Consumables

Please for the love of all that's good do NOT make consumables powerful, or they will completely dominated every META.

Food, OK. Status effect removers? OK.

But do not make an endless list of potions that buff every stat imaginable for some period of time. It's another giant layer of arbitrary non-intuitive nonsense for people to learn about, and another checklist of chores that elite guilds are all going to require for their members to participate in.

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Infamouse

I dont mind consumes but they have a tendency to become musts and break things. I also hate limited/time or location gated buffs that are essentially consumables (thinking about WoW here). It adds a small element of being the prepared player will usually result in you being more successful than those who are unprepared, but at times in WoW and L2 it became an extremely tedious chore that was monotonous and added nothing because everyone was in the same well coordinated routine, and it was literally just a needless time-sink.

Sathrago

Xez wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Xez wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Xez wrote: »

I think I just realized why I detest them so much: they are basically a form of pay to win. Yea, paying with in-game gold or whatever, but still.

LOL

Such a well reasoned thoughtful retort to my argument. At least the poster above actually replied with some semblance of logic even if I disagree with it.

When you're claiming that in-game potions are Pay To Win, "LOL" is pretty much the only response.

Once you get a reasoned thoughtful argument, you can expect a reasoned thoughtful answer!

No, you're just an asshat with no argument, get out of here if you don't have anything constructive to say.

I did reason out several arguments.

The devs admit there is no way they can possibly stop all RMT, so this IS actually a matter of "pay to win" under the commonly accepted definition which you're "LOL" at me was based on. That was something that is SO OBVIOUS I thought that didn't even have to be said, but for dense morons like you I guess I have to spell that out.

But even with that completely aside, what about my actual POINT, which is that it is literally just BUYING TEMPORARY POWER for your character with GOLD. Why is that a POSITIVE thing to have in a game

You need to calm down.

At this point you are going too fanatical with your idea. Are you wanting no consumables now since all of "it is literally just BUYING TEMPORARY POWER for your character with GOLD."?

Potions and other consumables will be in the game no matter how hard you complain because it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

So let's get back to the original post of the thread. Dont make consumables op. Sure no ones disagreeing with that. But we dont want them to be useless either.

In your anger you are basically condemning them to the point that they shouldnt even be in the game, clarify what you want and maybe people will give better feedback.

I personally liked the witcher potion idea.

Xez

Sathrago wrote: »

Xez wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Xez wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Xez wrote: »

I think I just realized why I detest them so much: they are basically a form of pay to win. Yea, paying with in-game gold or whatever, but still.

LOL

Such a well reasoned thoughtful retort to my argument. At least the poster above actually replied with some semblance of logic even if I disagree with it.

When you're claiming that in-game potions are Pay To Win, "LOL" is pretty much the only response.

Once you get a reasoned thoughtful argument, you can expect a reasoned thoughtful answer!

No, you're just an asshat with no argument, get out of here if you don't have anything constructive to say.

I did reason out several arguments.

The devs admit there is no way they can possibly stop all RMT, so this IS actually a matter of "pay to win" under the commonly accepted definition which you're "LOL" at me was based on. That was something that is SO OBVIOUS I thought that didn't even have to be said, but for dense morons like you I guess I have to spell that out.

But even with that completely aside, what about my actual POINT, which is that it is literally just BUYING TEMPORARY POWER for your character with GOLD. Why is that a POSITIVE thing to have in a game

You need to calm down.

At this point you are going too fanatical with your idea. Are you wanting no consumables now since all of "it is literally just BUYING TEMPORARY POWER for your character with GOLD."?

Potions and other consumables will be in the game no matter how hard you complain because it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

So let's get back to the original post of the thread. Dont make consumables op. Sure no ones disagreeing with that. But we dont want them to be useless either.

In your anger you are basically condemning them to the point that they shouldnt even be in the game, clarify what you want and maybe people will give better feedback.

I personally liked the witcher potion idea.

I just want people to actually question what and why things really exist in a game at the most fundamental level. I'm just asking the question, I never said there shouldn't be ANY consumables period.

My liberal use of capitalization isn't to express any anger I have, but to facilitate clarity of what I'm trying to express. I'm not angry, but if someone comes at me with a insulting vitriolic response, I have no problem insulting them back likewise.

neuroguy

Xez wrote: »

Poko wrote: »

I feel like consumables give another layer of skill expression. If a player can handle using them mid combat to get rid of debuffs and such I think that's cool

Using a consumable is not "skill". All it does is add another layer of complexity to the game that is totally arbitrary.

Until you do the research and look at every possible potion, it's effects, how much it costs to buy or how much to farm the ingredients, you could be completely wasting your time and/or money doing a completely inferior strategy for something. That is the sort of complexity I absolutely HATE. Complexity that is just THERE for the sake of being there. Categories of things that a new player of a game might COMPLETELY be oblivious to because it is NOT something that is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS and LOGICAL and INTEGRAL to the base mechanic of the game, which is actually COMBAT.

The game needs to be built around the COMBAT and built UP from there. This is the ENTIRE problem with virtually every modern game's design, ESPECIALLY MMO's. Everything is built from the TOP DOWN instead of BOTTOM UP. Designers have all these ideas they want to throw into a game before they've even started writing a single line of code.

I kinda see your argument here. But I think you're making an assumption that consumables can't be implemented well. I am personally a hoarder and have like a million potions I keep just "in case" when I play skyrim for example. I don't use them often because I don't know their real value and can't be bothered to do the math of "is it worth it to use for this fight". But I will say this, I really absolutely love how path of exile handles "consumable" potions. I think if AoC takes the consumable idea from PoE and slightly modifies it, it would be freaking amazing.

For those unfamiliar you will have a limited number of potions (5 in PoE but I think 3-5 is a healthy number) and in poe they refill as you kill monsters. In most MMOs I've played potions have an internal cooldown, so if you just remove the refill on monster kill component and let them refill on cooldown for permanent use, that would be great. This way the player will still have to prepare and make choices of which potions they will take to a given battle/dungeon/encounter. Keeping more in your inventory would require micro-managing outside of combat which I think is fine (or if you really hate it you can propose a system where swapping potion types needs to be done in a node).

This would also still be crafting friendly. The quality of the potion bottle (from some crafting profession) can set the cooldown timer where the higher quality the bottle, the faster the cooldown ends. While you will need to fill the bottles themselves with the potion which has its own profession (herbalism or w/e it's called in AoC). So you could upgrade your potion with its content, you could upgrade the bottle and they would be ~permanent (I would like them to need refilling after a very large number of re-use which may or may not be tied to bottle quality). This way it is no longer a hassle to keep track of a million types, can be min-maxed for the l33t players, can be flexibly adjusted to suit situational needs, is not prone to hoarding tendencies, and functionally works like a trinket or piece of gear. Anyways, that's just one solution, there are ways of changing it from the system you hate to something more palatable.

Noaani

neuroguy wrote: »

I think if AoC takes the consumable idea from PoE and slightly modifies it, it would be freaking amazing.

I agree.

I'd like to see a system where we have a limited number of potions that we can use (3-5 as you say), as I think that creates the scope to be able to introduce far more options of potion without things becoming overpowered.

I also like the idea of creating potion bottles seperate from the potions themselves, and having stats on the bottles that effect the potion. One crafting class to make the bottles, and another to make the actual potion with which we fill the bottles.

An example of this could be that one bottle type increases the duration at which the potion in it takes effect, and another may reduce the duration. With this, a player could put a resistance or stat buff in the bottle that increases the duration, so that the buff in question is applied for a longer period of time. That player could then also place a HoT in the bottle that reduces the duration, so the healing effect happens faster.

This kind of thing could add a whole lot more options to players - or at least, more viable options. In most games, you can't simply take along an additional stack of mana potions and use them twice as often, but with this idea, you could dedicate 2 of the 3-5 potion slots you have to mana potions, and you are then able to use that mana potion twice as often - but at the expense of not being able to have a different potion in that slot.

If the game has 3 slots, then you may want a heal potion, a mana potion and a resistence potion, but that means you can't take a speed buff, or an armor potion, or a damage increasing potion, or an anti-CC potion, or a second heal potion. Basically, more options - but in a way that it is obvious what each potential choice does for you.

neuroguy

Noaani wrote: »

This kind of thing could add a whole lot more options to players - or at least, more viable options. In most games, you can't simply take along an additional stack of mana potions and use them twice as often, but with this idea, you could dedicate 2 of the 3-5 potion slots you have to mana potions, and you are then able to use that mana potion twice as often - but at the expense of not being able to have a different potion in that slot.

If the game has 3 slots, then you may want a heal potion, a mana potion and a resistence potion, but that means you can't take a speed buff, or an armor potion, or a damage increasing potion, or an anti-CC potion, or a second heal potion. Basically, more options - but in a way that it is obvious what each potential choice does for you.

Yeah that's exactly the kind of decision making that PoE's system allows which feels very custom to your personal particular needs given your gear and build.

akabear

Consumables do provide a monetary sink in game that is much needed or wealth value becomes deminished if limited things to spend on.

New World had different tiers and types potions and foods relative to invidiual crating activities, gathering and pve, pvp... if they also had better inventory management it would be great but it was a good start to a concept!
They improved the result but were not so significant to make it a must have or game changer.

That is a direction I would like to see.

Noaani

neuroguy wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This kind of thing could add a whole lot more options to players - or at least, more viable options. In most games, you can't simply take along an additional stack of mana potions and use them twice as often, but with this idea, you could dedicate 2 of the 3-5 potion slots you have to mana potions, and you are then able to use that mana potion twice as often - but at the expense of not being able to have a different potion in that slot.

If the game has 3 slots, then you may want a heal potion, a mana potion and a resistence potion, but that means you can't take a speed buff, or an armor potion, or a damage increasing potion, or an anti-CC potion, or a second heal potion. Basically, more options - but in a way that it is obvious what each potential choice does for you.

Yeah that's exactly the kind of decision making that PoE's system allows which feels very custom to your personal particular needs given your gear and build.

Indeed.

I still wish GGG would make a PoE based MMO - I'd play it in a heartbeat.

The only thing from their potion system that I don't think would work in an MMO (which you covered above anway) is the refill method used.

The need to kill to refill works in an ARPG if the content is all designed around it (which is why literally all bosses in PoE have waves of adds). Switching this up to a need to purchase refills through the games regular economy, and a timer on the potions (which PoE does also have, iirc), and you do have a really good solution.

daveywavey

Xez wrote: »

No, you're just an asshat with no argument, get out of here if you don't have anything constructive to say.

I did reason out several arguments.

The devs admit there is no way they can possibly stop all RMT, so this IS actually a matter of "pay to win" under the commonly accepted definition which you're "LOL" at me was based on. That was something that is SO OBVIOUS I thought that didn't even have to be said, but for dense morons like you I guess I have to spell that out.

But even with that completely aside, what about my actual POINT, which is that it is literally just BUYING TEMPORARY POWER for your character with GOLD. Why is that a POSITIVE thing to have in a game

*sigh* - Ok, we're doing this.....

No, you "wrote" out several arguments. You didn't "reason" them out.

You want to stop potions cos you can buy them with in-game gold, but you're happy to have gear and food, that can also be bought with in-game gold. The Mayorship of every Economic Node will be bought with in-game gold, too. Do you want that removed from game, also?

You don't want potions cos you have to actually read what they do and work out which one works for you. Why on Verra should that stop potions from being in-game? If you want to be effective, put a little effort in. You shouldn't try and dumb down the game just cos you can't be arsed doing some reading.

You don't like potions because hardcore guilds are going to want their members to use them. Well, yeah, of course they will. If it increases their efficiency in battle, then why would you not want your raid group to be using them? Even if all they did was to restore a little Health or Magic, I'd still want to be using them.

You're saying that the ability to buy potions with in-game gold to help improve your playstyle is a bad thing, but why shouldn't you be able to use your in-game gold to help improve your playstyle? You've worked for it, you've earned it, so you get to spend it where you choose. It's better than just hoarding it up doing nothing. Make it work for you.

You say that "NOBODY" likes using temporary items. Blatant fallacy. Who are you to speak for the whole of the playerbase? I know that I like using potions, and there will be many others like me.

And finally, just to echo @Sathrago - you might want to ease up on the "asshat" and the "dense moron" stuff. You're lucky that I don't give a shit about what you think of me, but if you pulled that on someone else, they might have you banned. So, simmer down, slayer...

**Apologies to the rest of you for the forum-essay**

McShave

I kinda agree with OP where I don't want potions to be super powerful, but I would like there to be all the potion options. One thing tho, I don't want to lose a fight to someone just because they have the potion that counters my build. If the potions are going to be strong, then make them difficult to get.

Crosim

Wow, this thread got pretty headed. Maybe some of you should ... have a drink.

In all seriousness, I can understand a dislike of potions. Always feels bad in a game when you are like doing something, PvP happens, you are an inch from easy victory, and then your opponent pops a potion. Yikes, thats rough. Hey, you almost killed them once, so just do it again ... but then you get low, and have to use YOUR resources to fight this person. Kind of makes it a loss even if you win, ya know?

Despite all of that, I'd still want them in game over not having them. My issue is with 'buff' potions and things of that nature. I feel like food and class buffs should take the reins of long lasting stat bumps. ESPECIALLY, if things stack (Oh no, that caps lock thing is contagious) If you want to throw in potions with buffs I would enjoy the 'toxic bar' option, a kind of kiss/curse buff (Attack faster, but are easier to hit etc) , or how spices worked in SWG with a high and then a crash.

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