put on rarity vs difficulty.

To be clear, there *IS* a weighting here. If an open encounter is stupid easy, the loot from it shouldn't automatically be better than loot from a difficult instance. However, if that instanced encounter was also about as easy as the open world encounter, then the open world encounter absolutely should offer much better rewards.

The expectation of PvP should also be a factor in this, though I wouldn't want to suggest a way in which that can be achieved. This is why loot allocation in an MMO is literally the only role I pity.

Tragnar

Increasing open world raid rewards because PvP could happen is in my opinion totally baseless suggestion, because you automatically can loot a portion of what the player has in his inventory when you kill him.

PvP groups that fight players in open world are basically bandits - even more in Ashes where they literally take a portion of their stuff. Sure those bandits might be most suited for fighting others, but still they are not the people that go to kill mythical beasts.

It is so hard to make up reasons to justify PvP progression path that is not just looting other people stuff

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

Increasing open world raid rewards because PvP could happen is in my opinion totally baseless suggestion, because you automatically can loot a portion of what the player has in his inventory when you kill him.

This is why I pity whoever has to work out the loot tables in a game like Ashes.

The theory - agree with it or not - is that you are not rewarding those bandits you talk about. You are rewarding the people taking on the encounter and those bandits.

Again, there is no single answer to loot tables - it is more an art than a science.

Tyrantor

Noaani wrote: »

[
As you know, I spent about 5 years in Archeage, most of it as a pirate in Auroria.

That is about as PvP as games get. If you doubt this, feel free to ask me literally any question in regards to PvP, and I will answer as it pertains to that game.

If I asked you the to do the same, but for PvE, which game is it you would be using for perspective to answer from?

Playing a game that has PvP and PvPing are two different things. In this thread you've admitted to "farming" trees and something else for 18 months. You've also admitted that and I quote "Very Very" few people attacked you. To me it sounds like you were likely isolated in some remote area with very little PvP and solo. I could be wrong so why don't you do us the solid and tell us more. For example, what guild were you in? Do you have any PvP videos? What was the most significant PvP engagement you were involved in?

To answer your question: EQ, WoW and Rift.

Noaani

Tyrantor wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

[
As you know, I spent about 5 years in Archeage, most of it as a pirate in Auroria.

That is about as PvP as games get. If you doubt this, feel free to ask me literally any question in regards to PvP, and I will answer as it pertains to that game.

If I asked you the to do the same, but for PvE, which game is it you would be using for perspective to answer from?

Playing a game that has PvP and PvPing are two different things. In this thread you've admitted to "farming" trees and something else for 18 months. You've also admitted that and I quote "Very Very" few people attacked you. To me it sounds like you were likely isolated in some remote area with very little PvP and solo. I could be wrong so why don't you do us the solid and tell us more. For example, what guild were you in? Do you have any PvP videos? What was the most significant PvP engagement you were involved in?

To answer your question: EQ, WoW and Rift.

Few people attacked me.

That doesn't mean I didn't attack many.

As I said, I used to come second place (of three) in a faction based PvP contest, while being the only person in my faction.

Also, Auroria housing didn't have remote areas, and if you wanted to farm the trees and braziers as I said I was doing, that meant actively going out, on a slow vehicle, looking for scarce resources that many others were also looking for. The basics of this are all very easy to look up, and for someone claiming to understand PvP, it should be fairly easy to follow along.

It seems you are not even as well versed in PvP as I would like to think, let alone PvE.

If you have indeed played EQ, that game in itself should tell you the value of instancing. Unless, of course, you were not active in top end content.

Since you claim to have played it, and are against instancing so much, please explain to me how you think instancing in EQ is bad.

Tyrantor

You've left off several key questions. What guild were you in? What are one or multiple significant PvP encounters worth discussing? Any videos you can link or PM me that show you doing PvP solo or in a group even?

You were the only person in your faction, in a 3 faction game? What does that even look like from a game or server population stand point. This seems very confusing to me.

From what you're describing it sounds like there was very little actual pvp in general? 2nd place doesn't mean much if 3rd place didn't participate, this would mean any number greater than 0 or negative would be > 3rd place.

Anyway it's ok if you want to keep telling yourself you're a PvP player this response more or less proves you're not outside of necessity.

I agree in a game like EQ instancing was important, however this is not EQ so the parallels between the games have no relevance and just because it was important in some games it's not going to be important in all games.

Noaani

Tyrantor wrote: »

You've left off several key questions. What guild were you in? What are one or multiple significant PvP encounters worth discussing? Any videos you can link or PM me that show you doing PvP solo or in a group even?

You were the only person in your faction, in a 3 faction game? What does that even look like from a game or server population stand point. This seems very confusing to me.

From what you're describing it sounds like there was very little actual pvp in general? 2nd place doesn't mean much if 3rd place didn't participate, this would mean any number greater than 0 or negative would be > 3rd place.

So, you have literally no idea about Archeage at all then. I had assumed that as a PvP player, you would have played the only PvP MMO that came out in a 6 or 7 year window there. Obviously not.

MM was always well represented from every faction.

What guild I was in is pointless when I was the only player in my faction - clearly I was also the only player in my guild while a pirate.

Why would I record videos of gameplay? The very notion of that seems foreign to me.

If I was someone that avoided PvP where possible, I wouldn't have opted to leave my faction, consisting of around 65% of players on the server, to literally be my own faction. I did that to invite PvP, the fact that others learned that attacking me was a bad idea is not my fault - well, maybe it is.

As to your point about EQ,at least now we have agreed that instancing is not always bad - this is progress. The fact that EQ maintained a more vibrant world than most modern MMO's for many years after introducing instancing is something you should perhaps keep in mind.

Now, here is a question for you. Do you believe that specifically in Ashes, where all items and materials will be generated via PvE, and then be subject to loss/unwilling reassignment via PvP, that the more vibrant in general the games PvE scene, the more vibrant in general the PvP scene will be?

This is very much a yes/no question. While I am sure you will want to expand on your answer, rest assured your answer will be reduced down to one of those two words, and a follow up question will be asked where you can expand all you like.

Tyrantor

You've proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt you've got no knowledge of how PvP is going to work in this game model. I'm sorry but being a solo player in what sounds like a dead server its undoubtedly not it.

Noaani

Tyrantor wrote: »

You've proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt you've got no knowledge of how PvP is going to work in this game model. I'm sorry but being a solo player in what sounds like a dead server its undoubtedly not it.

You are not so good at reading.

I did say I spent 5 years playing Archeage, and 18 months of it was as the only pirate in the game.

I didn't say what the other 3 and a half years were doing.

As to knowing how PvP is going to work in this game, I know about as much as you do. You have made some assumptions that go directly against what Steven has said in the past, because you assumed it would be the way it was in L2 - forgetting that Archeage is actually the bigger influence for Ashes.

Also, you didn't answer the question.

Mojottv

Noaani wrote: »

Tyrantor wrote: »

You've proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt you've got no knowledge of how PvP is going to work in this game model. I'm sorry but being a solo player in what sounds like a dead server its undoubtedly not it.

You are not so good at reading.

I did say I spent 5 years playing Archeage, and 18 months of it was as the only pirate in the game.

I didn't say what the other 3 and a half years were doing.

As to knowing how PvP is going to work in this game, I know about as much as you do. You have made some assumptions that go directly against what Steven has said in the past, because you assumed it would be the way it was in L2 - forgetting that Archeage is actually the bigger influence for Ashes.

Also, you didn't answer the question.

well Corruption system is core pvp system of the game, and its literal copy paste lineage 2 sysytem. which i think is great

Tyrantor

Feel free to wow us with your other 3 years in the game, if the highlight you wanted to feed us is 18 months as "the only pirate" with "very very" few people attacking you. I'm on the edge of my seat.

I barely played L2 and have made no direct reference to it here or in other threads so you're getting me confused with someone else it seems?

If you want to know why I didn't play Archeage it's because it came out 3-4 years after I gave up on the MMO genre - based on your riveting account of PvP in the game i'm fairly happy with the fact I missed it.

To answer your previous question. No..

mcstackerson

I think the differentiation between instances and the open world needs to be more with the type of loot/rewards instead of trying the balance to two with quality.

Similar to Arenas, I think PvE instances should not have gear with maybe a few exceptions and instead focus on other kinds of rewards like the different kinds of gear enhancement items.

Mojottv

Tyrantor wrote: »

Feel free to wow us with your other 3 years in the game, if the highlight you wanted to feed us is 18 months as "the only pirate" with "very very" few people attacking you. I'm on the edge of my seat.

I barely played L2 and have made no direct reference to it here or in other threads so you're getting me confused with someone else it seems?

If you want to know why I didn't play Archeage it's because it came out 3-4 years after I gave up on the MMO genre - based on your riveting account of PvP in the game i'm fairly happy with the fact I missed it.

To answer your previous question. No..

well to be honest archage was quite fun, but p2w and some other stupid choices killed it

Noaani

Tyrantor wrote: »

To answer your previous question. No..

So, if you don't think that PvE drives the PvP in a game where the literal rewards for PvP are generated via PvE, what is it you believe will drive PvP, and what makes you think that driving force will last more than 9 months.

Child Item