I added a video you may enjoy to showcase what I meant with active combat via dodge roll and block from eso and why I think those functions should be incorporated into Ashes
I agree 100% with active dodge/block. It makes combat feel modern and alive.
I dont agree that damage abilities before block/dodge cancelling should output dmg to an enemy target. Just like the animation of a damage ability is cancelled because the player decided to block/dodge, so should the output be cancelled. (And same for ANY action before block/dodge).
Btw I am afraid that without tester feedback, AoC will implement only a 'buff-proc' condition, based on stats, in which a character will have reduced income dmg for a period of time, perhaps accompanied by a thematic animation upon the proc of the buff., as opposed to active block/dodge tied to a control key.
Many players suggest many secondary elements such as gathering minigames or strange crafting professions, roleplay activities and other, which in reality, will be used by a tiny part of the global population of AoC.
AoC itself seems keen to add many secondary gameplay activities, in addition to the grand systems.
Having heard Steven himself saying that implementing active block seemed difficult, or we cant have many animations based on equiped weapons, worries when it comes to combat.
Still I am definatly playing AoC, because combat isn't the only element of sn mmorpg. Combat can be found on lame games like BRs.
However remember, combat is much more important that in depth tavern games and activities or fully functional houses, and it deserves GREAT attention.
Having said that, I dont want to see ESO combat or BDO combat. Something closer to Tera Online. That's my personal thought on perfect combat.
Too much active combat elements doesn't work in MMORPGs.
We're talking about a game with mass scale combat. You're going to be attacked by a lot of enemies at once. It's not a game designed for 1v1 or smale scale combat.
So, how are you supposed to use blocking etc in a meaningful way with hundreds of players around you?
In the situations where it does work, the players with low ping (close to servers) would have a huge advantage on timing.
It's one of the reasons I'm still sceptical of the whole combat system, with the action portion that is. But I assume they will keep the action combat skills that doesn't require very high accuracy or timing.
Need to remember also that the servers are not set up to register hits etc nearly as often as for example a normal multiplayer game, and that could also make it so when you see an incoming attack and block, it's already too late to react according to the server.
I never really liked the combat in ESO. I really don't like its emphasis on animation cancelling. I much prefer the occasional animation cancel, with much more emphasis on timing, comboing, and aiming your abilties correctly.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I never really liked the combat in ESO. I really don't like its emphasis on animation cancelling. I much prefer the occasional animation cancel, with much more emphasis on timing, comboing, and aiming your abilties correctly.
Yeah I agree the animation cancelling was never my favorite part. You can see in my vid that I rarely (if ever) use it. Most of the time its probably accidental because their servers are so bad right now the game isnt registering buttons let alone ani cancelling so people are hitting buttons as much as possible to get a skill to fire off correctly.
I wasnt even moving or rolling much as I was trying to get skills to fire
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I added a video you may enjoy to showcase what I meant with active combat via dodge roll and block from eso and why I think those functions should be incorporated into Ashes
I agree 100% with active dodge/block. It makes combat feel modern and alive.
I dont agree that damage abilities before block/dodge cancelling should output dmg to an enemy target. Just like the animation of a damage ability is cancelled because the player decided to block/dodge, so should the output be cancelled. (And same for ANY action before block/dodge).
Btw I am afraid that without tester feedback, AoC will implement only a 'buff-proc' condition, based on stats, in which a character will have reduced income dmg for a period of time, perhaps accompanied by a thematic animation upon the proc of the buff., as opposed to active block/dodge tied to a control key.
Yes I agree damage should always only register with the animation of an ability. One of the reasons I wanted the CD to apply consequetively to all block/dodge/cc break is so that it would be impossible to sequentially use them for that with a 3 second CD for any of them to be activated.
You can see in my vid that theres always a decent window between me doing many of those as I'm a fan of honest gameplay.
Unfortunatly, even though it looks ugly, AC is a must for competitive gameplay.
It's up to the developers to rise above and beyond and implement true action/reaction combat without leaving ANY room for AC. Zero. Maybe by 2030...
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Too much active combat elements doesn't work in MMORPGs.
We're talking about a game with mass scale combat. You're going to be attacked by a lot of enemies at once. It's not a game designed for 1v1 or smale scale combat.
So, how are you supposed to use blocking etc in a meaningful way with hundreds of players around you?
In the situations where it does work, the players with low ping (close to servers) would have a huge advantage on timing.
It's one of the reasons I'm still sceptical of the whole combat system, with the action portion that is. But I assume they will keep the action combat skills that doesn't require very high accuracy or timing.
Need to remember also that the servers are not set up to register hits etc nearly as often as for example a normal multiplayer game, and that could also make it so when you see an incoming attack and block, it's already too late to react according to the server.
Many games with mass scale have active combat, the physics behind it isnt difficult to implement as much as making sure the client and servers are actually up to date. ESO's using a custom/hybrid engine from 2007. And while their servers are bogged up right now, for a long time there they had seamless gameplay for the combat in 2016 (with a different set of issues not related to combat being cheat engine users)
Active block is not difficult at all to implement, its the same as incorporating movement for all players around you and casting abilities. Its making sure you cant exploit it with ani cancelling thats important. Hence my suggestions in my full post as well as throughout the thread. 3 second tied cooldown with active dodge and cc break
Players with long ping will always have a hard time wether it be casting abilities, activating heals, or any movement at all or seeing what others do. Even if there wasnt active block or dodge, there will be casted block and dodge that they will have the same issues with. Whats your solution?
I agree that skepticsm of the combat hybrid system is paramount because combat is what WILL make or break a games population. The gaming world and technology have drastically evolved and the days of eating up damage with minutes long cooldowns is a relic of the past.
No one I know actually feels that taking "turns" in combat is fun or engaging. I truly feel that adding in an additional feature here to compliment their any playstyle armor and class mechanics will 100% be a positive with a proper 3 second Cooldown to prevent spastic gameplay and server stress. Turning it into a skillfull timed reactionary action game to supliment abilities rather than just running away, kiting, or eating up damage.
That kind of gameplay will just bring forth a tanky playstyle for everyone who will spec into nothing but cc's and range damage.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Unfortunatly, even though it looks ugly, AC is a must for competitive gameplay.
It's up to the developers to rise above and beyond and implement true action/reaction combat without leaving ANY room for AC. Zero. Maybe by 2030...
Im not so sure it is, I did pretty well without using it. I had to spec more health (of course) but I was functional without relying on it. I think it does make the time to kill (TTK) much faster, but required? I dont think so.
If they make proper abilities, CC's, and a counter CC break mechanic (with cooldown) available it wouldnt need ani cancelling.
Especially since AOC isnt balancing around 1v1's but for making classes unique in having hard counters. That works even better with active block and roll dodge because all it does is make the game more engaging and rewarding for paying attention.
I never really liked the combat in ESO. I really don't like its emphasis on animation cancelling. I much prefer the occasional animation cancel, with much more emphasis on timing, comboing, and aiming your abilties correctly.
This is one of the reasons I'm constantly promoting GW2 combat as the gold standard of MMO combat over ESO or similar combat systems. Every complaint someone has about ESO GW2 has an answer for.
Stamina-spamming? The only resources in GW2 are your cooldowns (with some exceptions).
Dodge/Block spamming? Dodging has 2 charges that recharge over time, and blocking is tied to cooldown skills in GW2.
Enjoy tab-target gameplay over Action combat gameplay? GW2 lets you do either without needing to balance the game around having two different combat systems because all skills are Action at the core but allow tab-target. This last point is what scares me about AoC. AoC is trying to split combat into two separate systems instead of merging them into one, and that's going to create so many problems, from balance to gameplay feel.
Unfortunatly, even though it looks ugly, AC is a must for competitive gameplay.
It's up to the developers to rise above and beyond and implement true action/reaction combat without leaving ANY room for AC. Zero. Maybe by 2030...
This is just absolutely not true. AC is just an unintentional side-effect of some combat systems that just adds a higher skill ceiling. It doesn't inherently add or remove anything from gameplay except adding more to the learning curve for very little reason.
Just look at the Smash Bros. series. Melee had L-cancelling which you were required to learn to be able to play at the highest level, but later series removed it, and you don't see anyone saying Smash Ultimate combat is lacking because of it. In fact absolutely no one even brings it up, because it's ridiculous to argue for it.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I never really liked the combat in ESO. I really don't like its emphasis on animation cancelling. I much prefer the occasional animation cancel, with much more emphasis on timing, comboing, and aiming your abilties correctly.
This is one of the reasons I'm constantly promoting GW2 combat as the gold standard of MMO combat over ESO or similar combat systems. Every complaint someone has about ESO GW2 has an answer for.
Stamina-spamming? The only resources in GW2 are your cooldowns (with some exceptions).
Dodge/Block spamming? Dodging has 2 charges that recharge over time, and blocking is tied to cooldown skills in GW2.
Enjoy tab-target gameplay over Action combat gameplay? GW2 lets you do either without needing to balance the game around having two different combat systems because all skills are Action at the core but allow tab-target. This last point is what scares me about AoC. AoC is trying to split combat into two separate systems instead of merging them into one, and that's going to create so many problems, from balance to gameplay feel.
Unfortunatly, even though it looks ugly, AC is a must for competitive gameplay.
It's up to the developers to rise above and beyond and implement true action/reaction combat without leaving ANY room for AC. Zero. Maybe by 2030...
This is just absolutely not true. AC is just an unintentional side-effect of some combat systems that just adds a higher skill ceiling. It doesn't inherently add or remove anything from gameplay except adding more to the learning curve for very little reason.
Just look at the Smash Bros. series. Melee had L-cancelling which you were required to learn to be able to play at the highest level, but later series removed it, and you don't see anyone saying Smash Ultimate combat is lacking because of it. In fact absolutely no one even brings it up, because it's ridiculous to argue for it.
Well said. I'm unfamiliar with GW2 but it sounds similar to my original proposal in my main post.
I agree with your concerns on the combat system, it needs to be good from a mechanical and design standpoint. Because the little details in how combat flows affects all other parts of player interaction and abilities functional use.
Its arguably the most delicate area that requires hyperfocus and tester input from a large demographic of playtesters. But I'm willing to bet most would agree with active reactionary based combat being far better over stationary stiff combat with turn-based elements.
I never really liked the combat in ESO. I really don't like its emphasis on animation cancelling. I much prefer the occasional animation cancel, with much more emphasis on timing, comboing, and aiming your abilties correctly.
This is one of the reasons I'm constantly promoting GW2 combat as the gold standard of MMO combat over ESO or similar combat systems. Every complaint someone has about ESO GW2 has an answer for.
Oh man. GW2 was a lot of fun. Sadly I had to quit cuz of the lack of end game content. If only GW2 had a sub fee model, man it would be so good.
Well... I would definitely prefer to have active block and dodge.
There might be a special resource for that with some limits, such as:
- tanks may unlock a passive ability to increase their block mitigation and time of blocking before getting exhausted, but have no abilites to improve dodging;
- rogues and rangers may activate a passive ability to increase the number of possible dodges, but have no abilities to improve blocking;
- mages due to the lack of the passives may dodge or block one or two times before they get "tired", and have to relay on their damage shield abilities and teleport strikes.
Something like that:)
Also, I played a lot in ESO (and still playing). I can't say tho its system of blocking and dodging is the best. It works pretty well, but looks too unnatural. For me, it is implemented better in Blade&Soul. Every single class there has a double-S (SS) ability with some cooldown to avoid damage. Also, some of the classes such as Kung-Fu Masters and Sword Masters have an active block ability, and some have additional dodge abilites, again, with some cooldowns. It seems fresh and interesting and perfectly goes with action combat system.
From what I understood (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it seems the games combat design is leaning more to static attack and defense where you just eat the damage instead of having a bit more active control with timed reactionary based combat. And only certain classes and skills will give you the ability to dodge or block.
I think this is taking away from a possible important aspect of combat, namely being the control and reaction based portion of implementing hybrid active/tab target combat.
Here I have to disagree. Different roles should be reacting in different ways and while some will naturally work with a block/dodge/party mechanic, some just wouldn't make sense.
For example a mage isnt mean to be athletic, they're meant to be smart. So having them rolling here there and everywhere makes no sense. They're more likely to use a spell to try and block which would be skill they learn. A rogue on the other hand is all about being fast, and so dodging spells etc makes sense for them. Tanks are great big lumbering things that wont be rolling around but then they can block with their shield if they have one equip. Fighters are less likely to be blocking or rolling around but a parry is a good option in melee.
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NelsonRebelMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
From what I understood (and please correct me if I'm wrong) it seems the games combat design is leaning more to static attack and defense where you just eat the damage instead of having a bit more active control with timed reactionary based combat. And only certain classes and skills will give you the ability to dodge or block.
I think this is taking away from a possible important aspect of combat, namely being the control and reaction based portion of implementing hybrid active/tab target combat.
Here I have to disagree. Different roles should be reacting in different ways and while some will naturally work with a block/dodge/party mechanic, some just wouldn't make sense.
For example a mage isnt mean to be athletic, they're meant to be smart. So having them rolling here there and everywhere makes no sense. They're more likely to use a spell to try and block which would be skill they learn. A rogue on the other hand is all about being fast, and so dodging spells etc makes sense for them. Tanks are great big lumbering things that wont be rolling around but then they can block with their shield if they have one equip. Fighters are less likely to be blocking or rolling around but a parry is a good option in melee.
I dont agree at all. I'm of the opinion that if you have a body and you're out of resources why would you not physically move or block with whatever you had.
Its obviously not going to be as efficient as having an actual shield to block or being as fast as a rogues mobility but the survival instinct is basic.
Makes no sense from a combat or immersive perspective why I would be a walking plank of wood just eating damage waiting for an arbitrary cooldown
Im a magic character in most of my games but Im always still a melee fighter. Just with magic
So the mechanics of being a melee warrior make it a neccessity to have in this game. That or eliminate all magic melee possibilities because it wouldnt make sense why a magical warrior wouldnt do the same thing a normal warrior would. Namely block and dodge
I showcased that exact style in the video at the bottom of my post with Elder Scrolls online
This thread hasn't seen any discussion in a while, but I'll say that I just learned of AoC recently, and I'm fully convinced that it'll be one of the best MMO's created... With that being said, if it successfully manages to implement an active combat system, it will have no equal.
There is nothing worse than a game where, especially in high-level end game content, you're left to resort to button mashing. Doesn't matter what else the game offers, that just leaves combat dead boring. AoC needs to focus heavily on a combat system that rewards timing, placement, and understanding the cooldowns of your skills and your opponents. I think that requires a number of considerations, but a cooldown-based dodge/block component is such an easy first step to achieving that.
Idk if this post will notify any devs to revisit this thread, but I pray it does. Add this to your radar @StevenSharif !!
This thread hasn't seen any discussion in a while, but I'll say that I just learned of AoC recently, and I'm fully convinced that it'll be one of the best MMO's created... With that being said, if it successfully manages to implement an active combat system, it will have no equal.
There is nothing worse than a game where, especially in high-level end game content, you're left to resort to button mashing. Doesn't matter what else the game offers, that just leaves combat dead boring. AoC needs to focus heavily on a combat system that rewards timing, placement, and understanding the cooldowns of your skills and your opponents. I think that requires a number of considerations, but a cooldown-based dodge/block component is such an easy first step to achieving that.
Idk if this post will notify any devs to revisit this thread, but I pray it does. Add this to your radar @StevenSharif !!
Having to focus and do things like counter and move and dodge during combat is a big upgrade from stand and rotate the skill bar combat of 99% of MMOs. Btw we did focus a lot on combat in the previous years. We had a whole game mode called ''Ashes of Creation Apocalypse'' (it became its own game with cash shop + BR theme etc etc highly controversial stuff but let's put that aside xd). In APOC (as it's called) the combat was quite engaging but melee combat lacked depth - I suggest watching those old footages. We are still waiting for Intrepid to add the ''active'' bits of combat to the alpha gameplay. At least we have the light attacks atm instead of auto attacks soo that's something 👻
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Having to focus and do things like counter and move and dodge during combat is a big upgrade from stand and rotate the skill bar combat of 99% of MMOs.
Um. Because you left out the RPG in MMORPG.
The whole point of an RPG is that characters should be better at the abilities than players are.
In any RPG, I should be able to place points to increase my character's dodge abilities to surpass anything I as a player, can do physically... including hitting a dodge/roll button.
The only issue I have with too many active elements in combat is that it often does not scale well in large-scale combat.
It makes great sense in duels or small scale PvP, but what I experienced in most such MMOs is that in large scale, it becomes a "perma CC knockdown insta death" masacre once you get within vision range of your target and PvP is dominated by ranged classes, rendering melee classes useless.
Having accuracy and dodge calculated by stats rather than active play does not sound too bad in my eyes. That's how oldschool MMORPGs used to be and frankly, those were much more enjoyable than the ones we got the past decade.
The only issue I have with too many active elements in combat is that it often does not scale well in large-scale combat.
It makes great sense in duels or small scale PvP, but what I experienced in most such MMOs is that in large scale, it becomes a "perma CC knockdown insta death" masacre once you get within vision range of your target and PvP is dominated by ranged classes, rendering melee classes useless.
Having accuracy and dodge calculated by stats rather than active play does not sound too bad in my eyes. That's how oldschool MMORPGs used to be and frankly, those were much more enjoyable than the ones we got the past decade.
You do realize that pure stat game you wish for is 100% worse for melee players in large scale PvP, yes? If there's no active, reliable dodge, how exactly is a melee fighter meant to get in range of a group of ranged casters? Are they meant to depend on the luck of their evasion stat?
Active gameplay is a must for engaging combat. No one has fun swinging stat sticks and praying that RNG favors you. To build on what was said earlier, winning at checkers is satisfying, but playing soccer is fun.
Having to focus and do things like counter and move and dodge during combat is a big upgrade from stand and rotate the skill bar combat of 99% of MMOs.
Um. Because you left out the RPG in MMORPG.
The whole point of an RPG is that characters should be better at the abilities than players are.
In any RPG, I should be able to place points to increase my character's dodge abilities to surpass anything I as a player, can do physically... including hitting a dodge/roll button.
@Dygz I don't think it is to do with the ''RPG'' part or anything. And honestly ''character being better than a player'' is a sad excuse for having a boring combat system. Sure, old school MMOs had that (because of many reasons including tech limitations) and RPG games in general use stats (which, again for certain reasons) to determine the outcome of fights. It doesn't mean that a game released in 2021+ (fucking 2021+) RPG or not should have a passive combat system and let the character ''do the thing''.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Comments
I agree 100% with active dodge/block. It makes combat feel modern and alive.
I dont agree that damage abilities before block/dodge cancelling should output dmg to an enemy target. Just like the animation of a damage ability is cancelled because the player decided to block/dodge, so should the output be cancelled. (And same for ANY action before block/dodge).
Btw I am afraid that without tester feedback, AoC will implement only a 'buff-proc' condition, based on stats, in which a character will have reduced income dmg for a period of time, perhaps accompanied by a thematic animation upon the proc of the buff., as opposed to active block/dodge tied to a control key.
AoC itself seems keen to add many secondary gameplay activities, in addition to the grand systems.
Having heard Steven himself saying that implementing active block seemed difficult, or we cant have many animations based on equiped weapons, worries when it comes to combat.
Still I am definatly playing AoC, because combat isn't the only element of sn mmorpg. Combat can be found on lame games like BRs.
However remember, combat is much more important that in depth tavern games and activities or fully functional houses, and it deserves GREAT attention.
Having said that, I dont want to see ESO combat or BDO combat. Something closer to Tera Online. That's my personal thought on perfect combat.
We're talking about a game with mass scale combat. You're going to be attacked by a lot of enemies at once. It's not a game designed for 1v1 or smale scale combat.
So, how are you supposed to use blocking etc in a meaningful way with hundreds of players around you?
In the situations where it does work, the players with low ping (close to servers) would have a huge advantage on timing.
It's one of the reasons I'm still sceptical of the whole combat system, with the action portion that is. But I assume they will keep the action combat skills that doesn't require very high accuracy or timing.
Need to remember also that the servers are not set up to register hits etc nearly as often as for example a normal multiplayer game, and that could also make it so when you see an incoming attack and block, it's already too late to react according to the server.
Yeah I agree the animation cancelling was never my favorite part. You can see in my vid that I rarely (if ever) use it. Most of the time its probably accidental because their servers are so bad right now the game isnt registering buttons let alone ani cancelling so people are hitting buttons as much as possible to get a skill to fire off correctly.
I wasnt even moving or rolling much as I was trying to get skills to fire
Yes I agree damage should always only register with the animation of an ability. One of the reasons I wanted the CD to apply consequetively to all block/dodge/cc break is so that it would be impossible to sequentially use them for that with a 3 second CD for any of them to be activated.
You can see in my vid that theres always a decent window between me doing many of those as I'm a fan of honest gameplay.
It's up to the developers to rise above and beyond and implement true action/reaction combat without leaving ANY room for AC. Zero. Maybe by 2030...
Many games with mass scale have active combat, the physics behind it isnt difficult to implement as much as making sure the client and servers are actually up to date. ESO's using a custom/hybrid engine from 2007. And while their servers are bogged up right now, for a long time there they had seamless gameplay for the combat in 2016 (with a different set of issues not related to combat being cheat engine users)
Active block is not difficult at all to implement, its the same as incorporating movement for all players around you and casting abilities. Its making sure you cant exploit it with ani cancelling thats important. Hence my suggestions in my full post as well as throughout the thread. 3 second tied cooldown with active dodge and cc break
Players with long ping will always have a hard time wether it be casting abilities, activating heals, or any movement at all or seeing what others do. Even if there wasnt active block or dodge, there will be casted block and dodge that they will have the same issues with. Whats your solution?
I agree that skepticsm of the combat hybrid system is paramount because combat is what WILL make or break a games population. The gaming world and technology have drastically evolved and the days of eating up damage with minutes long cooldowns is a relic of the past.
No one I know actually feels that taking "turns" in combat is fun or engaging. I truly feel that adding in an additional feature here to compliment their any playstyle armor and class mechanics will 100% be a positive with a proper 3 second Cooldown to prevent spastic gameplay and server stress. Turning it into a skillfull timed reactionary action game to supliment abilities rather than just running away, kiting, or eating up damage.
That kind of gameplay will just bring forth a tanky playstyle for everyone who will spec into nothing but cc's and range damage.
Im not so sure it is, I did pretty well without using it. I had to spec more health (of course) but I was functional without relying on it. I think it does make the time to kill (TTK) much faster, but required? I dont think so.
If they make proper abilities, CC's, and a counter CC break mechanic (with cooldown) available it wouldnt need ani cancelling.
Especially since AOC isnt balancing around 1v1's but for making classes unique in having hard counters. That works even better with active block and roll dodge because all it does is make the game more engaging and rewarding for paying attention.
This is one of the reasons I'm constantly promoting GW2 combat as the gold standard of MMO combat over ESO or similar combat systems. Every complaint someone has about ESO GW2 has an answer for.
Stamina-spamming? The only resources in GW2 are your cooldowns (with some exceptions).
Dodge/Block spamming? Dodging has 2 charges that recharge over time, and blocking is tied to cooldown skills in GW2.
Enjoy tab-target gameplay over Action combat gameplay? GW2 lets you do either without needing to balance the game around having two different combat systems because all skills are Action at the core but allow tab-target. This last point is what scares me about AoC. AoC is trying to split combat into two separate systems instead of merging them into one, and that's going to create so many problems, from balance to gameplay feel.
This is just absolutely not true. AC is just an unintentional side-effect of some combat systems that just adds a higher skill ceiling. It doesn't inherently add or remove anything from gameplay except adding more to the learning curve for very little reason.
Just look at the Smash Bros. series. Melee had L-cancelling which you were required to learn to be able to play at the highest level, but later series removed it, and you don't see anyone saying Smash Ultimate combat is lacking because of it. In fact absolutely no one even brings it up, because it's ridiculous to argue for it.
Well said. I'm unfamiliar with GW2 but it sounds similar to my original proposal in my main post.
I agree with your concerns on the combat system, it needs to be good from a mechanical and design standpoint. Because the little details in how combat flows affects all other parts of player interaction and abilities functional use.
Its arguably the most delicate area that requires hyperfocus and tester input from a large demographic of playtesters. But I'm willing to bet most would agree with active reactionary based combat being far better over stationary stiff combat with turn-based elements.
Oh man. GW2 was a lot of fun. Sadly I had to quit cuz of the lack of end game content. If only GW2 had a sub fee model, man it would be so good.
There might be a special resource for that with some limits, such as:
- tanks may unlock a passive ability to increase their block mitigation and time of blocking before getting exhausted, but have no abilites to improve dodging;
- rogues and rangers may activate a passive ability to increase the number of possible dodges, but have no abilities to improve blocking;
- mages due to the lack of the passives may dodge or block one or two times before they get "tired", and have to relay on their damage shield abilities and teleport strikes.
Something like that:)
Also, I played a lot in ESO (and still playing). I can't say tho its system of blocking and dodging is the best. It works pretty well, but looks too unnatural. For me, it is implemented better in Blade&Soul. Every single class there has a double-S (SS) ability with some cooldown to avoid damage. Also, some of the classes such as Kung-Fu Masters and Sword Masters have an active block ability, and some have additional dodge abilites, again, with some cooldowns. It seems fresh and interesting and perfectly goes with action combat system.
Here I have to disagree. Different roles should be reacting in different ways and while some will naturally work with a block/dodge/party mechanic, some just wouldn't make sense.
For example a mage isnt mean to be athletic, they're meant to be smart. So having them rolling here there and everywhere makes no sense. They're more likely to use a spell to try and block which would be skill they learn. A rogue on the other hand is all about being fast, and so dodging spells etc makes sense for them. Tanks are great big lumbering things that wont be rolling around but then they can block with their shield if they have one equip. Fighters are less likely to be blocking or rolling around but a parry is a good option in melee.
I dont agree at all. I'm of the opinion that if you have a body and you're out of resources why would you not physically move or block with whatever you had.
Its obviously not going to be as efficient as having an actual shield to block or being as fast as a rogues mobility but the survival instinct is basic.
Makes no sense from a combat or immersive perspective why I would be a walking plank of wood just eating damage waiting for an arbitrary cooldown
Im a magic character in most of my games but Im always still a melee fighter. Just with magic
So the mechanics of being a melee warrior make it a neccessity to have in this game. That or eliminate all magic melee possibilities because it wouldnt make sense why a magical warrior wouldnt do the same thing a normal warrior would. Namely block and dodge
I showcased that exact style in the video at the bottom of my post with Elder Scrolls online
There is nothing worse than a game where, especially in high-level end game content, you're left to resort to button mashing. Doesn't matter what else the game offers, that just leaves combat dead boring. AoC needs to focus heavily on a combat system that rewards timing, placement, and understanding the cooldowns of your skills and your opponents. I think that requires a number of considerations, but a cooldown-based dodge/block component is such an easy first step to achieving that.
Idk if this post will notify any devs to revisit this thread, but I pray it does. Add this to your radar @StevenSharif !!
Having to focus and do things like counter and move and dodge during combat is a big upgrade from stand and rotate the skill bar combat of 99% of MMOs. Btw we did focus a lot on combat in the previous years. We had a whole game mode called ''Ashes of Creation Apocalypse'' (it became its own game with cash shop + BR theme etc etc highly controversial stuff but let's put that aside xd). In APOC (as it's called) the combat was quite engaging but melee combat lacked depth - I suggest watching those old footages. We are still waiting for Intrepid to add the ''active'' bits of combat to the alpha gameplay. At least we have the light attacks atm instead of auto attacks soo that's something 👻
The whole point of an RPG is that characters should be better at the abilities than players are.
In any RPG, I should be able to place points to increase my character's dodge abilities to surpass anything I as a player, can do physically... including hitting a dodge/roll button.
It makes great sense in duels or small scale PvP, but what I experienced in most such MMOs is that in large scale, it becomes a "perma CC knockdown insta death" masacre once you get within vision range of your target and PvP is dominated by ranged classes, rendering melee classes useless.
Having accuracy and dodge calculated by stats rather than active play does not sound too bad in my eyes. That's how oldschool MMORPGs used to be and frankly, those were much more enjoyable than the ones we got the past decade.
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You do realize that pure stat game you wish for is 100% worse for melee players in large scale PvP, yes? If there's no active, reliable dodge, how exactly is a melee fighter meant to get in range of a group of ranged casters? Are they meant to depend on the luck of their evasion stat?
Active gameplay is a must for engaging combat. No one has fun swinging stat sticks and praying that RNG favors you. To build on what was said earlier, winning at checkers is satisfying, but playing soccer is fun.
@Dygz I don't think it is to do with the ''RPG'' part or anything. And honestly ''character being better than a player'' is a sad excuse for having a boring combat system. Sure, old school MMOs had that (because of many reasons including tech limitations) and RPG games in general use stats (which, again for certain reasons) to determine the outcome of fights. It doesn't mean that a game released in 2021+ (fucking 2021+) RPG or not should have a passive combat system and let the character ''do the thing''.
Naw I like RPGs. Just said using it as an excuse for having boring combat is sad 🤷🏻♂️
If you think so you're being deliberately dishonest