Rogue Stealth

So in most mmorpgs I tend to mostly play rogues. I like to be able to surprise my opponent and rogues having stealth is just a must have. My opinion on rogues stealth is that true invisibility should be obtainable. I like that at Rank 1 of stealth which you have in the game already is somewhat still visible. Its my hope that at rank 2 you can make your speed or duration longer and keeping the same visual, that being said. I really want to see Rank 3 achieve full invisibility. I know alot of people who hate rogues in other mmos hate the fact that you cant see them. Some of my suggestions to help appease this would be give stealth a duration, for example Stealth last 45secs, and has a 10 second cooldown, or something along those lines. Also I think that only Rogue primary class should be the only ones with Stealth as a skill. I dont want to see every class being able to stealth.

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Scathyr

Inixia wrote: »

Another option is to have the stealth mechanic be skill based in some way, like having to use shadows or having visibility within a certain range or outside of frontal vision. That way they still get the advantage... but only if they don't provoke suspicion and position smartly.

I like this idea. I’ve never even considered the idea of a stealthed target only being partially visible when viewed in a the frontal cone of your character. What a neat concept. This gives both the target of the rogue, and the rogue itself, tools to work with surrounding the stealth skill.

I would add that it would be interesting if there was a certain attribute that contributed to stealth detection. Maybe intelligence (which seems like a primary stat for common targets of those who utilize stealth), wisdom, or an entirely separate stat synonymous with “stealth detection.” Perhaps it’s something you could train, related to your race and its natural abilities to see stealthed/hidden objects, or class specific enhancements. This would be similar to how passive detection might work in Dungeons and Dragons.

Irohnic

Scathyr wrote: »

Inixia wrote: »

Another option is to have the stealth mechanic be skill based in some way, like having to use shadows or having visibility within a certain range or outside of frontal vision. That way they still get the advantage... but only if they don't provoke suspicion and position smartly.

I like this idea. I’ve never even considered the idea of a stealthed target only being partially visible when viewed in a the frontal cone of your character. What a neat concept. This gives both the target of the rogue, and the rogue itself, tools to work with surrounding the stealth skill.

I would add that it would be interesting if there was a certain attribute that contributed to stealth detection. Maybe intelligence (which seems like a primary stat for common targets of those who utilize stealth), wisdom, or an entirely separate stat synonymous with “stealth detection.” Perhaps it’s something you could train, related to your race and its natural abilities to see stealthed/hidden objects, or class specific enhancements. This would be similar to how passive detection might work in Dungeons and Dragons.

the frontal cone is a cool idea but I think it may lead to "twitchy" activity where players are constantly turning around very rapidly wherever they are going to check for stealthies. You see this kind of thing in fps sandbox games like rust where even when a player is looting they never stop moving, they constantly twitch back and forth to make it harder to get sniped, even if there are no known enemies around. If player direction is tied to your mouse players could easily incorporate this sort of rapid checking into their playstyle. In WoW people do this sort of movement in pvp by jumping, spinning, casting a spell in mid air, then turning around again before landing. this is a "skill-type" move that lets you cast spells on targets behind you without ever changing your direction of travel. I think that kind of skill related stuff is fine in combat, but if it became a standard for players anytime they're out in the world it would be very immersion breaking for me. Maybe I overestimate how far people will go to keep an edge in pvp though haha.

Scathyr

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the frontal cone is a cool idea but I think it may lead to "twitchy" activity where players are constantly turning around very rapidly wherever they are going to check for stealthies. You see this kind of thing in fps sandbox games like rust where even when a player is looting they never stop moving, they constantly twitch back and forth to make it harder to get sniped, even if there are no known enemies around. If player direction is tied to your mouse players could easily incorporate this sort of rapid checking into their playstyle. In WoW people do this sort of movement in pvp by jumping, spinning, casting a spell in mid air, then turning around again before landing. this is a "skill-type" move that lets you cast spells on targets behind you without ever changing your direction of travel. I think that kind of skill related stuff is fine in combat, but if it became a standard for players anytime they're out in the world it would be very immersion breaking for me. Maybe I overestimate how far people will go to keep an edge in pvp though haha.

[/quote]

Haha, I suppose you’re right, when you consider the immersion bit. I have a feeling that most players won’t be walking around all the time twitching, expecting a random rogue to gank them. Conversely, I do expect people to become twitchy upon noticing there is something camouflaged around them, or perhaps after having been ganked. But, speaking from an immersion point of view, that makes equally as much sense.

S

Irohnic

Scathyr wrote: »

Haha, I suppose you’re right, when you consider the immersion bit. I have a feeling that most players won’t be walking around all the time twitching, expecting a random rogue to gank them. Conversely, I do expect people to become twitchy upon noticing there is something camouflaged around them, or perhaps after having been ganked. But, speaking from an immersion point of view, that makes equally as much sense.

S

Ya it's hard to predict what players will or won't do. I've played rust with my little bro and he sits there and it's like he's on coke with his fingers never resting, but I play the game like "normal" without all the twitching and still enjoy it and don't feel like it's a huge disadvantage. At the same time jumping around all the time is a pretty standard player behavior in mmo's that is not really an immersive action but doesn't really bother me since I'm used to it.

Scathyr

Irohnic wrote: »

...At the same time jumping around all the time is a pretty standard player behavior in mmo's that is not really an immersive action...

Lol. Big true.

Tragnar

I have a feeling that tuning graphical setting will make stealth useful only to break tab targeting, but to be actually unseen is going to work only against players that are consistently loosing to leveling mobs

daveywavey

What if a Rogue's skills were disabled for 2 seconds as they came out invisibility, as their body morphed back into the visible plane? That way, you'd still keep your mobility benefits, and you'd have to pay attention to your positioning, but it wouldn't be a guaranteed kill-fest every time you hit the "Stealth" button.

*presses Stealth to hide from the incoming backlash*

Tragnar

in other words make stealth useless for attacking and good only for running away. Interesting suggestion

daveywavey

Tragnar wrote: »

in other words make stealth useless for attacking and good only for running away. Interesting suggestion

I wouldn't say "useless". You'd use Stealth to get into a good position, wait until an enemy has walked past you, and then hit them from the back, assassin style.

Tragnar

2s of self incapacitate after cancelling stealth is pretty harmful, in any real situation you would at best want to cancel 2s before you can run to your victim.

I very much rather prefer the any distance visual cues we have now than what you suggest

daveywavey

Tragnar wrote: »

I very much rather prefer the any distance visual cues we have now than what you suggest

Oh yeah, me too. I actually quite like the shimmer thing. I've been killed waaaay too many times by the totally invisible ganky types. Was just brainstorming ways to let them have their invisibility without it being overpowered.

Tragnar

counterplay to invisibility is being tanky enough to not get oneshot - once you survive the burst, rogues should run out of steam to finish you off

DukeDiewalker

Full invisibility is never a good idea for pvp, unless either everyone has access to it (which is no option here) or there is plenty of things that can counter it with EVERYONE having access to it (ESO had reveiling potions and poisons as an example). But this path often leads to people who rely on stealth being even more upset.
Therefore, I really like the devs approach with the "partial invisibility".
I assume tab target skills won't be able to hit someone in stealth while action and AoE skills will, or am I mistaken?

Tragnar

stealth atm is basically only for dropping tab targetting and unless you have bad eyes you will be able to see the stealthed person with barely any problem (if you focus on looking at him that is) - plus in apocalypse there was a skill that granted you passive vision of all stealthed characters for 30s

so I think stealth is just a combat mechanic atm, because people that dont pay attention to their surroundings wont see you even without stealth

easy

lot of paragraphs being typed by people who will not be participating in any pvp that will matter lol

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