Damokles wrote: » How about a Witcher system? Dont put any CD on the potions, but make them give you a debuff. Shure, you can drink a ton of potions at once, but after 2 you get a health debuff and suffer some slight DoT. That would increase with the amount of potions you drink over the limit, stacking on top of one another.
Noaani wrote: » Vashramire wrote: » Honestly mana in most games is just a background stat. I highlighted the important word there. 99% of the time, it is a background stat in EQ2 as well. The games developers are just smart enough to be able to make use of it in a more pronounced way at different times. I wasn't saying that mana should be a full variable like it is in literally every MMO ever except FFXIV because then it can be used as a mechanic in content (if that is what I was saying, I wouldn't have given two examples), I am saying that since Intrepid have a good number of those exact same developers from EQ2 on staff, I am sure they are able to make actual good use of mana as a variable stat in Ashes, just as they were in EQ2. Perhaps more to the point, what I am saying is that if we were to make an assumption as to whether Intrepid will go the FFXIV route for mana, or the route that literally every other MMO ever has taken, we should probably assume the route that literally every other MMO has taken will be what they decide, and that is a good thing because it allows the developers to do more things that are interesting - even if mana is a background stat 99% of the time, that 1% of the time it isn't justfies it.
Vashramire wrote: » Honestly mana in most games is just a background stat.
Lore Dynamic wrote: » I would love to see more damaging/debilitating/de-buffing Potions in MMO's. It can't always be about Sunshine & Rainbows, right? (Health & Mana). How about all of the dark and dangerous concoctions that mad Alchemists make? Poison Potions, Basilisk Vials, Liquid-Fire Tinctures... so on. I want to throw some Grease Orbs and every other kind of terrible potion at the enemies feet as well!
Vashramire wrote: » Lore Dynamic wrote: » I would love to see more damaging/debilitating/de-buffing Potions in MMO's. It can't always be about Sunshine & Rainbows, right? (Health & Mana). How about all of the dark and dangerous concoctions that mad Alchemists make? Poison Potions, Basilisk Vials, Liquid-Fire Tinctures... so on. I want to throw some Grease Orbs and every other kind of terrible potion at the enemies feet as well! As dumb as it sounds, I want to see a potion that sets me on fire and damages everything around me. Friend and foe cuz fire has no friends. Useless to most? Yes. Helpful trade off for AOE tanking? Also yes.
Vashramire wrote: » I get the potential is there but I don't think such a low chance of them using it in an encounter validates that the system of mana should definitively be managed in that way. Intrepid isn't really trying to make a game like all the others anyway do I don't see that as a reason they should bend to the majority just because it's popular. FFXIV is by no means the only MMO that caps mana at a static number and works fine. It more importantly comes down to what they want mana to do for the player and how do the classes play than how that stat can be used elsewhere. It's not uncommon to have a class that has high burst that is mechanically meant to oom and build it back up. I've also seen characters oom regularly on the Dev streams with mechanic that give others mana so fluctuating mana seems to be common. That throws the entire reason to use mana as an encounter mechanic out the window because that class wouldn't be able to participate in that fight unless they gimped the party heavily. Exclusion just feels like bad game design. At the end of the day I'm saying the reason for how mana should be handled is with the classes in mind over having potential interactions with content once in a blue moon. That 1% only exists if they create it meaning it's optional. You don't balance a stat because you might use it like that one day.
Noaani wrote: » I'm not sure why you would think that having mana be affected by other stats, or be a stat in it's own right, would mean you can't have classes based around the idea of massive mana use for high spike damage, followed by going oom or close to it. All making mana a stat does to a class based on this is give them an option for how to gear up. They can gear up by trying to increase the damage of each spell, as per normal, or they can gear up to increase their mana pool so that their spike damage is able to last for a longer period of time. Its straight up more options. More options are good. As to classes not being able to participate in an encounter that uses mana as a mechanic like the one I mentioned, keep in mind that I am not talking hypotheticals - I am talking about an actual mechanic from an actual encounter from an actual game that many of Intrepids staff worked on. It isn't a mechanic that prevents some classes from being able to participate, and the only statement I need to back that up with is that we never sat anyone for the encounter in question. If it is done poorly, then you may have a point. However, the fault then lies with the poor execution, not with using mana as a mechanic. Any negatives you can find either with variable mana, mana based attacks (as per manaburn that I siacussed earlier), or mana based encounter mechanics are all negatives with a specific execution, not with the design idea as a whole. Sure, some players may well find that their class isn't as effective on that encounter as it is on others, but good game design of top end content should strive to highlight aspects of different classes, which means there is a necessity to also make other classes less effective in comparison. If an encounter like this also had a required minimum DPS, then again, you'd have a point, and I point to poor execution. Encou ters like this are not DPS races, they are specifically there to make sure your DPS are able to function in a way other than just maximum output. If we were talking about a system that prevented players from having some options but opened up different ones, then that would be fine, it would just be an opinion thing. Problem is, there are no options being opened up by capping mana like this, which is why I think it is a poor game design decision. It isn't a matter of execution here, it is a matter of design.
Vashramire wrote: » I'm not saying what you propose isn't unexecuteable if they so choose. It just seems that you are determined for them to build the mana stat to recreate something from another game rather than build the classes first and then encounters based on what is possible from that.
How mana was designed like in EQ2 facilitated it's use in that fight not the other way around.
Noaani wrote: » Vashramire wrote: » I'm not saying what you propose isn't unexecuteable if they so choose. It just seems that you are determined for them to build the mana stat to recreate something from another game rather than build the classes first and then encounters based on what is possible from that. The decision to have a set mana pool is not something you make while designing and iterating a class. It is a decision you make for a whole game, and then you design classes based on that. How mana was designed like in EQ2 facilitated it's use in that fight not the other way around. This is true, and I have not said otherwise. I am not saying that mechanic would fit in to Ashes. I wouldn't want Intrepid to even attempt to implement it until the game is a few years old (it is a tough mechanic to pull off, players and developers need to understand the game). What I am saying -for about the tenth time - is if you put a hard cap on mana pools, you take options away from both players and developers. I asked you this in my previous post, and I will ask it again. Name one thing that is possible in a game with set mana pools that is not also possible in games with variable mana pools. If you can't name something, then it is obviously a bad design decision as all it does is remove options from players and developers.
Vashramire wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Vashramire wrote: » I'm not saying what you propose isn't unexecuteable if they so choose. It just seems that you are determined for them to build the mana stat to recreate something from another game rather than build the classes first and then encounters based on what is possible from that. The decision to have a set mana pool is not something you make while designing and iterating a class. It is a decision you make for a whole game, and then you design classes based on that. How mana was designed like in EQ2 facilitated it's use in that fight not the other way around. This is true, and I have not said otherwise. I am not saying that mechanic would fit in to Ashes. I wouldn't want Intrepid to even attempt to implement it until the game is a few years old (it is a tough mechanic to pull off, players and developers need to understand the game). What I am saying -for about the tenth time - is if you put a hard cap on mana pools, you take options away from both players and developers. I asked you this in my previous post, and I will ask it again. Name one thing that is possible in a game with set mana pools that is not also possible in games with variable mana pools. If you can't name something, then it is obviously a bad design decision as all it does is remove options from players and developers. It's not what's possible, it's how it allows the game to be tuned and balanced. As gear gets better and you get more mana, that eventually hits a break point where mana gets to a point that oom potential is low and skill management means nothing because you have such a large buffer unless all you do is spam the most expensive skill for lolz.
Noaani wrote: » So, what you are saying is that you think the developers at Intrepid are shit at their job, and so the game should be dumbed down for their sake? Because that is actually what you are saying here - you don't think the developers would be able to handle it. If I didn't think the developers working on a game were competent, I wouldn't give the game a second look.
Vashramire wrote: » you seemed unjustly disgusted by capping mana
Noaani wrote: » Vashramire wrote: » you seemed unjustly disgusted by capping mana It is perfectly just. I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise. A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it.
Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Vashramire wrote: » you seemed unjustly disgusted by capping mana It is perfectly just. I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise. A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it. Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic.
Noaani wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Vashramire wrote: » you seemed unjustly disgusted by capping mana It is perfectly just. I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise. A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it. Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic. I've been asking about the utilization of a mana cap - specifically asking what it allows for that can't be done without a mana cap. This is now the third time I have asked it without an answer. I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players. Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion.
Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Vashramire wrote: » you seemed unjustly disgusted by capping mana It is perfectly just. I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise. A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it. Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic. I've been asking about the utilization of a mana cap - specifically asking what it allows for that can't be done without a mana cap. This is now the third time I have asked it without an answer. I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players. Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion. Not blaming you for having an opinion, simply saying that we don't know which system intrepid is using, or even if they could be using another system besides the ones mentioned. For all we know mana will only be a resource for mage classes. Go ahead and throw your points out there for why you think one system may work or another won't, but its kind of a dead end to say one is absolutely right or wrong when we have no idea what route the game is taking or how the systems actually work. There are too many factors to consider between Class Variables, item variables, stat variable, consumable variables, skill variables, playstyle variables, talents, etc. Argue the topic of what consumable mechanic would work with whichever cap/no cap mechanic, but its too early to justify which system would work in the game without knowing more information.
Noaani wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Vashramire wrote: » you seemed unjustly disgusted by capping mana It is perfectly just. I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise. A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it. Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic. I've been asking about the utilization of a mana cap - specifically asking what it allows for that can't be done without a mana cap. This is now the third time I have asked it without an answer. I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players. Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion. Not blaming you for having an opinion, simply saying that we don't know which system intrepid is using, or even if they could be using another system besides the ones mentioned. For all we know mana will only be a resource for mage classes. Go ahead and throw your points out there for why you think one system may work or another won't, but its kind of a dead end to say one is absolutely right or wrong when we have no idea what route the game is taking or how the systems actually work. There are too many factors to consider between Class Variables, item variables, stat variable, consumable variables, skill variables, playstyle variables, talents, etc. Argue the topic of what consumable mechanic would work with whichever cap/no cap mechanic, but its too early to justify which system would work in the game without knowing more information. I never said it wouldn't work, I said it wouldn't add anything. While we don't know details about what classes will use mana, it hie any replenishment can work, we can still talk hypotheticals. I have been asking for a hypothetical scenario where capped mana would make the game better rather than worse, and am yet to receive any suggestions. This is even taking in to account that there is a game that has this system, yet no one is pointing to FFXIV and why they did it, saying that it makes the game better by giving players more options. I'm not saying that I think Ashes should have a capped mana system because of some reason, I am saying that I think no game should have a capped mana system because there is no advantage to it.
Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Vashramire wrote: » you seemed unjustly disgusted by capping mana It is perfectly just. I am opposed to any mechanic that removes options for players, without having a worthwhile compromise. A hard cap on mana does this, and so I am opposed to it. Options are good, so long as they don't contradict systems in place. And seeing as we don't know all of the details on combat and class abilities or even stats, so who is to say the capped version wouldn't benefit the design that the developers are creating? We don't know yet, so saying one or the other shouldn't be used is based on an opinion without much of a foundation. But to say that they are both plausible routes the developers may take is a proper statement and it is a good thing to discuss the utilization each would have with different types of potion mechanics since that is the topic. I've been asking about the utilization of a mana cap - specifically asking what it allows for that can't be done without a mana cap. This is now the third time I have asked it without an answer. I mean, if others want a discussion about it, cool. Thing is, if they aren't going to actually discuss it, I am left with nothing but my opinion - which is that a cap like that adds nothing to the game, and only takes away options from players. Don't go blaming me for having an opinion on a topic, wanting a discussion on it, but no one being willing to defend their opposing opinion. Not blaming you for having an opinion, simply saying that we don't know which system intrepid is using, or even if they could be using another system besides the ones mentioned. For all we know mana will only be a resource for mage classes. Go ahead and throw your points out there for why you think one system may work or another won't, but its kind of a dead end to say one is absolutely right or wrong when we have no idea what route the game is taking or how the systems actually work. There are too many factors to consider between Class Variables, item variables, stat variable, consumable variables, skill variables, playstyle variables, talents, etc. Argue the topic of what consumable mechanic would work with whichever cap/no cap mechanic, but its too early to justify which system would work in the game without knowing more information. I never said it wouldn't work, I said it wouldn't add anything. While we don't know details about what classes will use mana, it hie any replenishment can work, we can still talk hypotheticals. I have been asking for a hypothetical scenario where capped mana would make the game better rather than worse, and am yet to receive any suggestions. This is even taking in to account that there is a game that has this system, yet no one is pointing to FFXIV and why they did it, saying that it makes the game better by giving players more options. I'm not saying that I think Ashes should have a capped mana system because of some reason, I am saying that I think no game should have a capped mana system because there is no advantage to it. I get that, I was just saying that it would depend on the systems implemented to say whether a capped system can be beneficial or not. I personally don't see much of a reason to cap it either, but until they release much more info I can't really justify sitting here and saying no to it just because its what I think. I would rather go off of what I know.
