Noaani wrote: » I agree. That said, how effective AoE will be on a larger group will likely depend on exactly how collision is set for player characters as much as anything else. As far as I am concerned, caps on total damage or total target numbers are only really necessary in games without collision. As soon as you add collision to the game, the number of targets you can hit (and this the total maximum damage you can deal) is automatically limited by the radius of the AoE. This should be enough to design and balance around.
Bricktop wrote: » Noaani wrote: » I agree. That said, how effective AoE will be on a larger group will likely depend on exactly how collision is set for player characters as much as anything else. As far as I am concerned, caps on total damage or total target numbers are only really necessary in games without collision. As soon as you add collision to the game, the number of targets you can hit (and this the total maximum damage you can deal) is automatically limited by the radius of the AoE. This should be enough to design and balance around. I both agree and disagree with you here on this one @Noaani (Surprise surprise). I think there should be both collision and uncapped AoE. The only acceptable capped bit of AoE in my eyes is the actual built in radius or cone of the ability as you and Margaret mentioned during the dev stream. Anything at all possible to discourage zerging and encourage smaller guilds and/or groups is a good thing in my eyes. Would you agree?
Noaani wrote: » Bricktop wrote: » Noaani wrote: » I agree. That said, how effective AoE will be on a larger group will likely depend on exactly how collision is set for player characters as much as anything else. As far as I am concerned, caps on total damage or total target numbers are only really necessary in games without collision. As soon as you add collision to the game, the number of targets you can hit (and this the total maximum damage you can deal) is automatically limited by the radius of the AoE. This should be enough to design and balance around. I both agree and disagree with you here on this one @Noaani (Surprise surprise). I think there should be both collision and uncapped AoE. The only acceptable capped bit of AoE in my eyes is the actual built in radius or cone of the ability as you and Margaret mentioned during the dev stream. Anything at all possible to discourage zerging and encourage smaller guilds and/or groups is a good thing in my eyes. Would you agree? I'm confused as to which part you are disagreeing with, to be honest. As I said, in a game with collision (this game), there is no need for any limit other than radius. This limit builds in everything the developers would need to balance abilities around.
Bricktop wrote: » my guild members and myself feel that zerg busting will be a very real possibility in group PvP. The type of situation where a coordinated group could kill double or triple, or many more times their numbers in a fight if they use coordinated AoE, coordinated CC, heavy group movement, and positioning for maximum potential damage using terrain such as chokepoints.
Bricktop wrote: » I agree that CC should have diminishing returns in PvP. I am really hoping that CC abilities will last a decently long amount of time in PvP.
Bricktop wrote: » zerged down by quadruple your numbers and being unable to do a single thing about it.
Valic wrote: » Can I just add that I'm surprised there is no berserker class or class that sounds like it could do well against multiple targets at once by itself. In Aion the class "gladiator" had a variety of skills that allowed it to do "ok" in one on one situations but usually got ko'd to heavy magic, good assassins, or anything that could relatively kite... Meanwhile if 4 people approached a gladiator like a zerg, the gladiator could actually come out victorious because the main take of the kit was how it aoe'd multiple times and drained health from each target while knocking them down.
Tacualeon wrote: » Valic wrote: » Can I just add that I'm surprised there is no berserker class or class that sounds like it could do well against multiple targets at once by itself. In Aion the class "gladiator" had a variety of skills that allowed it to do "ok" in one on one situations but usually got ko'd to heavy magic, good assassins, or anything that could relatively kite... Meanwhile if 4 people approached a gladiator like a zerg, the gladiator could actually come out victorious because the main take of the kit was how it aoe'd multiple times and drained health from each target while knocking them down. The role of aoe bodyguard juggernaut has a historical arquetype in real history and in fiction. 800 CE Berrserkers, housecarles, Jarl's bodyguards. They would serve as household bodyguard, aoe bodyguarding with shield and 2H axes. They acted as personal bullies and champions for duels. The berrserker of Stamford Bridge, aoe locked the bridge so his lord could escape. 1000 CE More nordic berrserker as juggernaut bodyguards for the Byzantine Emperor. 1100 CE More aoe control/spacing 1400 Berrserker phylosophy Helmet of "Garde du Corps" of Louis XIII of France Dude had tactical black knight with big greatswords making aoe whirlwind to displace enemies Berrserkers had Dane axes. Big weapons = Aoe deterrance, juggernauts = Awesome
Valic wrote: » Can I just add that I'm surprised there is no berserker class or class that sounds like it could do well against multiple targets at once by itself. In Aion the class "gladiator" had a variety of skills that allowed it to do "ok" in one on one situations but usually got ko'd to heavy magic, good assassins, or anything that could relatively kite... Meanwhile if 4 people approached a gladiator like a zerg, the gladiator could actually come out victorious because the main take of the kit was how it aoe'd multiple times and drained health from each target while knocking them down. What made that interesting was a gladiator could be a force to be reckoned with only when multiple players chose to engage at a time. The kit mainly revolved around aoe's and just a few single target skills. Too many and even a gladiator would be overrun with ranged abilities and damage it can't steal from multiple opponents.. Too few and there wasn't enough health to drain to self sustain the gladiator's attacks. They were a nice asset in pvp wars as they could lead the front charge and immediately CC the crowd without dying right off the bat. The aoe range was pretty big too but it did have a cooldown, you essentially did a spin that hit multiple times, and 3 knocks on the ground and anything that crit from the first spin's 20 hits to the 3 floor smashes, it had a chance to knock down(so it was VERY often). I feel like one of our classes could be something akin to this, maybe tank + fighter or fighter + tank idea. Anti zerg classes are amazing since they lack most solo capability but they're an absolute monster when against the right odds or with a team like most support classes(and yet this was a battle class, not at all support by any means).
Nagash wrote: » who needs magic when you have a huge fuck off sword
uncounted wrote: » I think there should be a variety of AoE abilities some should have a max number of things they can hit some hit everyone in the area. I would also like some abilities to not only have a max range but also a min range so you can not cast them on top of you. Then you can spec you character according to your playstyle. Also something that I don't think it got mentioned is having a cap on how many AoE abilities of the same type can hit you at the same time. For example if you are against a zerg of 100+ people and half of them can use let's say the AoE spell explosion only a limited number of those casts should hit you not everything, it's not fun insta-dieing from a zerg because they spam easy to hit AoE abilities on anything they see moving.
