nidriks wrote: » All tools such as dps meters do is put pressure on players who just want to enjoy themselves.
primagoosa wrote: » nidriks wrote: » All tools such as dps meters do is put pressure on players who just want to enjoy themselves. What an incredibly unfair assessment of a tool. That's like saying all tools in a toolbox such as hammers do is put pressure on people who just want to relax at home and not be craftsmen/DIYers. I've spent countless hours over the course of WoW using damage meters for breakdown analysis, rotation optimization solo on a dummy, and testing other specs/mechanics. The real solution to a toxic community is finding your own positive community/guild to join. Flexing control over a game just so a pug might be nice to you as you relax through content is just immature. P.S. Communities will be toxic without meters, and the utility classes will likely be pushed to the side in favor of raw output classes simply due to perception. You can't avoid it, so face it straight up.
nidriks wrote: » primagoosa wrote: » nidriks wrote: » All tools such as dps meters do is put pressure on players who just want to enjoy themselves. What an incredibly unfair assessment of a tool. That's like saying all tools in a toolbox such as hammers do is put pressure on people who just want to relax at home and not be craftsmen/DIYers. I've spent countless hours over the course of WoW using damage meters for breakdown analysis, rotation optimization solo on a dummy, and testing other specs/mechanics. The real solution to a toxic community is finding your own positive community/guild to join. Flexing control over a game just so a pug might be nice to you as you relax through content is just immature. P.S. Communities will be toxic without meters, and the utility classes will likely be pushed to the side in favor of raw output classes simply due to perception. You can't avoid it, so face it straight up. Yes, communities will be toxic without tools, but having a dps meter running just accentuates that. I saw it in WoW classic. In lower level dungeons people being expected to up their damage. Players that are only 25% through their progress being told they need to be better? If communities are going to be toxic anyway, why have tools that will just give extra reasons for people to be toxic. I'm in a positive community, but that doesn't mean I don't want to get out there and meet others. Call me mad, but I like pugs. Ashes has the potential to recreate that feeling that EQ had. Not joining groups short term just to get a quest done, but to join to enjoy yourself. It's time to get that social aspect back, not over analyse everything we down down to the tiniest of minutae. I'd also like for Ashes to do away with the "meta" focus that so many games have nowadays. All styles of play should be appreciated, not just the ones that focus damage and boost efficiency. Let's have a nice community, not an aggressive one that pushes for efficiency.
Tarnish wrote: » Thank you to those who actually read my entire post. I think i was pretty respectful to the MMO in Alpha. Tarnish out.
Tarnish wrote: » KHRONUS wrote: » @Tarnish I felt your post was fairly respectful but you are complaining about a game that has 1.5+ years to go for development and you are saying that the issues that you see are too deeply rooted for you to give it a chance. You are also failing to recognize the reason for not having dps meters. JUST TURNING IT OFF is not the solution for the players that feel a dps meter would force a different community feeling that we want to see in this game. I come from a dps meter background where I have removed players for not being where they should be......now it will be a breath of fresh air to not have that as a tool. A tool that requires every "top tier" guild to use it to measure players. Instead, as a guild leader I have the opportunity to work with the whole raid to figure out what it is we are doing wrong. You also fail to see the point of why they have decided on 40 player raids without the option for 10 mans or other variance. This game is bringing back MMO roots of community building and making a name for yourself. Guilds that have 20 people in them and just run 10 player end game content are quite literally one of the biggest fails an MMO can have. They take away from precisely what IS wants out of this game and if you look at current wow now....it's dead because of it. I don't see why people think "wow killer" is still a thing. Wow is dead. Addiction is one of the biggest reasons they have subscriptions. The other is nostalgia. Had they not released wow classic, the numbers would be a whole lot different. I tried coming back to current wow and it is such a failed abomination of a game compared to what it used to be. I couldn't play WOW out of spite because they are just capitalizing on that nostalgia to keep their heads afloat. Don't even get me started on the community for blizzard games. Talk about cancer. I don't expect a response, just had to clear things up. Have a good one. Hi, wanted to squash this because you came off pretty respectful. for WoW and raid sizes. WoW popularity and Subs went up to record numbers each time they adjusted raid sizes. TBC wen to 25M and WOTLK went to 10M or 25M. WoW began to decline in Cata which is where i quit do to LFR. Now for the DPS meter as you posted. Big flaws is that you replaced your dps instead of helping get better with that DPS meter. DPS meters are tools. Just because someone under performs on dmg. It is very complex. If there is a support role you must take everything into account. However lets focus on the same example without a dps meter. How would you fix your issue without even being able to figure out what the raider is doing wrong. OR which one is causing the issues, or how many are causing issues. If you had a dps meter you can dig into his logs, even if you have never played the class before and at least give him some advice that could benefit him. Without a dps meter you're blind to the issues and can not properly lead your raiders to success. I know alot of people have bad experiences with elitist guilds. i assure you at the top of the mountain most of us are very kind and just try and help educate everyone on how to perform at their personal best. Raid size directly will effect how many teams assemble and from my experience more teams playing together generate more fun. Smaller and easier formed groups tend to lead to more interactions and fun. Fun keeps people around. In classic WoW right now the game has the community we missed however the raid size is the biggest down side and even the most successful guilds struggle with it. I just posted a second post to this one requesting topics to deep dive on. please comment a topic and i will surely deep dive and really thoroughly try to cover all the issues and concerns with a topic so that i dont have to speak on multiple topics in one post. Thanks dude, Tarnish
KHRONUS wrote: » @Tarnish I felt your post was fairly respectful but you are complaining about a game that has 1.5+ years to go for development and you are saying that the issues that you see are too deeply rooted for you to give it a chance. You are also failing to recognize the reason for not having dps meters. JUST TURNING IT OFF is not the solution for the players that feel a dps meter would force a different community feeling that we want to see in this game. I come from a dps meter background where I have removed players for not being where they should be......now it will be a breath of fresh air to not have that as a tool. A tool that requires every "top tier" guild to use it to measure players. Instead, as a guild leader I have the opportunity to work with the whole raid to figure out what it is we are doing wrong. You also fail to see the point of why they have decided on 40 player raids without the option for 10 mans or other variance. This game is bringing back MMO roots of community building and making a name for yourself. Guilds that have 20 people in them and just run 10 player end game content are quite literally one of the biggest fails an MMO can have. They take away from precisely what IS wants out of this game and if you look at current wow now....it's dead because of it. I don't see why people think "wow killer" is still a thing. Wow is dead. Addiction is one of the biggest reasons they have subscriptions. The other is nostalgia. Had they not released wow classic, the numbers would be a whole lot different. I tried coming back to current wow and it is such a failed abomination of a game compared to what it used to be. I couldn't play WOW out of spite because they are just capitalizing on that nostalgia to keep their heads afloat. Don't even get me started on the community for blizzard games. Talk about cancer. I don't expect a response, just had to clear things up. Have a good one.
i assure you at the top of the mountain most of us are very kind and just try and help educate everyone on how to perform at their personal best.
Sathrago wrote: » Nothing productive comes of a conversation based on damage in these types of games. Mechanics should be what you pay attention to. If a player in your group doesn't do mechanics right it does not matter how much damage they can do. (within reason of course.)
How do you get to this point with your opinion? I'm genuinely curious. For most FFXIV basic story content it's just mechanics, but if you want to do top tier content, you need to bring the DPS heat while you do mechanics.
Sathrago wrote: » How do you get to this point with your opinion? I'm genuinely curious. For most FFXIV basic story content it's just mechanics, but if you want to do top tier content, you need to bring the DPS heat while you do mechanics. Its simple. that is what item level requirements are for. As long as someone brings the right gear all they need to do is not be afk and do the mechanics. If someone is afk then they should be removed or brought back to the game. The only reason someone would bring up the damage meters is to belittle someone for not being as efficient as everyone else at pushing the buttons in the right order or at the right target. So lets focus on what actually matters, the mechanics being done right and keeping a positive atmosphere. telling another player how to do a mechanic is a lot less demeaning than telling them they need to get good at the class they have spent hours upon hours playing.
primagoosa wrote: » Sathrago wrote: » How do you get to this point with your opinion? I'm genuinely curious. For most FFXIV basic story content it's just mechanics, but if you want to do top tier content, you need to bring the DPS heat while you do mechanics. Its simple. that is what item level requirements are for. As long as someone brings the right gear all they need to do is not be afk and do the mechanics. If someone is afk then they should be removed or brought back to the game. The only reason someone would bring up the damage meters is to belittle someone for not being as efficient as everyone else at pushing the buttons in the right order or at the right target. So lets focus on what actually matters, the mechanics being done right and keeping a positive atmosphere. telling another player how to do a mechanic is a lot less demeaning than telling them they need to get good at the class they have spent hours upon hours playing. You can't think that damage output is purely a factor of ilvl in any game. Class execution is always paramount to performance, and if it isn't, then the game is essentially Nonstop Knight, playing for you. There's a very interesting and unfortunate insecurity players have when it comes to damage meters, and not having them isn't going to address the insecurity nor is it going to automatically breed a positive atmosphere. Someone who is toxic with meters will just find another reason to be toxic. Nothing is solved. Story time: in Warlords of Draenor, I only really remember one thing. In a pug raid, another warlock saw how much more damage I was doing and asked me how. I walked him through the setup and burn phase, answered his questions, and he thanked me. One of my friends loved seeing someone with his same spec in WoW pug heroic raids so he could compare overall numbers, drill into the breakdown, learn and improve. They never really talked to each other. Sometimes people use meters to be toxic, sure. But not always. People also use classes to be toxic, ilvl, and messing up mechanics. Sometimes asking questions gets you toxicity. So what are we solving exactly by not having a damage meter? You have less data to analyze outcomes in order for... what? People to feel comfortable hiding their performance with false promises that others will magically be nice to them? If content only requires basic mechanics, it'll be boring. If it requires pushing classes to their limits, logging/meters will be developed whether they are sanctioned or not.
maouw wrote: » I feel as though is problem comes from a 40-man raid perspective where there are too many people that 1 person is tasked with managing so a DPS meter is basically this person's secretary. In smaller groups it's much easier to tell intuitively who is falling short AND why. I think people have been burned by DPS meters because in a smaller group you address the problem directly in context of how it affects the rest of the group and it makes sense. Whereas feedback from someone looking through DPS charts usually becomes a witch hunt because numbers were too low, people's egos get inflated and that breeds a toxic culture of blameshifting. I'm also aware that this thread is devolving into another DPS meter thread - it might be best to continue this conversation there.
Sathrago wrote: » primagoosa wrote: » Sathrago wrote: » How do you get to this point with your opinion? I'm genuinely curious. For most FFXIV basic story content it's just mechanics, but if you want to do top tier content, you need to bring the DPS heat while you do mechanics. Its simple. that is what item level requirements are for. As long as someone brings the right gear all they need to do is not be afk and do the mechanics. If someone is afk then they should be removed or brought back to the game. The only reason someone would bring up the damage meters is to belittle someone for not being as efficient as everyone else at pushing the buttons in the right order or at the right target. So lets focus on what actually matters, the mechanics being done right and keeping a positive atmosphere. telling another player how to do a mechanic is a lot less demeaning than telling them they need to get good at the class they have spent hours upon hours playing. You can't think that damage output is purely a factor of ilvl in any game. Class execution is always paramount to performance, and if it isn't, then the game is essentially Nonstop Knight, playing for you. There's a very interesting and unfortunate insecurity players have when it comes to damage meters, and not having them isn't going to address the insecurity nor is it going to automatically breed a positive atmosphere. Someone who is toxic with meters will just find another reason to be toxic. Nothing is solved. Story time: in Warlords of Draenor, I only really remember one thing. In a pug raid, another warlock saw how much more damage I was doing and asked me how. I walked him through the setup and burn phase, answered his questions, and he thanked me. One of my friends loved seeing someone with his same spec in WoW pug heroic raids so he could compare overall numbers, drill into the breakdown, learn and improve. They never really talked to each other. Sometimes people use meters to be toxic, sure. But not always. People also use classes to be toxic, ilvl, and messing up mechanics. Sometimes asking questions gets you toxicity. So what are we solving exactly by not having a damage meter? You have less data to analyze outcomes in order for... what? People to feel comfortable hiding their performance with false promises that others will magically be nice to them? If content only requires basic mechanics, it'll be boring. If it requires pushing classes to their limits, logging/meters will be developed whether they are sanctioned or not. Look, all I am saying is that I played for a few months in final fantasy, did most of the content aside from the extreme versions of the last raids. Almost all of these fights my friend had a dps meter but couldnt say anything about the healer that could be doing damage while also healing or the dude that is just plain not doing his rotation correctly. Instead of focusing on that we were essentially forced to play nice and make sure they followed the mechanics. These people were required a certain Item level to sign up for the dungeons/raids/trails so all we needed from them was to do the mechanics right and not be extremely bad at their class rotations. I find that to be a better atmosphere than a bunch of random pricks comparing dps sizes and belittling those that are not as good. I said this earlier, it is much easier to discuss with a random player about the mechanics of the boss than it is to teach them how to play the class they think they are good at. Many people don't like it when they are pretty much personally insulted for not doing enough damage with the class they have been playing for who knows how long. Mechanics change from boss to boss so there is leeway and understanding that can be met, making a friendlier atmosphere. Classes are there for good and people in general do not like being corrected on how they play it.
