Yuyukoyay wrote: » So I can play that Harry Potter game and not have to worry about Ashes coming out in the middle of it.
Nagash wrote: » Yuyukoyay wrote: » So I can play that Harry Potter game and not have to worry about Ashes coming out in the middle of it. that and cyberpunk 2077 2
Noaani wrote: » Osire wrote: » 5 years is standard for an mmo. 5 years was standard 15 years ago. WoW took about 5 years to develop, as did EQ2. MMO's are more complex than that now, and take longer to develop. ESO was 7 years in development. Archeage took 7 years to develop. Bless was in development for 7 years. GW2 was in development for at least 6 years. FFXIV was 9 years in development, in total. So your assumption that 5 years is standard for modern MMO's is somewhat misplaced, and I would really like to know how you came to believe that is the case. To add to this, it is also somewhat important to understand that actual development of Ashes didn't begin until 2018, didn't begin in earnest until 2019, and even now it still isn't at anything close to full speed. You can't just hire a full development team in one go when you are only developing one game, and have something for everyone to do. There is a process, a work flow if you will, that needs to be followed - and each developer only works on their specific area of that process. You can't get a developer to work on their part of it until the parts that their part rely on are finished. This is why some studios are able to pump out games faster than others, rather than working on one title at a time, they will be working on three or four at a time, each of them in different stages of development, which means each of them are employing different teams of developers within the studio. Since Intrepid are only developing one game, they can't look at hiring the developers to work on the next aspect until the previous aspect of locked down. Once it is locked down, they can then hire that next group of developers - who themselves have to wind up their old job, probably move to a new city and then spend some time getting to understand what it is that Ashes is trying to be, all before they are able to become fully productive members of staff. This process in itself would be expected to take 3 - 6 months, and has to happen several times during development of a project like Ashes. If you assume Ashes development started in 2018 (I would argue it started in 2019), then even that 5 year assumption puts it's release in 2023. So even your insistance that the game should only take 5 years to develop puts the release in 2023. If you assume it will be a 7 year development as per many other MMO's (see above) we are looking at 2025. If it does a FFXIV, then we are looking at 2027. All that is assured though, is that complaining about a 2023 release as being too late is an ill-informed position.
Osire wrote: » 5 years is standard for an mmo.
neuroguy wrote: » Osire wrote: » vmangman wrote: » Osire wrote: » Nagash wrote: » Well the devs have not given a time for release but 2023/2024 seems likely did you not get the joke, we're complaining because of how long its going to take, especially for a project that is so well funded, so well staffed, and has been in dev since 2016 It has been in active development of more than just design on paper since mid Q1/Q2 2017 and they have slowly ramped your their team size and they’re still smaller than AAA studios. 2022 would be 5 years of development which is standard and 2023 would be 6 years which is completely reasonable for an indie studio making a game of this size. Also, though this rpg looks amazing, its a bit problematic how many complex systems they plan to add into the game. 64 Classes is firstly WAY too many, and though it would be amazing to see that many, It's too complex, with that many classes comes balancing, etc. Then not to mention the problem of all the little complex systems they have. If you watched the mini interview steven had with Asmongold, popular streamer/youtuber, every time he asked him if they had insert blank, steven would reply yes, and much more. Which is a bit concerning seems none of the core things for the game are even developed yet, and they plan to add SO much content. Which sounds great but slows down development significantly. Pretty sure the complexity of the many systems is one of the major reasons people are hyped for this game. Not sure what about the game is attractive to you given the lack of gameplay other than the concepts that will be attempted. As mentioned, there has been no marketing for this game, the hype is from MMORPG players that are a bit sick of getting re-skinned crap every year and find lots to be excited for with this game (i.e. its many fresh and complex systems).
Osire wrote: » vmangman wrote: » Osire wrote: » Nagash wrote: » Well the devs have not given a time for release but 2023/2024 seems likely did you not get the joke, we're complaining because of how long its going to take, especially for a project that is so well funded, so well staffed, and has been in dev since 2016 It has been in active development of more than just design on paper since mid Q1/Q2 2017 and they have slowly ramped your their team size and they’re still smaller than AAA studios. 2022 would be 5 years of development which is standard and 2023 would be 6 years which is completely reasonable for an indie studio making a game of this size. Also, though this rpg looks amazing, its a bit problematic how many complex systems they plan to add into the game. 64 Classes is firstly WAY too many, and though it would be amazing to see that many, It's too complex, with that many classes comes balancing, etc. Then not to mention the problem of all the little complex systems they have. If you watched the mini interview steven had with Asmongold, popular streamer/youtuber, every time he asked him if they had insert blank, steven would reply yes, and much more. Which is a bit concerning seems none of the core things for the game are even developed yet, and they plan to add SO much content. Which sounds great but slows down development significantly.
vmangman wrote: » Osire wrote: » Nagash wrote: » Well the devs have not given a time for release but 2023/2024 seems likely did you not get the joke, we're complaining because of how long its going to take, especially for a project that is so well funded, so well staffed, and has been in dev since 2016 It has been in active development of more than just design on paper since mid Q1/Q2 2017 and they have slowly ramped your their team size and they’re still smaller than AAA studios. 2022 would be 5 years of development which is standard and 2023 would be 6 years which is completely reasonable for an indie studio making a game of this size.
Osire wrote: » Nagash wrote: » Well the devs have not given a time for release but 2023/2024 seems likely did you not get the joke, we're complaining because of how long its going to take, especially for a project that is so well funded, so well staffed, and has been in dev since 2016
Nagash wrote: » Well the devs have not given a time for release but 2023/2024 seems likely
Wandering Mist wrote: » *scratches my head* I wonder where you got the "over 100" devs at Intrepid stat from. As far as I'm aware we haven't been told how many people are currently employed at the studio. Spreading mis-information doesn't do anyone any good.
maouw wrote: » ^ in Jahlon's recent interview, Steven estimated 93 staff in total, but that probably includes more than just devs
daveywavey wrote: » maouw wrote: » ^ in Jahlon's recent interview, Steven estimated 93 staff in total, but that probably includes more than just devs Yeah. Designers, Graphic Artists, Animators, QA, Marketing, Customer Services, and Steven himself, just to name a few off the top of my head. None of those will be writing the actual program code.
Osire wrote: » Yuyukoyay wrote: » So I can play that Harry Potter game and not have to worry about Ashes coming out in the middle of it. what harry potter game yo? im tryna play a harry potter game
Beck Altarr wrote: » . As an example: I am trying to create story lines for the Radio based on Sanctus before the portals re-open. I don't need to know every detail of Sanctus. I do need to know some basics to make sure I am pointing in the right directions. Left to do it all on my own I could end up crafting an entirely different world that risks not only hurting my project that is costing me money, but I could very well hurt the game too, especially if the community thinks what I am producing is legit lore. It's not good for either brand.
Beck Altarr wrote: » This is a bit of a critique based on my observations which are based on nearly 20 years of experience working with Game Dev's as a creator. I was doing Online Radio back in the early 2000's and at the time it was one of the best forms of content creation as most other forms didn't exist back then. I got to learn a lot from great people about how development works and be involved in a lot of early testing. Based on their own You Tube Channel AoC started development in 2016 with their first video being published in Dec 2016 as an early environment demo which was pretty good so some time had already been spent in development. At least 5 years has been put into AoC so far and the average for a good MMORPG is 5-7 years. Star Citizen is going to move that average up a year or two if it ever releases... I also agree most of the current hype was created by a content creator and is trying to be maintained by other creators. However, I.S. is doing nothing to stoke the hype train and keep it moving down the tracks. I'd say they've actually cooled it off quite a bit with their NDA Alpha 1 previews and lack of any real content to show in the past couple months. Current creators are all rehashing the same content and nothing original is really being produced. It's just reactions or opinions many have already done. At best we can argue over who did it or said it first, but in the end it doesn't matter. There is a lot of Creator Action trying to maintain interest in AoC and I am worried that new people are going to see through it all and notice there isn't really much new coming out about the game. Perhaps they are trying to manage expectations. I personally don't think they are anywhere near an Alpha 1 No NDA release state yet. While they have said Covid hasn't really hurt them and they have met or exceeded their internal milestone goals, we don't know what those internal goals are. I think the March Alpha 1 will be delayed until next fall before it happens and I think that would be a benefit to development based on their concerns for delaying it in the 4th place (if you watch their vids they have promoted a fall Alpha multiple times. Just about once a year since 2017 starting with a fall 2018 Alpha) We know that their art department has been able to work more or less unimpeded, but they have faced set backs in engineering issues, such as the Apocalypse Battle Royal where they had to totally rebuild some systems which was a huge delay and more recently their update of the Unreal Engine clearly created another big mess of broken systems they have had to deal with. This means they have to take what they have learned and build in additional buffers to reduce the lost time in the future when their custom systems and Unreal Engine break apart. It will happen again, but how they go about with preventative measures will go a long way but those measures take time to create and implement. These are good things. Breaking stuff early and finding fixes for them means a better, stronger, foundation going forward. Especially at this place in development. Imagine the game launches and more people than expected do something and... well I remember WoW when it launched. The first month was almost unplayable with all the issues. We don't want that with AoC. I hope they can find all the major kinks early and I don't mind if that takes a little more time. We have yet to see most of the systems in any kind of working state. We are getting a lot of combat vids but it's basically the same combat in different environments. This months was a Caravan Siege in a Castle in open PVP, where as the last Caravan siege was team based in a forest. There has been nothing actually new. That is VERY telling of where they actually are in development. We are getting a lot of art, the last 3 months has been mostly Dunir Dwarves with a little bit of Eastern Humans. We have seen nothing but concept art for some Orc Buildings, but nothing much of the actual Orc's themselves. Anyone remember there are Tulnar? This tells me where they are in total game completion is not where I feel they are implying they are at. This is OK. I think they just need to tell us. I'd like to see some kind of document that actually lists in general terms where they are at in regards to their goals. IE: Dunir Dwarven Art/Buildings/Weapons 50% done. Quest lines for Dunir: 30% Tulnar: Art/Buildings/Weapons 10%. Etc. Give us a ball park in some general terms. I get they don't want to give too much away, it also doesn't help sell or hype the game. Yes, I know Steven is personally funding the game... except that's also not entirely true and a different conversation for another time. Let's just say the Cash shop isn't priced like any other F2P MMO out there if they didn't need our cash and they wouldn't have tried having a cash shop for Apoc, which was supposed to be a testing ground only, if they are not projecting a need for our money to fund the game. AoC is likely to cost 60-100 million. Steven has committed to personally up to 40 million. WE are going to fund this game to completion. We have not seen anything economy related yet, such as stock exchange, player shops, or even crafting. Some limited gathering is about it. This is a major system that will govern many of the others. Other than buying houses I don't think we've seen anything else economy related. I am not saying any of this to be negative. Just pointing out what I see are facts. This is going to be a big game and it's going to take a lot of time, but with the recent hype, it's also going to burn out some potential players. I am sure I am not alone in thinking this game was about 1 year out when I first came on board back in June. I've since watched every video on their channel, many twice, and it's clear their communication involves a lot of omission about their actual state of the game. I'd say it's still currently more of a run around and do very basic things than it is to where they would like us to believe the game is. This comes down to a lack of good communication. They don't even have an Official Creators program which they talked about months ago and with the Lazy Peon bringing in so many new creators that should have been a top priority but there isn't so much as a peep about it. There are the O.G. Creators who have some special status and access from their previous program but there is nothing for the new creators like myself. I'm more of a Let's play and react guy, I want to share the experience with my community and there is nothing for me to do that hasn't already been done to death with the limited content available. I'm also working on the only access anywhere audio format Phoenix Radio which is targeted for the Role Play Community but also a great resource for news and updates while showcasing other community creations, I can't get any real conversations going with anyone at I.S. to help me create anything to support AoC and I think other Role Players feel the same since none of them are reaching out to be involved with the radio either. Indications of the true state of the game. Which is O.K. if they were a little more open/honest with their communication. They talk a lot about how good their communication is with the community. They shouldn't, it's been disappointing, when I look at other games I've been apart of, even earlier in development. I think they spend a lot of time with certain creators and older community members and that may be skewing their perception, but unless you are constantly logged into their discord to catch a few moments here or there there really isn't any community communication. They used to do multiple streams per month, that ended years ago. They used to start their streams with a short interview with a content creator, a brilliant idea... not any more. I look at Wingman's Hanger from the Old Star Citizen days. Descent Studios and Defiance did weekly updates online or the access I had to Dev's, especially lore masters to come up with fun teases and story lines for my Radio Projects. I look back at the great relationships creators had with NetDevil before NCSoft killed them off. I can still chat with Eric Peterson easily. My point is, what we are told isn't exactly the truth. Not saying anyone is lying. It's more by omission. I get they don't want to hurt their product or give anything away, but what they are doing it letting the creator community create content that may not be accurate and could end up being misleading about the end product. I want to support AoC as much as I can, but I am also a realist. The hype train is coasting to a stop and they have many creators who are trying to stoke the fire but without any help from I.S. it's going to burn out and while some people will stay regardless many will move on and not all will return and there are already a growing number of commentators taking shots at I.S. and sadly negativity grows faster than positivity and postivitity is harder to maintain. As an example: I am trying to create story lines for the Radio based on Sanctus before the portals re-open. I don't need to know every detail of Sanctus. I do need to know some basics to make sure I am pointing in the right directions. Left to do it all on my own I could end up crafting an entirely different world that risks not only hurting my project that is costing me money, but I could very well hurt the game too, especially if the community thinks what I am producing is legit lore. It's not good for either brand. I fully expect to see another delay in No NDA Alpha 1 before March next year. Which isn't a bad thing. I predicted the current delay. I think they are a good year from a serious Alpha 1 Testing. I know my experiences are anecdotal. My point is, I want them to take the time to develop the systems to be a robust as possible. I think they also need to be a little more open about the actual state of the game because what they are showing us doesn't look like there is much progression in the past few months. Not all of the systems are going to play nice together, we get that, they need to balance the systems, they need to balance what they share with the community and they need to balance the 8 classes and 64 variations. It's a big to do list. They are doing things few other games have even attempted. I am confident they can and will do it. Given enough time...
Cold 0ne FTB wrote: » Beck Altarr wrote: » . As an example: I am trying to create story lines for the Radio based on Sanctus before the portals re-open. I don't need to know every detail of Sanctus. I do need to know some basics to make sure I am pointing in the right directions. Left to do it all on my own I could end up crafting an entirely different world that risks not only hurting my project that is costing me money, but I could very well hurt the game too, especially if the community thinks what I am producing is legit lore. It's not good for either brand. I wouldn't hold your breath on getting enough lore for a backstory prelaunch. Steven is holding most of it close to the chest.
Beck Altarr wrote: » If I craft the world of Sanctus for my Radio Dramas and I sell it convincingly, then those who come across my work will take it as gospel
FuryBladeborne wrote: » @Beck Altarr I don't want to dig through your post for quotes, so I will just list a couple of reactions. My personal opinion is that driving the hype train while so far out is not a good idea. It's just not going to stay high energy for the number of years that production is still happening. The official content creators program is locked. I don't know their reasons for this, but not pushing the hype train years before release seems like a good one. I don't feel like I.S. is concealing their lack of progress to the community. Pre-Alpha (where we have been until recently) means systems haven't even reached formal testing. As in, systems are not even made yet to be tested. Alpha means the first phase of testing.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle#:~:text=Alpha software is not thoroughly,it is released to customers.&text=At this time, the software,the software as a product. I know that everyone would like things to be faster, but with large projects such as this, it is more likely to be slower than faster. Planning fallacies are common and difficult to overcome. Unless you use a statistical analysis of similar projects, any estimate given is more likely to be closer to a best case scenario than a realistic one. Additionally, any timeframe given that is not met will only increase the discontent of fans. Cyberpunk 2077 announced another one month delay recently and developers have been receiving death threats over the delay. The issue of announcing schedules is much worse than it probably seems.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_fallacy#:~:text=The planning fallacy is a,and underestimate the time needed.https://www.dailysabah.com/life/cyberpunk-2077-in-between-never-ending-delays-crunch-and-death-threats/news Because I want to shorten this post, I will just say that asking for progress percentages is effectively equal to asking for completion dates. I really hope they are able to stick to the current dates that they have finally given us
