Seeing the stealth in the videos makes me truly worried that it will just become player's best interest to change their graphics setup to give the highest contrast for detecting stealthed characters - this is definitely going to bite Intrepid in the a**
True, though it does depend quite on how the stealth works/looks. WoW for example imo has circumvented this quite well whereby there are only 2 states of stealth (1... fully invisible regardless .. 2. Shadowy but clearly visible regardless of settings) .. whereby it simply changes from state 1 to 2 depending on how close someone is in stealth, how good your stealthdetection is etc.
Works quite well compared to the more obvious "camouflage" most games use as stealth, which relies on people having either bad eyesight or using the same graphical settings as the devs... because we all know that (especially in games like FPS's), if a professional player sees even the slightest shimmer.. stealth is useless ;D
A being can not judge light if he has never seen it, neither can he judge darkness if he never has been it
I think what they have is good and maybe full invis when still. Playing vs full invis is just annoying tbh and i prefer it not to exist. I think it makes for bad player experience for everyone apart from the one that is stealthed.
So in most mmorpgs I tend to mostly play rogues. I like to be able to surprise my opponent and rogues having stealth is just a must have. My opinion on rogues stealth is that true invisibility should be obtainable. I like that at Rank 1 of stealth which you have in the game already is somewhat still visible. Its my hope that at rank 2 you can make your speed or duration longer and keeping the same visual, that being said. I really want to see Rank 3 achieve full invisibility. I know alot of people who hate rogues in other mmos hate the fact that you cant see them. Some of my suggestions to help appease this would be give stealth a duration, for example Stealth last 45secs, and has a 10 second cooldown, or something along those lines. Also I think that only Rogue primary class should be the only ones with Stealth as a skill. I dont want to see every class being able to stealth.
I've always enjoyed regular stealth with the implication you move at a slower rate and can be seen by certain classes that activate abilities to see anyone hidden in it. On top of this, a cooldown of course as well to go with it... You stealth, you can move with maybe -20% your regular speed and it lasts X amount of time and if you do literally anything it pops you out of stealth. Simple.
Personally I'm all for classes like Nightshield having abilities that provide group stealth, maybe lower levels require you to be immobilized, maybe higher levels increase what movement speed you can do. Something that's true mitigation as a Nightshield would be removal of targeting. I also love the concept of a placeable area of effect stealth that hides anyone inside it but allows enemies who go into it to see their foe again. Something akin to a one way mirror barrier, preventing ranged classes from safely using long range abilities for a short time and forcing them or melee players to get closer inside the bubble if they want to continue their attack on the same target(s). Maybe low level a small bubble that just hides whoever's inside, 2nd level make it larger area effect (this would in turn be a consequence to, giving more room to ranged classes to dodge), and third rank block any ranged abilities from the outside of the shield from entering. Things like group stealth would easily need a long cd and not too long duration so that it caters more towards group play, sieges, and the like over self use. To me these two concepts are perfect for a Nightshield in maintaining it being a tank that mitigates but using rogue's invisibility to "mitigate damage" through what players can/cannot target immediately.
In my opinion there should be various skills for hiding such as plain old invisibility, camouflage and hide and not every skill should be exclusive to the rogue but the rogue could use all of them.
I imagine them working something like this: Invisibility: For a short duration you become invisible. At low levels you are completely invisible when you are standing still but become a blur when you are moving, at higher levels you are completely invisible if you are moving a certain distance from someone but you start becoming a blur when you get closer. If you stand or move very close to another player, meaning at melee range literally on top the other player, you become a very noticeable blur. The effect ends if you use any offensive ability(even if you didn't hit something). Camouflage: Using some materials you become part of the environment e.g. a tree or a bush, you move very slowly and get a bar that reduces as long as you move there is no time duration but if the bar hits zero or you use any kind of ability you remove your camouflage. Higher levels give you bigger bar and more things you can camouflage into. Hide: You can hide somewhere, being a tree, a bush, a barrel whatever. You cannot move, the duration is very big(several minutes) if you do any movement or use an ability the skill ends.
Of course some other classes should be able to uncover you or see you. For instance a mage could use magic sight and see through your invisibility or camouflage, a ranger maybe can use some tracking ability and reveal your hiding spot and a cleric might use some reveal magic and despell your invisibility or destroy your camouflage. Also if you take a certain amount of damage all the abilities break and reveal you.
Yeah, I guess my guy has been playing rogue in WoW Classic recently? Where 80% of what you dealt with was getting oneshot by random rogues. No possible counterplay.
Guess it was fun.
I want to main bard to be, as always, a support. But I, and most of us, refuse to be a victim in a game with death penalties. Why would we let you abuse us? No way, man.
I like the stealth in PWI on assassin's..
Stealth and perception of the stealthed is equal to player's level..
So example, all level 100 characters perception level = 100.. level 50 character = level 50 perception etc.. But a level 100 assassin uses stealth skill adds +25 to invis, making the character completely invisible to anyone with less than +125 perception.
But if a level 50 rogue comes up on a level 100 character, using their stealth, they're only +75 stealth (lvl50 +skill25), so to a level 100 character the level 50 is only partially invis but still stealthed.
Then any attacking/casting/dealing DMG, breaks the stealth.
Iv heard talk of it being this shimmer effect and i was a little put off at first. If done right tho think it could be pretty good. Imagine its almost pretty much full invis if sitting still and the slower u move the harder it is to see. I like the idea of adding an element of skill to the stealth like having to play it slow and predict where they are headed for some sick bonus dmg with a attack from coming out of stealth. How does any one else feel about this idea?
In pve I have no issues with rogues having true invisibility, but in pvp being on the other side of that as a mage can be... frustrating. I mean I get it though, its a bit like crowd control, its fun to play but its hard to balance because its a one sided interaction until the opponent can break free or space out again, and those options are often pretty limited. It definitely stresses the need for group gameplay because rogue stealth is often combined with the upfront/burst damage. Its kind of their calling card (and I'm not arguing that's not how it should be).
Ideally I think whatever the stealth mechanic ends up being there should be some options for opponent to work around. And that option probably shouldn't be tied to total damage, because rogues should still be viably balanced dps in raiding.
One option is just that rogue has permanent true stealth but opponents also generally have some viable spacing options or cc's to counter (if they aren't already tanky or healy enough to be able to get through that initial burst/stun). Not every class matchup has to be evenly balanced, things are balanced more in group rather than solo. Still... if the opponent knows you are there they should be able to act in some small way to defend themselves or run away and not just be sitting ducks. Because pvp should be somewhat about skill not rock paper scissors on what class you have. When I was a necro in Rift one cool tactic i had was to spawn a bunch of pets and feign death (which detargeted them) and hope they got lost trying to retarget me in the pool of pets. It wasn't enough to give me an advantage in the matchup but it still let me buy some time to get back to allies.
Another option is to have the stealth mechanic be skill based in some way, like having to use shadows or having visibility within a certain range or outside of frontal vision. That way they still get the advantage... but only if they don't provoke suspicion and position smartly.
Another option is to have the stealth mechanic be skill based in some way, like having to use shadows or having visibility within a certain range or outside of frontal vision. That way they still get the advantage... but only if they don't provoke suspicion and position smartly.
I like this idea. I’ve never even considered the idea of a stealthed target only being partially visible when viewed in a the frontal cone of your character. What a neat concept. This gives both the target of the rogue, and the rogue itself, tools to work with surrounding the stealth skill.
I would add that it would be interesting if there was a certain attribute that contributed to stealth detection. Maybe intelligence (which seems like a primary stat for common targets of those who utilize stealth), wisdom, or an entirely separate stat synonymous with “stealth detection.” Perhaps it’s something you could train, related to your race and its natural abilities to see stealthed/hidden objects, or class specific enhancements. This would be similar to how passive detection might work in Dungeons and Dragons.
Another option is to have the stealth mechanic be skill based in some way, like having to use shadows or having visibility within a certain range or outside of frontal vision. That way they still get the advantage... but only if they don't provoke suspicion and position smartly.
I like this idea. I’ve never even considered the idea of a stealthed target only being partially visible when viewed in a the frontal cone of your character. What a neat concept. This gives both the target of the rogue, and the rogue itself, tools to work with surrounding the stealth skill.
I would add that it would be interesting if there was a certain attribute that contributed to stealth detection. Maybe intelligence (which seems like a primary stat for common targets of those who utilize stealth), wisdom, or an entirely separate stat synonymous with “stealth detection.” Perhaps it’s something you could train, related to your race and its natural abilities to see stealthed/hidden objects, or class specific enhancements. This would be similar to how passive detection might work in Dungeons and Dragons.
the frontal cone is a cool idea but I think it may lead to "twitchy" activity where players are constantly turning around very rapidly wherever they are going to check for stealthies. You see this kind of thing in fps sandbox games like rust where even when a player is looting they never stop moving, they constantly twitch back and forth to make it harder to get sniped, even if there are no known enemies around. If player direction is tied to your mouse players could easily incorporate this sort of rapid checking into their playstyle. In WoW people do this sort of movement in pvp by jumping, spinning, casting a spell in mid air, then turning around again before landing. this is a "skill-type" move that lets you cast spells on targets behind you without ever changing your direction of travel. I think that kind of skill related stuff is fine in combat, but if it became a standard for players anytime they're out in the world it would be very immersion breaking for me. Maybe I overestimate how far people will go to keep an edge in pvp though haha.
the frontal cone is a cool idea but I think it may lead to "twitchy" activity where players are constantly turning around very rapidly wherever they are going to check for stealthies. You see this kind of thing in fps sandbox games like rust where even when a player is looting they never stop moving, they constantly twitch back and forth to make it harder to get sniped, even if there are no known enemies around. If player direction is tied to your mouse players could easily incorporate this sort of rapid checking into their playstyle. In WoW people do this sort of movement in pvp by jumping, spinning, casting a spell in mid air, then turning around again before landing. this is a "skill-type" move that lets you cast spells on targets behind you without ever changing your direction of travel. I think that kind of skill related stuff is fine in combat, but if it became a standard for players anytime they're out in the world it would be very immersion breaking for me. Maybe I overestimate how far people will go to keep an edge in pvp though haha.
[/quote]
Haha, I suppose you’re right, when you consider the immersion bit. I have a feeling that most players won’t be walking around all the time twitching, expecting a random rogue to gank them. Conversely, I do expect people to become twitchy upon noticing there is something camouflaged around them, or perhaps after having been ganked. But, speaking from an immersion point of view, that makes equally as much sense.
Haha, I suppose you’re right, when you consider the immersion bit. I have a feeling that most players won’t be walking around all the time twitching, expecting a random rogue to gank them. Conversely, I do expect people to become twitchy upon noticing there is something camouflaged around them, or perhaps after having been ganked. But, speaking from an immersion point of view, that makes equally as much sense.
S
Ya it's hard to predict what players will or won't do. I've played rust with my little bro and he sits there and it's like he's on coke with his fingers never resting, but I play the game like "normal" without all the twitching and still enjoy it and don't feel like it's a huge disadvantage. At the same time jumping around all the time is a pretty standard player behavior in mmo's that is not really an immersive action but doesn't really bother me since I'm used to it.
I have a feeling that tuning graphical setting will make stealth useful only to break tab targeting, but to be actually unseen is going to work only against players that are consistently loosing to leveling mobs
What if a Rogue's skills were disabled for 2 seconds as they came out invisibility, as their body morphed back into the visible plane? That way, you'd still keep your mobility benefits, and you'd have to pay attention to your positioning, but it wouldn't be a guaranteed kill-fest every time you hit the "Stealth" button.
*presses Stealth to hide from the incoming backlash*
in other words make stealth useless for attacking and good only for running away. Interesting suggestion
I wouldn't say "useless". You'd use Stealth to get into a good position, wait until an enemy has walked past you, and then hit them from the back, assassin style.
2s of self incapacitate after cancelling stealth is pretty harmful, in any real situation you would at best want to cancel 2s before you can run to your victim.
I very much rather prefer the any distance visual cues we have now than what you suggest
I very much rather prefer the any distance visual cues we have now than what you suggest
Oh yeah, me too. I actually quite like the shimmer thing. I've been killed waaaay too many times by the totally invisible ganky types. Was just brainstorming ways to let them have their invisibility without it being overpowered.
Full invisibility is never a good idea for pvp, unless either everyone has access to it (which is no option here) or there is plenty of things that can counter it with EVERYONE having access to it (ESO had reveiling potions and poisons as an example). But this path often leads to people who rely on stealth being even more upset.
Therefore, I really like the devs approach with the "partial invisibility".
I assume tab target skills won't be able to hit someone in stealth while action and AoE skills will, or am I mistaken?
Former high-tier 1vX Pvper from ESO, seeking refuge in a better MMO
stealth atm is basically only for dropping tab targetting and unless you have bad eyes you will be able to see the stealthed person with barely any problem (if you focus on looking at him that is) - plus in apocalypse there was a skill that granted you passive vision of all stealthed characters for 30s
so I think stealth is just a combat mechanic atm, because people that dont pay attention to their surroundings wont see you even without stealth
“Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil.”
― Plato
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lot of paragraphs being typed by people who will not be participating in any pvp that will matter lol
Comments
True, though it does depend quite on how the stealth works/looks. WoW for example imo has circumvented this quite well whereby there are only 2 states of stealth (1... fully invisible regardless .. 2. Shadowy but clearly visible regardless of settings) .. whereby it simply changes from state 1 to 2 depending on how close someone is in stealth, how good your stealthdetection is etc.
Works quite well compared to the more obvious "camouflage" most games use as stealth, which relies on people having either bad eyesight or using the same graphical settings as the devs... because we all know that (especially in games like FPS's), if a professional player sees even the slightest shimmer.. stealth is useless ;D
A being can not judge light if he has never seen it, neither can he judge darkness if he never has been it
Too much WoW stuff. Yuck
Personally I'm all for classes like Nightshield having abilities that provide group stealth, maybe lower levels require you to be immobilized, maybe higher levels increase what movement speed you can do. Something that's true mitigation as a Nightshield would be removal of targeting. I also love the concept of a placeable area of effect stealth that hides anyone inside it but allows enemies who go into it to see their foe again. Something akin to a one way mirror barrier, preventing ranged classes from safely using long range abilities for a short time and forcing them or melee players to get closer inside the bubble if they want to continue their attack on the same target(s). Maybe low level a small bubble that just hides whoever's inside, 2nd level make it larger area effect (this would in turn be a consequence to, giving more room to ranged classes to dodge), and third rank block any ranged abilities from the outside of the shield from entering. Things like group stealth would easily need a long cd and not too long duration so that it caters more towards group play, sieges, and the like over self use. To me these two concepts are perfect for a Nightshield in maintaining it being a tank that mitigates but using rogue's invisibility to "mitigate damage" through what players can/cannot target immediately.
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
― G.K. Chesterton
I imagine them working something like this:
Invisibility: For a short duration you become invisible. At low levels you are completely invisible when you are standing still but become a blur when you are moving, at higher levels you are completely invisible if you are moving a certain distance from someone but you start becoming a blur when you get closer. If you stand or move very close to another player, meaning at melee range literally on top the other player, you become a very noticeable blur. The effect ends if you use any offensive ability(even if you didn't hit something).
Camouflage: Using some materials you become part of the environment e.g. a tree or a bush, you move very slowly and get a bar that reduces as long as you move there is no time duration but if the bar hits zero or you use any kind of ability you remove your camouflage. Higher levels give you bigger bar and more things you can camouflage into.
Hide: You can hide somewhere, being a tree, a bush, a barrel whatever. You cannot move, the duration is very big(several minutes) if you do any movement or use an ability the skill ends.
Of course some other classes should be able to uncover you or see you. For instance a mage could use magic sight and see through your invisibility or camouflage, a ranger maybe can use some tracking ability and reveal your hiding spot and a cleric might use some reveal magic and despell your invisibility or destroy your camouflage. Also if you take a certain amount of damage all the abilities break and reveal you.
Guess it was fun.
I want to main bard to be, as always, a support. But I, and most of us, refuse to be a victim in a game with death penalties. Why would we let you abuse us? No way, man.
Stealth and perception of the stealthed is equal to player's level..
So example, all level 100 characters perception level = 100.. level 50 character = level 50 perception etc.. But a level 100 assassin uses stealth skill adds +25 to invis, making the character completely invisible to anyone with less than +125 perception.
But if a level 50 rogue comes up on a level 100 character, using their stealth, they're only +75 stealth (lvl50 +skill25), so to a level 100 character the level 50 is only partially invis but still stealthed.
Then any attacking/casting/dealing DMG, breaks the stealth.
Ideally I think whatever the stealth mechanic ends up being there should be some options for opponent to work around. And that option probably shouldn't be tied to total damage, because rogues should still be viably balanced dps in raiding.
One option is just that rogue has permanent true stealth but opponents also generally have some viable spacing options or cc's to counter (if they aren't already tanky or healy enough to be able to get through that initial burst/stun). Not every class matchup has to be evenly balanced, things are balanced more in group rather than solo. Still... if the opponent knows you are there they should be able to act in some small way to defend themselves or run away and not just be sitting ducks. Because pvp should be somewhat about skill not rock paper scissors on what class you have. When I was a necro in Rift one cool tactic i had was to spawn a bunch of pets and feign death (which detargeted them) and hope they got lost trying to retarget me in the pool of pets. It wasn't enough to give me an advantage in the matchup but it still let me buy some time to get back to allies.
Another option is to have the stealth mechanic be skill based in some way, like having to use shadows or having visibility within a certain range or outside of frontal vision. That way they still get the advantage... but only if they don't provoke suspicion and position smartly.
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
― G.K. Chesterton
I like this idea. I’ve never even considered the idea of a stealthed target only being partially visible when viewed in a the frontal cone of your character. What a neat concept. This gives both the target of the rogue, and the rogue itself, tools to work with surrounding the stealth skill.
I would add that it would be interesting if there was a certain attribute that contributed to stealth detection. Maybe intelligence (which seems like a primary stat for common targets of those who utilize stealth), wisdom, or an entirely separate stat synonymous with “stealth detection.” Perhaps it’s something you could train, related to your race and its natural abilities to see stealthed/hidden objects, or class specific enhancements. This would be similar to how passive detection might work in Dungeons and Dragons.
the frontal cone is a cool idea but I think it may lead to "twitchy" activity where players are constantly turning around very rapidly wherever they are going to check for stealthies. You see this kind of thing in fps sandbox games like rust where even when a player is looting they never stop moving, they constantly twitch back and forth to make it harder to get sniped, even if there are no known enemies around. If player direction is tied to your mouse players could easily incorporate this sort of rapid checking into their playstyle. In WoW people do this sort of movement in pvp by jumping, spinning, casting a spell in mid air, then turning around again before landing. this is a "skill-type" move that lets you cast spells on targets behind you without ever changing your direction of travel. I think that kind of skill related stuff is fine in combat, but if it became a standard for players anytime they're out in the world it would be very immersion breaking for me. Maybe I overestimate how far people will go to keep an edge in pvp though haha.
the frontal cone is a cool idea but I think it may lead to "twitchy" activity where players are constantly turning around very rapidly wherever they are going to check for stealthies. You see this kind of thing in fps sandbox games like rust where even when a player is looting they never stop moving, they constantly twitch back and forth to make it harder to get sniped, even if there are no known enemies around. If player direction is tied to your mouse players could easily incorporate this sort of rapid checking into their playstyle. In WoW people do this sort of movement in pvp by jumping, spinning, casting a spell in mid air, then turning around again before landing. this is a "skill-type" move that lets you cast spells on targets behind you without ever changing your direction of travel. I think that kind of skill related stuff is fine in combat, but if it became a standard for players anytime they're out in the world it would be very immersion breaking for me. Maybe I overestimate how far people will go to keep an edge in pvp though haha.
[/quote]
Haha, I suppose you’re right, when you consider the immersion bit. I have a feeling that most players won’t be walking around all the time twitching, expecting a random rogue to gank them. Conversely, I do expect people to become twitchy upon noticing there is something camouflaged around them, or perhaps after having been ganked. But, speaking from an immersion point of view, that makes equally as much sense.
S
Ya it's hard to predict what players will or won't do. I've played rust with my little bro and he sits there and it's like he's on coke with his fingers never resting, but I play the game like "normal" without all the twitching and still enjoy it and don't feel like it's a huge disadvantage. At the same time jumping around all the time is a pretty standard player behavior in mmo's that is not really an immersive action but doesn't really bother me since I'm used to it.
Lol. Big true.
― Plato
*presses Stealth to hide from the incoming backlash*
― Plato
I wouldn't say "useless". You'd use Stealth to get into a good position, wait until an enemy has walked past you, and then hit them from the back, assassin style.
I very much rather prefer the any distance visual cues we have now than what you suggest
― Plato
Oh yeah, me too. I actually quite like the shimmer thing. I've been killed waaaay too many times by the totally invisible ganky types. Was just brainstorming ways to let them have their invisibility without it being overpowered.
― Plato
Therefore, I really like the devs approach with the "partial invisibility".
I assume tab target skills won't be able to hit someone in stealth while action and AoE skills will, or am I mistaken?
so I think stealth is just a combat mechanic atm, because people that dont pay attention to their surroundings wont see you even without stealth
― Plato