(Exagerate animations) m'I alone on this one?

Hello everybody.

The point of this thread is see the opinion of the people here about exagerate cast animations.
For example I really don't like the actual fire ball mage cast, does a mage really need to JUMP then make two turns in the air then come down and finaly cast the fire ball? I came from WoW, I played that MMORPG for 12 years and one thing I liked about the animations of cast was the simplicity of them, but one day they change the animations for more exagerate casting spells and i hated it, I mean I know this is a game and is cool see our characters do cool stuff but in some point I think is too much exagerate.

I want to know your opinion, thanks.

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Adaegus Wintermight

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

BobzUrUncle wrote: »

You expect final quality animations from a game in development before the main Alpha testing?

No, it's the opposite. I don't want to see completed VFX and animations while the timing for combat isn't finalized.

The animators time is way better spent building building-blocks that they tweak rapidly while testing. Once the timing and feel is correct, they do a overhaul and finalize animation.

I was unaware you were an experienced MMO lead developer.

I mean, having experience in that role is the only way you can make this statement.

Untrue. You don't need to be some project lead to notice some glaring flaws in production. Making flashy animations isn't super important for pre-alpha combat mechanics. The time would indeed be better spent on something like world design or another static thing that takes time but is unlikely to change drastically before release. Once combat is tested and fine tuned then looking at pretty animations would be a good idea. Otherwise you're just going to replace all your hard work.

Noaani

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

Untrue. You don't need to be some project lead to notice some glaring flaws in production.

As a project lead, yes you do.

Edit to add; you and I do not know if the animations in question were designed in house, are a standard part of UE4, were purchased individually, or were acquired as a part of a package deal that had something else Intrepid wanted. For all we know, it could be that the animations in question were given to a new animator as busy work while other teams got other aspects of the game ready for animation to get to work on.

We don't know that because neither you nor I, nor the OP, are MMO lead developers - even more to the point, we are not the lead developer for Ashes of Creation.

Since we are not MMO lead developers, and since we do not know the origins of the animations the OP has - for absolutely no reason - got something against, we are in no position at all to criticize the people who do a job we do not know the details of.

That is, quite honestly, the end of it.

Wandering Mist

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

BobzUrUncle wrote: »

You expect final quality animations from a game in development before the main Alpha testing?

No, it's the opposite. I don't want to see completed VFX and animations while the timing for combat isn't finalized.

The animators time is way better spent building building-blocks that they tweak rapidly while testing. Once the timing and feel is correct, they do a overhaul and finalize animation.

I was unaware you were an experienced MMO lead developer.

I mean, having experience in that role is the only way you can make this statement.

Untrue. You don't need to be some project lead to notice some glaring flaws in production. Making flashy animations isn't super important for pre-alpha combat mechanics. The time would indeed be better spent on something like world design or another static thing that takes time but is unlikely to change drastically before release. Once combat is tested and fine tuned then looking at pretty animations would be a good idea. Otherwise you're just going to replace all your hard work.

That would be true if games development was done entirely linearly and only one aspect is worked on at a time. Fortunately for us, that isn't the case. Also, on the topic of animations and combat timing, the timing is entirely dependent on the animations, they go hand in hand. In order to fine-tune the combat timing you need animations to see what timing works and what doesn't.

Adaegus Wintermight

Noaani wrote: »

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

Untrue. You don't need to be some project lead to notice some glaring flaws in production.

As a project lead, yes you do.

I think you may be missing the point. I believe op was just saying "best not to jump the gun and finish up animations on placeholder combat". I really don't think it goes deeper than that.

Adaegus Wintermight

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

BobzUrUncle wrote: »

You expect final quality animations from a game in development before the main Alpha testing?

No, it's the opposite. I don't want to see completed VFX and animations while the timing for combat isn't finalized.

The animators time is way better spent building building-blocks that they tweak rapidly while testing. Once the timing and feel is correct, they do a overhaul and finalize animation.

I was unaware you were an experienced MMO lead developer.

I mean, having experience in that role is the only way you can make this statement.

Untrue. You don't need to be some project lead to notice some glaring flaws in production. Making flashy animations isn't super important for pre-alpha combat mechanics. The time would indeed be better spent on something like world design or another static thing that takes time but is unlikely to change drastically before release. Once combat is tested and fine tuned then looking at pretty animations would be a good idea. Otherwise you're just going to replace all your hard work.

That would be true if games development was done entirely linearly and only one aspect is worked on at a time. Fortunately for us, that isn't the case. Also, on the topic of animations and combat timing, the timing is entirely dependent on the animations, they go hand in hand. In order to fine-tune the combat timing you need animations to see what timing works and what doesn't.

I would that animation comes solely combat timing. Well really polished animation that is.

Noaani

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

Untrue. You don't need to be some project lead to notice some glaring flaws in production.

As a project lead, yes you do.

I think you may be missing the point. I believe op was just saying "best not to jump the gun and finish up animations on placeholder combat". I really don't think it goes deeper than that.

The OP should not make the assumption that they know better than educated, experienced professionals working in their field.

oophus

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

BobzUrUncle wrote: »

You expect final quality animations from a game in development before the main Alpha testing?

No, it's the opposite. I don't want to see completed VFX and animations while the timing for combat isn't finalized.

The animators time is way better spent building building-blocks that they tweak rapidly while testing. Once the timing and feel is correct, they do a overhaul and finalize animation.

I was unaware you were an experienced MMO lead developer.

I mean, having experience in that role is the only way you can make this statement.

I work as a 3D generalist, and I dabble in the same line of work. The Devs will understand what I'm speaking about and a lot of this is directed at them while input can be added on by whoever is in here and wants to speak out within the same topic.

Do you feel the Fireball effect and animation is where it should be? Do you like animation-locking if a combat system can drop that if necessary?

Noaani

oophus wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

BobzUrUncle wrote: »

You expect final quality animations from a game in development before the main Alpha testing?

No, it's the opposite. I don't want to see completed VFX and animations while the timing for combat isn't finalized.

The animators time is way better spent building building-blocks that they tweak rapidly while testing. Once the timing and feel is correct, they do a overhaul and finalize animation.

I was unaware you were an experienced MMO lead developer.

I mean, having experience in that role is the only way you can make this statement.

I work as a 3D generalist, and I dabble in the same line of work. The Devs will understand what I'm speaking about and a lot of this is directed at them while input can be added on by whoever is in here and wants to speak out within the same topic.

Do you feel the Fireball effect and animation is where it should be? Do you like animation-locking if a combat system can drop that if necessary?

I'll comment on this when the game is in late beta.

I don't for a second believe you work in anything at all to do with 3D. If you were indeed in that industry, you would know to not comment on a project that is 3+ years from release.

oophus

Ravudha wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

After a while they've got hundereds of these building blocks of animations, where a ton of them will end up having the same first and last frame. That means they can build hundereds of different animations only through the game engine it self for different type of effects and abilities later without having to wait for animators to build one and one new animation for each iteration of testing.

Well they've been making these reusable 'building blocks' to streamline the creation of textures, materials, models/skeletons, and environments, so you'd think they're already doing it with animations as well.

They are in fact reusing some of the animations, but I don't understand why they have taken it so far yet at this point, if combat is such in early stages. The same spinning animation is seen both as they shoot a fireball, but also when one of the AoE effects are used with a different ending to the same start of the animation.

* They are either blending the first part and two ending animations in UE, which I doubt in this case.
* They first developed one spinning jump for X animation, then needed another similar effect, and used the first work as a basis where 50% of it were deleted and animated again to produce two different point-cache files for UE to read from.

I would like to get a deeper answer on how development is progressed regarding this from them, so I hope some of them can clear stuff out a bit, and show the progress next QA session or something like that. How long time does it take to adjust the speed of combat if nessessary? Do they have to wait for an animator to adjust 100% of one cachefile? Do they reuse one cache-file for the jump segment, and only adjust the "spinning part" in the middle? Do they blend 2 or 3 or 5 animations to build one animation? I don't see any part in the Fireball or the AoE effect animation that makes me think that they blend 3, as the middle part is not "loop-able" to adjust to different timings.

That means that if they want to adjust timings of that specific jump, they have to shorten frames within the cache-file, and that may wreck it since the effects of gravity will look weird if you just speed up or speed down entire animations. Its way better if animations are mostly developed at X coordinates, and then adjusted in the game engine instead of having movements recorded at the same time within the cache file imo.

daveywavey

oophus wrote: »

combat feels "clunky", slow and to be honest, boring

Well, thanks for stopping by. Have fun in whatever other game you end up playing.

Byeee!

Nagash

Last I said this I was linched but here we go.

IT'S PRE ALPHA

oophus

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Hmmmm.

Holding a button to increase the damage of an ability at the cost of movement isn't something often seen in an mmorpg. In fact, I can't think of a single game that has a mechanic like that. The closest I can think of is ESO where you do a short button press for the weapon light attack and a long press for the heavy attack, but that doesn't apply to abilities.

Not sure how I'd feel about a mechanic like that for every spell. At the very least it would be quite a learning curve to get the timing down so use the right "level" of spell that you are aiming for.

Remember that I'm talking about the design process to reach balance for combat. When the building blocks of animation is built so that it is tweekable, its easier to reach a point where combat feels fluent and open, and more involving. At the end, some abilities may require a full on movement lock to balance damage for example, and thats easy to adjust to even though it has options to "move-while-channeling" at first, in the way its implemented.

But this type of implementation of animation means that we can press a button before we stand still. Often in MMORPG we are forced to have to stand still before we are even allowed to press a button to start an animation. This is like this because the "idle" animation have the feet placed the same way as frame 1 in the animation used for X ability.

What I think would make the combat way more fluent and interesting is the ability to press buttons while moving. The speed it takes to reach "frame 1" of the next animation frame is up to balance, and it all can be blended nicelly together with VFX and the upper body animation file, while the feet and legs are seperated.

For example:

Old system:
We are running which means we are in a looping animation 30 frame animation, and if we want to use the Fireball skill, we have to let go of WASD keys to let the character slow down to its "idle" animation which is another looping animation while standing still. While in this state, we can trigger the next state of animation by pressing X button (fireball), and off it goes with movement-lock and all.

New system:
While running in the looping run animation, we can whenever we want press the fireball ability button, and the arms will start to conjure up the visibility of that firebal around the staff, in between the hands or whatever. The trigger event to let it go, may be based on X function. If we let it go before the character stands still, it shoots off a fireball with less damage. If we let the character spend its time to stop up and stand still into its "loop-idle" animation it can trigger an "loop-fireball" animation instead which makes the effect bigger and bigger if we want, until we release the fireball with a bigger bang.

This means the ranged combat system is more mimicking how melee combat works, as we the player choose quick casts just like a bow & arrow player can while running, but we may also hold it down long enough to start the "mainloop_fireball" animation. And since we've got building blocks for different stages of animation triggers, we can adjust the time it takes for the character to stand still, and how fast the VFX cache runs through its animation linked to this.

The system is more procedural and easier for developers that controls balance and combat speed in game, and so much work to and from animation will be removed. We can adjust the time it takes to stop and trigger the main animation to 0,5 seconds if we want. Or 3 seconds. Whatever feels best for the game and the combat.

Noaani

oophus wrote: »

Old system:

New system:

Neither of these terms are appropriate to apply to the situation.

It would be better off if they were labeled as "pre-alpha system", and "system I would like to see without knowing anything at all in terms of details as to what the develoeprs want for their combat system, yet I have an opinion on it anyway".

Alter the labels to that, and I'd have no problems.

oophus

Wandering Mist wrote: »

That would be true if games development was done entirely linearly and only one aspect is worked on at a time. Fortunately for us, that isn't the case. Also, on the topic of animations and combat timing, the timing is entirely dependent on the animations, they go hand in hand. In order to fine-tune the combat timing you need animations to see what timing works and what doesn't.

100%! Which is why this segment is important to think about while developing such a large game. Thinking about how to streamline the process is important.

They may be buying animation sets and implement them like they are, but so much time can be saved if they dissect the animations and split them out in parts, and implement them through layer-blending in UE. That means all of that can be changed by some number values in the game engine instead of having to adjust the animations to make it fit a new timing, if the old one didn't work.

There are ways to seperate out upper body and lower body animations and blend them. The more segmentet it is, the easier it is to mix and match different animations to form completely new abilities later, since they are since start building a "building-block" type animation library. Just the same as for models, and textures where they utilize the latest gen technology to build the world.

Its time to up the game and utilize the latest development for animation too, and how to implement them in UE. I also feel "animation-lock" is outdated. The same "feel" and penalty of animation-lock is perfectly achieved by tweaking the building blocks of different animations that blends together. They can start out trying a 30 frame + 30 frame + 30 frame speed of Fireball, and tweak it ingame to 15+30+15 if the want by cutting N'th frame in the upper body animation cache, while the feet stops within the first 30 frames.

This would mean the character spends 1 second to stop and do the ability, while the hands spends 2 seconds to build up the effect, while reaching "animation-lock" at the end before it can be released.

To me, this would feel way better than most combat systems out there, as you can press and start channeling abilities while you are in movement. Just like melee and bow&arrow combat can.

oophus

Noaani wrote: »

I'll comment on this when the game is in late beta.

I don't for a second believe you work in anything at all to do with 3D. If you were indeed in that industry, you would know to not comment on a project that is 3+ years from release.

I don't make games, I make VFX and animate towards film and online courses towards the maritime industry. The tools used are the same. I use 3ds max, and unreal engine for VR related stuff.

And you are 100% wrong. If there is a time to bring up the fundamentals of the game, its now! Not 1 months before release where they are not able to make such deep adjustments to the game. I'm talking about how the entire system should be implemented and developed, plus streamlined. I may be wrong ,and the devs are in the right direction, but I express my concerns now, so that they can take whatever input I have and see if its feasable or even possible for them to do so. If they were to adjust how to implement animation and VFX, its now. Not in 2+ years, as thats too late.

oophus

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

Old system:

New system:

Neither of these terms are appropriate to apply to the situation.

It would be better off if they were labeled as "pre-alpha system", and "system I would like to see without knowing anything at all in terms of details as to what the develoeprs want for their combat system, yet I have an opinion on it anyway".

Alter the labels to that, and I'd have no problems.

No, its how they implement animations in UE. There are different ways, and for some abilities I know they do the nr.1 since we have to come to a complete stop before a button is able to be pressed. I feel this is old-tech, and its time to upgrade it towards how the game world is produced, which is utilizing new-tech for textures, and building-blocks for its contents. Its time to do the same for VFX and animations too. Reasons being the combat will feel way more fluent and open if they do.

Constructive feedback is welcomed by them, they've said so themselves! If you don't like my adjustments and reasons to think why it would be better then thats fine. Speak your truth and be done with it.

oophus

daveywavey wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

combat feels "clunky", slow and to be honest, boring

Well, thanks for stopping by. Have fun in whatever other game you end up playing.

Byeee!

I'm just as hyped towards this game as most people in here. I want the game to be the best it can be, and reach the max potential it can. That's why I'm addressing stuff I don't like now while it can be alternated and changed. So should you. The devs don't want fanboys who loves everything they do, and scares away people with constructive feedback. They want people that will give them feedback to improve the game. That will actually make them money and make all of this effort worth it.

I'm not saying me feedback is 100% proven and right, but I hope its read and thought about in a meeting somewhere at their office if they do.

Nagash wrote: »

Last I said this I was linched but here we go.

IT'S PRE ALPHA

Which means this is the time for such feedback, not in 1-2-3 years. Making animations and VFX takes a lot of time and development. Making that system as robust as it can be will save them thousands upon thousands of hours later.

Noaani

oophus wrote: »

I'm talking about how the entire system should be implemented and developed, plus streamlined.

No, what you are doing is telling people that know what they are doing, how to do the thing that they know how to do.

The people making this game have shipped MMO's before. Even if you work in 3D, which I still doubt, you have not shipped an MMO. As such, they know exponentially more than you do about what they are doing.

Again, you seem to be forgetting that they are 3+ years away from relase. The animations they have in place now are place holders in almost all cases. They don't have the full combat systems under the animations even fully detailed yet, let alone implemented.

oophus

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

I'm talking about how the entire system should be implemented and developed, plus streamlined.

No, what you are doing is telling people that know what they are doing, how to do the thing that they know how to do.

I don't agree. I'm saying stuff like I see it, and ask questions for it to be clarified if I'm wrong.

The Devs are smart people, they won't be hurt by some constructive criticism and critical questions. As I've said before, they even welcome it! What you are doing now isn't really helpful. If you do this towards every somewhat critical question in here, you just scare away people that may give the devs some valuable input.

The people making this game have shipped MMO's before. Even if you work in 3D, which I still doubt, you have not shipped an MMO. As such, they know exponentially more than you do about what they are doing.

No previous MMO have been perfect. This game can be. It has the potential to become one of the best, if not the best MMO ever produced. But for me, it all depends on how the combat feels and how it flows.

I don't like movement-locked abilities, and I would want this addressed. If you like it, then that's fine, and you may argue why it should be there. But I'm free to address my concerns for the game for it to become my favorite game of all times, just as you are free to do so your selves.

When looking at the current state of combat, I don't like all parts of it. So I try to adress it, and even throw in some help in how I would implement the combat system to streamline it more for easier access to balance and shorter development time. I may be wrong, but I do my best to influence the devs to do what I think is the right decision.

Again, you seem to be forgetting that they are 3+ years away from relase. The animations they have in place now are place holders in almost all cases. They don't have the full combat systems under the animations even fully detailed yet, let alone implemented.

No, as I've said before. I don't. The time to adjust how to implement and produce animations is now! 3 years before release, and not 1 month before it. That would be when its its too late, and they've come too far with implementing the animations into UE. If the combat still doesn't feel right in 2 years, that means someone at the office took the wrong decitions on how to develop and implement animations. Animations are controlling the pace of the game 100%, and wrong animations may make the combat feel slow, clunky and boring. If a feature in the game that we interact with 90% of the time doesn't hit the nail on the head, then forget about all the rest of the game - even though it has so much potential to be the best, I feel 90% of the focus right now, should be to get the combat to feel and perform great. Right now, I don't think they're there. Which is why I'm here addressing it.

What you seam to miss, is I'm addressing how to go forward with balance. I'm asking them to utilize the same techniques they do for world-building towards the animation and combat system. Blend animations way more in the game engine, and ask the animators to deliver more files per animation. That means balance can be done and tweaked for its pace faster, even if the animation isn't 100% correct, and thats fine. That can be fine tuned 6 months before release when the combat system is actually 100% on point.

Noaani

oophus wrote: »

No, as I've said before. I don't. The time to adjust how to implement and produce animations is now!

I don't think you understand the point of people telling you that the game is in early alpha/3 years from release.

The point is - the developers have a plan. It is not a plan that tells them exactly where they want to end up, but rather is a plan to gather data that is particular to their company, and develop the game from there. That is what Apoc was, that is what alpha will be.

You are literally asking them to change something that they have no intention at all of not changing, and we are all here telling you that they intend to change it. They have a plan that will give them data that they will then use to decide how to change it, and you have absolutely no insight at all in to what that data is going to say (neither would Intrepid, right now), and so have no place to say what the end result should look like.

You are CLEARLY not a professional in any field. You may work in a specific field (I still doubt it is anything to do with 3D), but you are not a professional. No professional would ever think they have the ability to tell another professional in a different field, genre or industry how to do their job - and would even be reluctant to tell a professional in the same field, genre and industry how to do their job, as they would know that every project has it's own specific set of circumstances that need to be worked around, and without knowing those circumstances in depth, there is no real way to know what that professional should do.

Basically, you are looking at how Ashes looks in a video clip today, and making the assumption that a milti-hundred-million dollar project has no direction.

That is highly offensive to Intrepid as a company - and to Steven in particular - and you are expecting them to them humor you with answers.

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