Are we going to have MORE physics, force, impulse and displacements of actors?

Edited!

Skills that push, pull, repel, attract and displace npc's and players. Other than the chain we have now.

Is a deal breaker for me. I would like more.

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Tacualeon

Noaani wrote: »

that seems to have gone well over your head, is that the bulk of the MMO playerbase don't put spectacle high on the priority. They put things like storytelling..

Again. This post is about making combat better and more enjoyable from a player experience.
If you want to talk about storytelling look for other post.

Noaani wrote: »

player interaction, and how combat feels well above how combat looks.

You are confusing concepts and the order I say things happened.
Mobas genre wasn't created for looks, and found a good pvp.
Mobas went for a good pvp, and it looked good.

Mobas have the abstract chess-like fights in your head againts your enemy, managing cd over time and putting in check each others cooldowns and disminishing returns.

And the mechanical, physical and highs of tension that makes for memorable combat moments by mechanically dodging something dangerous or using a mechanical/precision skill with the right timing and/or positioning, that ends up turning the tide of battle.

Noaani wrote: »

if people stopped watching MOBA's, those that play them would soon realize that they are not actually overly enjoyable games to play.

No they wouldn't.
There is more people playing than watching.
With over 80 million players world-wide today your argument streches logic.

Noaani wrote: »

Another aspect of this to point out is in the heritage of each genre. MOBA's are essentially derived from FPS games (as I am sure you know)

No.

Noaani wrote: »

MOBA's put how combat looks higher

No.

Noaani wrote: »

MOBA's put how combat looks higher because they need the game to look good

No.

Noaani wrote: »

MOBA's need spectacle because that is all they use to pull players in with

No.
Your assume a lot of things about Mobas for someone who has no clue about them

Noaani wrote: »

Since Intrepid have zero e-sport intentions in relation to Ashes, there is no need to amp up the spectacle value.

I think this is a mediocre statement in 2020 where companies give videogame engines for free.

Noaani wrote: »

And again, if Intrepid were wanting to pull in the MOBA crowd, they would be making a MOBA.

This is a counter-argument you just pulled out of your bass like most of them. You are the only one saying that.

If all pvp you have ever tasted was mmorpg and you want to stay in your little box with 20 years old combat system, good for you.
I've seen better, I have enjoyed and seen other enjoy memorable moments and I think mmorpg should evolve.

bloodprophet

That devolved quickly.

Noaani

Tacualeon wrote: »

Again. This post is about making combat better and more enjoyable from a player experience.
If you want to talk about storytelling look for other post.

When you said

Tacualeon wrote: »

In my eyes, videogames are interaction first and audiovisual spectacle second.

This thread became about anything people considered more important to an MMO than spectacle.

The big issue here seems to be that you are just grouping all games together in to one, totally ignoring the fact that different genres exist to provide different things to players. You seem to want to get the same thing out of all games you play, regardless of genre. As such, you are arguing in an attempt to make that a reality.

This is why I earlier pointed out the variation of movies that are considered widely to be the best ever (after you bought movies in to this discussion). Many of them are great movies without the spectacle - Schindlers List, for example, would have been a very strange movie if there was a Saving Private Ryan-esq combat scene in the middle of it. It is simply the wrong type of movie - the wrong genre - for that kind of spectacle.

Now, you may well not enjoy Schindlers List, or Citizen Kane, and may well be all about Marvel movies and such. That's great, you now know the genre of movie you like watching - so feel free to watch as many of those movies as you want. That doesn't mean you should ask for movies of other genres to include or enhance the aspects of Marvel movies that you enjoy though - as that would clearly and obviously be wrong.

With games, if you place that high of a priority on spectacle, then play games of a genre that also place that high of a priority on spectacle. Historically, that has not been MMO's. The focus there is on other things, with the spectacle being way down the list (though still on the list, to be fair).

Tacualeon wrote: »

I've seen better, I have enjoyed and seen other enjoy memorable moments and I think mmorpg should evolve.

There is perhaps a need for MMO's to spawn a sub-genre in the same way that RTS (got the acronym right this time) did with MOBA's.

I am not going to argue that, and if/when that happens, MMO's may well go the way RTS games have gone now.

Thing is, that can't and won't happen when someone is trying to make a big budget MMO. You don't force sustainable change, it happens organically or not at all.

Tacualeon

Noaani wrote: »

...grouping all games together in to one, totally ignoring the fact that different genres exist to provide different things to players...

Noaani wrote: »

..Schindlers List, for example, would have been a very strange movie if there was a Saving Private Ryan-esq combat scene in the middle of it. It is simply the wrong type of movie - the wrong genre - for that kind of spectacle.
.. Schindlers List, or Citizen Kane, and may well be all about Marvel movies and such. That's great, you now know the genre of movie you like watching - so feel free to watch as many of those movies as you want. That doesn't mean you should ask for movies of other genres to include or enhance the aspects...

Noaani wrote: »

You seem to want to get the same thing out of all games you play, regardless of genre.

Yes, the best version of pvp available.

maouw

Hey Tacualeon,

I love inertial mechanics in games too. And I definitely think MOBAs (League in particular) have shown that 3rd person games have amazing potential to play with positioning using tools like knockbacks/teleports/dashes/pulls/pushes/trips - I'd love to see them in AoC too! But the impact of LoL's innovation in 3rd person combat is hard to measure (but I can 100% relate to the staleness of MMORPG combat these days)

At this point, these mechanics definitely haven't been implemented in a similar way yet, but what we have is still pre-alpha and I think the engineers are currently focused on other more rudimentary issues right now.

To be very honest though, looking through the skills that have been designed so far - none of them look like skills that will have this depth. That pull seems to be the only hint of combat in this category and it's a pretty extreme version of it.

All of this is to say, I think it's unlikely that AoC will be heading in this direction for its combat because it's so foreign to the MMORPG concept as of 2020, and AoC is particularly focused on retrieving the best parts of past MMO's, rather than trying to invent something new (I know it's not new, but it's new to the genre). This is only my speculation though - I think alpha 1 or 2 is intending to gather data about the combat system - so it's hard to say anything for certain before we see combat in alpha 1.

I could be totally wrong in my guess, so it's probably worth asking about in the next Dev Questions.

Tacualeon

maouw wrote: »

Hey Tacualeon,

I love inertial mechanics in games too. And I definitely think MOBAs (League in particular) have shown that 3rd person games have amazing potential to play with positioning using tools like knockbacks/teleports/dashes/pulls/pushes/trips

Someone else also seeing the potential in this, is enough for my heart's content for the moment

maouw wrote: »

All of this is to say, I think it's unlikely that AoC will be heading in this direction for its combat because it's so foreign to the MMORPG concept as of 2020

I understand.
I just dislike traditionalism, mental lazyness and "thing has always been like that"

maouw

I feel your pain.
I'm sure it will eventually become the norm.

Tacualeon

maouw wrote: »

I'm sure it will eventually become the norm.

I'm learning Unreal Engine 4.
I will help Intrepid create an awesome combat system or I will create myself. You will hear of me again!
tenor.gif?itemid=10358403

Nagash

Tacualeon wrote: »

I'm learning Unreal Engine 4.
I will help Intrepid create an awesome combat system or I will create myself. You will hear of me again!

Yeah I forgot you already

Tacualeon

Wasn't talking to you, but whatever leader of men.

Mods can close the post now.

Noaani

Tacualeon wrote: »

Yes, the best version of pvp available.

Is it though?

Surely that is what FPS games offer. It is pure PvP, with nothing else.

The problem with attempting to outright replicate the amount of character manipulation seen in MOBA's in an MMO is that MOBA's only emply small maps - and these maps can easily be crafted to suit that style of game.

MMO's, on the other hand, need to create worlds, not maps. The entire world can not be created with that level of character manipulation in mind.

Rather, what MMO's are able to do is create a world, and then limit the amount of character manipulation that is available to players. This means unintended actions like pushing a player down a cliff are absolutely possible, but are not necessarily easy to pull off. As I have said in this thread, there will be at least 6000 abilities by the time augments are counted, and a number of them will include character manipulation - without a doubt. But it will be MMO levels of character manipulation, not MOBA levels.

If an MMO had MOBA levels of character manipulation, performing those unintended yet possible actions would be far too easy, and thus far too common.

This is as I said earlier, different genre offer different things. If that level of character manipulation is what you want, you absolutely have MOBA's for that. If you want that spectacle, you can have it. On the other hand, if you want a persistent world, if you want character development, if you want meaningful player interactions, then you have MMO's.

Mods can close the post now.

You know you don't get to decide that, right?

Tacualeon

Noaani wrote: »

Is it though?

Surely that is what FPS games offer. It is pure PvP, with nothing else.

Mmorpg could copy specialized pvp games (mobas) for improving it's own pvp.
For the 5th time, Mobas are not FPS.

Noaani wrote: »

MMO's, on the other hand, need to create worlds, not maps. The entire world can not be created with that level of character manipulation in mind.

You know level design, rigging, animation and physics are completely different things right?

Noaani wrote: »

This means unintended actions like pushing a player down a cliff are absolutely possible, but are not necessarily easy to pull off.

No. This is incredible easy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNkjJFiymuc

Noaani wrote: »

You know you don't get to decide that, right?

I do, actually.
I just need to stop responding.

Good talk!

Noaani

Tacualeon wrote: »

Mobas are not FPS, I'm getting tired of repeating dude.

I didn't say they were, I said FPS games (like CS:GO, as an example) are the best version of PvP.

You know level design, rigging, animation and physics are completely different things right?

As someone that seems to want to give the appearance of having some knowledge of game design, you seem to be completely unaware of how literally every aspect of a game needs to work in harmony.

While these things may all be different, the decisions made in one will affect the decisions made in all. You straight up can not design these systems independently of each other and expect to end up with a good game.

No. This is incredible easy.

I'm not watching that. If you have a point to make, make that point yourself.

I do, actually.
I'm the one asking the questions, but even as an afictionado I have ended up having to correct you in plenty of wrong assumptions, concepts and vocabulary.

Literally the only thing you corrected me in was when I typed the wrong acronym. Thing is, since I followed that acronym up directly with the name of the specific game in question, if you were half as smart as you think you are, you would have realized that I knew what I was talking about, I just typed out the wrong acronym.

And no, you don't decide when the mods close threads, not even ones you started. If there is discussion still happening in the thread, and that discussion is not abusive or harmful in any way, then the thread stays open. If there is no discssion, the thread will fall off the front page.

Since I'm quite happy to continue discussion (with you or with others), then there is no reason for the mods to close the thread - despite you asking them to (because again, that is not your call).

Tacualeon

Whatever man.

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