(Exagerate animations) m'I alone on this one?

Hello everybody.

The point of this thread is see the opinion of the people here about exagerate cast animations.
For example I really don't like the actual fire ball mage cast, does a mage really need to JUMP then make two turns in the air then come down and finaly cast the fire ball? I came from WoW, I played that MMORPG for 12 years and one thing I liked about the animations of cast was the simplicity of them, but one day they change the animations for more exagerate casting spells and i hated it, I mean I know this is a game and is cool see our characters do cool stuff but in some point I think is too much exagerate.

I want to know your opinion, thanks.

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oophus

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

No, as I've said before. I don't. The time to adjust how to implement and produce animations is now!

I don't think you understand the point of people telling you that the game is in early alpha/3 years from release.

The point is - the developers have a plan. It is not a plan that tells them exactly where they want to end up, but rather is a plan to gather data that is particular to their company, and develop the game from there. That is what Apoc was, that is what alpha will be.

Which is why I'm sceptical and are raising my concerns! I see that they have started to produce class specific vidoes to introduce the classes, and they also invited streamers with no NDA to show of the game. This means they obviously think the combat system is a good base, and I agree for a lot of the parts of it, but not for typical "magical" classes that specialize in a casting time. Its time to get rid of old MMO systems when we today have methods where we can get the same effect in better ways and methods. I'm simply asking why they chose to implement some of the animations the way they did, which resulted in the AoE and Fireball spells.

If the developers have a plan, I would like answers to my questions about it. Thats why I'm making this thread, as I obviously don't agree with them on some of their decisions, and I want to help them by putting some ideas into their head for them to discuss further in the office. Its called constructive criticism and they welcome it! They even produce discussions for us to comment on based on their thoughts and development line.

I will bet 100% that the developers welcome my comments above yours when you try to shut down constructive criticism, and are surely just acting like a fanboy defending any and every decision the devs come up with. That's not helpful at all.

You must have some parts of the game you would want to alter to make them better based on your preferred play-style? What are they? Have you ever produced any threads to come with some constructive criticism for the devs to analyze? instead of this discussion, we should discuss the topic at hand. If you don't agree with it, then explain why. You even say so yourself that the devs may not know everything in their progress towards the end goal for this game. So help them! Shutting down people like this isn't helpful. Focus on people that come with criticism without any suggestions for improvement instead, that's way more helpful, to force/help them them to think and come up with better solutions if they have criticisms instead.

You are literally asking them to change something that they have no intention at all of not changing, and we are all here telling you that they intend to change it, they have a plan that will give them data that they will then use to decide how to change it, and you have absolutely no insight at all in to what that data is going to say (neither would Intrepid, right now), and so have no place to say what the end result should look like.

I don't think you understand what I've been saying. Its the way of how they reach said balance for the combat system I'm addressing. I'm also questioning why they don't blend animations further, by utilizing smaller blocks of animations to link them together. That would make that process way easier, even though its a bit harder to start with. But when they are building an entire MMO that will live for years, hopefully, its best to build good practices as a base, for any system.

Animation blending is kinda new, and its not been utilized that much in MMO's. There are many ways of introducing layers of animation within the game engine, and I'm asking them to take a deeper look into this.

Hardware have gotten so good thiese days that a few raytraced particles to support the animation and blend in procedural parts of it is avaliable for them. This system was first seen in for example Assassins creed, where the arms push away people you walk past, and you lean into walls if you go to close to them. I'm not saying this fideility is needed, but the underlying technology should be utilized more, as those systems introduce procedural animations based on states to make it way more fluid, and when combined with combat, it could be a real kick ass system never before seen in MMO's.

If they do a test for this, and it really works, then I bet you they would do the efforts needed to do changes. The ultimate goal here is to produce money for the families of the developers, and let the game live for at least 10+ years. The better the combat system is, the more success the game will have, and it may even attract the esports crowd, like they've addressed somewhat.

You are CLEARLY not a professional in any field.

Why would I lie?! I work 100% as a 3D generalist, where I specialize in VFX (mostly water and fire simulations) and animation and dabble a bit in UE. My colleague is way better in UE than I am, but I know somewhat what can be done and not. I also understand different processes needed while developing this kinds of stuff, but I'm not experienced in MMO's.

No professional would ever think they have the ability to tell another professional in a different field, genre or industry how to do their job

100% wrong! We're interested in each others input, and we always strive to improve. The 3D world is always changing and new and better technologies are coming each year with each update in software.

Why this need to come with ad-hominem attacks towards me as a person, while skipping the topic at hand? I have no reason to lie about this! Why wouild I? Any devs would totally see through me if I spoke 100% bullshit on this, and its mostly them I'm addressing this to.

Basically, you are looking at how Ashes looks in a video clip today, and making the assumption that a milti-hundred-million dollar project has no direction.

Don't be ridiculous! I love most of the game, and I love the general direction the devs have for the game. That's the reason I'm here in the first place!

That is highly offensive to Intrepid as a company - and to Steven in particular - and you are expecting them to them humor you with answers.

Wrong! He should feel honored that people care so much about his project to hope and dream it can become everything he have envisioned for it! The only reason I'm here is I want this game to be the best it can be, to reach its max potential.

What are your reasons to be here? Licking the devs ass in hopes to get a Beta Key? Come on! Stop with the silly personal agenda against people with some critique, which the devs over and over again say they welcome with open arms if its constructive.

Noaani

oophus wrote: »

If the developers have a plan, I would like answers to my questions about it.

As they have said before, the details of this are commercially sensitive.

oophus wrote: »

What are your reasons to be here? Licking the devs ass in hopes to get a Beta Key?

I have access to all levels of both alpha and beta, and I believe I am the only poster to tell Steven specifically and directly to fuck off.

But sure, I'm here to lick the developers ass to get a beta key.

oophus

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

If the developers have a plan, I would like answers to my questions about it.

As they have said before, the details of this are commercially sensitive.

Why would technology within UE be commercially sensitive? There are no secrets there. This tech is already implemented in a lot of games, but I've never seen it utilized much in MMO's. Especially not the blending towards procedural animation to fetch states (towards first frame in a hand-made animation).

Noaani

oophus wrote: »

Why would technology within UE be commercially sensitive?

Their plans for the game are.

And their version opf UE4 is highly customized.

but I've never seen it utilized much in MMO's.

There are about a half dozen or so MMO's that use UE4, including Blade and Soul and Aion.

oophus

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

Why would technology within UE be commercially sensitive?

Their plans for the game are.

And their version opf UE4 is highly customized.

but I've never seen it utilized much in MMO's.

There are about a half dozen or so MMO's that use UE4, including Blade and Soul and Aion.

1. Most developers build systems in UE outside of its blueprints with custom scripts. That doesn't necessarily make stuff a secret. What I'm talking about is not new, but its ripe for MMO's.
2. Of course there are games that is utilizing UE. I can't talk to you if you don't still understand what I'm addressing. The devs will know though what I'm talking about.

Noaani

oophus wrote: »

1. Most developers build systems in UE outside of its blueprints with custom scripts. That doesn't necessarily make stuff a secret. What I'm talking about is not new, but its ripe for MMO's.

Scripts?

They have rewritten large portions of the engine - including completely redoing the network section of it, as well as major alterations to most other aspects.

Essentially, UE4 was a starting point.

However, that isn't what I was talking about in regards to commercially sensitive (the alterations to the game engine are outright IP owned by Intrepid).

Intrepid have a plan. They are going to gather some data, analyze that data, and then make decisions as to how to develop the game based on that data. This includes decisions as to the combat system (in fact, it is mostly in regards to the combat system).

This is what Apoc was, this is what alpha is.

We do not know exactly what data Intrepid are wanting to collect, nor what it is they plan on doing with it - because that information is commercially sensitive.

For all we know, some of the data they are looking at may well be specifically in relation to animation - we don't know because they won't tell us what they are looking at because that is commercially sensitive information.

Even if what they are looking at is not animation related, we do know for a fact that it is combat related. We also know that until all decisions about the combat system are decided, there is no real point in getting in to fine detail about animation - which is why they haven't.

In fact, project management practise would suggest you shouldn't even look at animations until everything before them is decided, let alone start developing them. Any change to an earlier system may well render any work on a later system to be redundant.

Of course there are games that is utilizing UE.

Yes, and I just gave you the names of two of them so you can look if you want.

You're welcome.

oophus

Noaani wrote: »

Scripts?.

Custom scripts, modules, blueprints, whatever.

A system designer will make the tools that speed up production of a game. A procedural texturing system for the world to paint maps to mask in different textures. A procedural building system seen in their video, where they can quickly build different shapes of buildigns with a few building blocks of models that links perfectly together.

What I'm talking about is the same thing as this, only for animation in time where balance, feel, speed and fluidity for the combat system isn't finalized.

The system designer builds the tools necessary for the firm to implement quick procedural animation and manually assisted animation to get a whole system. This is no secret, and they wouldn't reveal the code that is utilized for this, but how it looks like as an end result, just like the other tools showcased for world-design.

Do you understand now?

rikardp98

If you really think about it, it makes for sense that a low leveled player wouldn't be as powerful or knowledgeable as a higher leveled player. Meaning that fireball for a low leveled player would take longer and more focus to cast it compared to a higher leveled player.

Asgermon

it is really exhausting to read everything here and 80% of it is just a discussion about whether oophus is allowed to express criticism of something that is still in the works. I also just give my opinion on it.
of course, the animations and the entire combat system are still in the development and testing phase. even if oophus criticizes something that may look completely different in a year and the developers have a plan that they follow, that doesn't mean for me that oophus can't give his opinion on it. The developer team must decide for themselves whether this criticism and the suggestions are helpful for the developers or whether they will continue to pursue their own plan, which may already contain the suggestions for improvement mentioned by oophus.
I think it's good that constructive criticism comes in first, whether the criticism comes too early in the development process or criticizes something that is exchanged / improved anyway in the course of further development the developer team has to decide. because only they know exactly what the future plan is.

rikardp98

I totally agree with @Asgermon , this forum isn't about hating on each other or the developers, it's about talking openly and having a discussion about different ideas and opinions. Then it's up to the developers to take those ideas and opinions and make a something of it, either adopt it into the game or take it in the other direction.
The argument that the game is "still far from done" isn't relevant here because we can't directly change the game or know to 100% what the developers want. So we should instead focus on the idea it self and how we feel about it in a theoretical sense.

oophus

rikardp98 wrote: »

If you really think about it, it makes for sense that a low leveled player wouldn't be as powerful or knowledgeable as a higher leveled player. Meaning that fireball for a low leveled player would take longer and more focus to cast it compared to a higher leveled player.

I agree, and there are several things that can be adjusted for this. For example longer initial state on the first animation which is the "slowing down" animation to a full stop. A high level player may skill into that part getting faster to reach max potential of damage quicker, while a new player spends more time to get max damage output, but he also moves further while channeling.

I think that would be a good balance of power and level, and it would make combat more rewarding earlier on imo.

Example:

A level 5 player spends 30 frames to slow down, 30 frames to channel, and 30 frames to do the "ultimate" animation at the end before a 15 frame animation sends the skill away. In total 105 frames for max damage.
A level 50 player spends 15 frames to slow down, 30 frames to channel and 20 frames to do the "ultimate" animation at the end before a 15 frame animation sends the ability away. In total 80 frames for max damage.

(In NA 30 frames = 1 seconds for an animator. In EU its 24/25 frames, so you guys can put it into perspective. I guess this game would use a 30 frame setup.)

The beauty of this, is that the skilling system could actually differentiate between "build up", "loop" and "finish" speed to change how players wants the skill to function, and all of this is controlled by the procedural animation system.

A faster "build up" means you end up in movement-lock faster. (good to reach max dmg earlier)
A slower "build up" means you get more movement freedom for a longer time.
An alternative "loop" animation may be used for longer channeling time for people who wants to stay that way to get the aim right before its released. Or if the ability is altered through the second Archetype.
A faster "finish" animation gives the ability a higher velocity. Longer reach, faster to hit target means its also an easier skill to aim for example.

rikardp98

@oophus I don't really understand how it would work physically. If I press the button would I "charge" the ability during the time I hold the button, and after I release it then the animation would happen? Or maybe I missed something xD

Having a "charge" up would be cool but then the animation of the release of the fire ball should happen instantly when I let go of the button, otherwise it will feel even more "clunky". And will the ability have a minimum charge time? Or will I be able to tap the ability and fire a instant fireball?

I personally think that having cast times instead of "charge up" is better for most spells, but I also think that what you are saying sounds pretty interesting and would add some complexity and variety to the combat.

oophus

rikardp98 wrote: »

@oophus I don't really understand how it would work physically. If I press the button would I "charge" the ability during the time I hold the button, and after I release it then the animation would happen? Or maybe I missed something xD

I personally think that having cast times instead of "charge up" is better for most spells, but I also think that what you are saying sounds pretty interesting and would add some complexity and variety to the combat.

I will try to explain.

Old System:
They have 1 animation for 1 ability. That means we have to come to a complete stop before that ability is able to be pressed, so it starts the animation, and while the animation lasts, we see a "casting-bar" ticking downwards until the animation is finished and the ability is cast. We can't move while the animation is doing its thing.

New System:
Upper body and lower body is separated in terms of how they import the animation, where they are combined again with the use of the game engine with blending/layer modes, plus each animation is separated into logical steps. For a Fireball animation that would be 3 steps.

You run and you want to fire off a Fireball. You can press it while running, and that creates the trigger to start the "upper body part 1" animation. Your hands/staff/wand summon a fireball that grows bigger and bigger.
At the same time, the lower part of the body starts its "slow down animation", and the legs starts to slow down. When you go to a complete stop, you trigger the bigger "loop" animation which would be "upperbody part 2" and "lowerbody part 2" Fireball animation.
When you release the button you send the Fireball off towards its target.
But remember that since the system can "blend" between targets/animations, you can release the button whenever you want to send it off.
The only requirement would be that it must be after X frames in the initial "upper body part 1 fireball" animation (so that VFX actually have time to make a visible Fireball to be cast).
You can also always cancel the animation and return to a "neutral state".

With this the game can be more dynamic. It can take 0,5 seconds to come to a complete stop, or it can take 2 seconds.
The middle "loop" animation can last for 1 second, or it can last for 3 seconds +/- whatever they want through testing.
Its way easy for the devs to adjust dynamically, and thus it can be linked to skills for us to skill up within. Do we want a faster "build up", then lower the "slow down" animations time for example.

We can introduce a second phase of the animation and blend it in if we want. Perfect for alterations towards Second Achetype choices later for when the devs needs to start implementing them.

We also remove the need for any cast-bar. The effect would be visible instead, as the character slows down into its "max" charge pose, or animation-loop, with added VFX to give the anticipation of a max charged fireball. The character could even start to SCREAM! at the end if it, and if you don't cancel the spell or let it go, it backfires on you. Hehe, would be fun to try and balance MAX damage with a 0,3 second time window for example where it can actually crit as well. But hold it for too long, and it backfires. ^^
Lots of options to choose from. And I think this is the beutfy of this way of introducing animations. Layer/blending modes. As its way easier to test for the devs in short amount of time. Maybe the crit thing doesnt work? No problem, all it took to test it was a "scream sound" and some numbers in the skills ability.

Having a "charge" up would be cool but then the animation of the release of the fire ball should happen instantly when I let go of the button, otherwise it will feel even more "clunky". And will the ability have a minimum charge time? Or will I be able to tap the ability and fire a instant fireball?

Good point! What if the system within TAB targeting chooses its target when you release the button? And at "action combat" style we make the "release" animation really quick? Like 5-6 frames? For bow&arrow they are currently using like 2-3 frames only, and I think it looks good there.

If you choose to let go early in the animation cycle, you can. But the damage should be lower than if you let it "wind up" completely. Maybe the best damage is in a sweet spot for some abilities? Hold it down 2 seconds to 2,5 seconds for max damage with ability to crit. Hold it down <2 seconds, or >2,5 seconds and the damage goes down for example. Thus you have to learn its "flow" to time it correctly. Could be a fun mechanic to try maybe.

Atama

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Hmmmm.

Holding a button to increase the damage of an ability at the cost of movement isn't something often seen in an mmorpg. In fact, I can't think of a single game that has a mechanic like that. The closest I can think of is ESO where you do a short button press for the weapon light attack and a long press for the heavy attack, but that doesn't apply to abilities.

Not sure how I'd feel about a mechanic like that for every spell. At the very least it would be quite a learning curve to get the timing down so use the right "level" of spell that you are aiming for.

That's exactly how the Berserker class in TERA Online works. You hold down a button to "charge" up an attack and in the process you can barely move. The amount of time you hold down the button determines the strength of the blow.

It really, really, REALLY sucks. Nothing is worse than squatting there for a few seconds watching your bar build up while the enemy moves out of range. And it is boring. So, so boring. And keep in mind TERA is an "action" MMORPG so normally you're running around, positioning, lining up your attacks. The Berserker feels like a turtle with a giant hammer that you clumsily slam on the ground.

The mechanics do exist in MMOs but they are a mistake when implemented.

rikardp98

I feel like this mechanic to casting spell sounds very interesting and would be a nice addition to the gameplay. I don't think every spell should be like this but some would be awesome. With this system you could start moving out if a damage aoe ability while charging up your, for example, fireball. It can lead to some interesting timings on raid bosses and similar.

Not only do you have to take damage into account, but also how to handle the Mana cost if the ability. Maybe fireball should have a static Mana cost, marking the full cast time the most Mana effective, Or a scaling Mana cost like the damage.

I also think that the base ability should be static, but when you use a specific secondary archetype or level up your fireball ability it would unlock this new mechanic that you are talking about.

oophus

Atama wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Hmmmm.

Holding a button to increase the damage of an ability at the cost of movement isn't something often seen in an mmorpg. In fact, I can't think of a single game that has a mechanic like that. The closest I can think of is ESO where you do a short button press for the weapon light attack and a long press for the heavy attack, but that doesn't apply to abilities.

Not sure how I'd feel about a mechanic like that for every spell. At the very least it would be quite a learning curve to get the timing down so use the right "level" of spell that you are aiming for.

That's exactly how the Berserker class in TERA Online works. You hold down a button to "charge" up an attack and in the process you can barely move. The amount of time you hold down the button determines the strength of the blow.

It really, really, REALLY sucks. Nothing is worse than squatting there for a few seconds watching your bar build up while the enemy moves out of range. And it is boring. So, so boring. And keep in mind TERA is an "action" MMORPG so normally you're running around, positioning, lining up your attacks. The Berserker feels like a turtle with a giant hammer that you clumsily slam on the ground.

The mechanics do exist in MMOs but they are a mistake when implemented.

It sounds like the implementation and timing of things is wrong here, not the implementation and the use of this type of animation blending.

If you think back, what is the main problem? Is the charge up too long? The movement speed too slow? What would happen if you got to adjust it? How would it feel if the movement speed was increased? The time to charge it up adjusted to last shorter. For melee I agree that it shouldn't be a long time. One click is enough for "light-attack", and holding it down for maybe half a second is enough for a "heavy-attack".

The beauty of this is its easy for the devs once the animation is in place to adjust them. The animation can be stretched, or squashed while tweaking it. And the different between current state with old system, and new system is really just up to the devs. Have a 12 frame "speeddown" animation and 78 frame "loop" animation for max damage, and you would have had the same feel with the same timing. But with it seperated, its easier to adjust different parts of it. Either through balance, or through skills within the game while you level up for you to adjust each skill for example.

oophus

rikardp98 wrote: »

Not only do you have to take damage into account, but also how to handle the Mana cost if the ability. Maybe fireball should have a static Mana cost, marking the full cast time the most Mana effective, Or a scaling Mana cost like the damage.

I also think that the base ability should be static, but when you use a specific secondary archetype or level up your fireball ability it would unlock this new mechanic that you are talking about.

1. Good suggestion. Maybe isntead of balancing it through damage number, they balance it through mana costs? Quick casts costs way more mana than longer lasting charges for a burst of energy, but you better finish whatever off, or you're out of mana.
2. I think its important that the first introduction of combat feels good. Right now I would at least remove current implementation of Fireball, for something that feels better.

Adaegus Wintermight

I'm seeing a couple people take direct offense to op's comments/input. Some are very thinly veiled aggression and others are just "You're lying about your career!".

New MMO's NEED constructive criticism and input. Steven specifically called for the community to speak up on what we think needs to change or how the community feels about stuff. OP even specified in the first post that he's a fan and wants to help make the game better.

Please don't be offended when someone suggests how something can be improved. It's not an attack on the game, or the developers, or the community. It's just people lending their 2 cents just like Steven requested.

Atama

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

I'm seeing a couple people take direct offense to op's comments/input. Some are very thinly veiled aggression and others are just "You're lying about your career!".

New MMO's NEED constructive criticism and input. Steven specifically called for the community to speak up on what we think needs to change or how the community feels about stuff. OP even specified in the first post that he's a fan and wants to help make the game better.

Please don't be offended when someone suggests how something can be improved. It's not an attack on the game, or the developers, or the community. It's just people lending their 2 cents just like Steven requested.

Yeah I don't think anyone should be attacked for expressing their opinion of these things, as long as others aren't attacked for reminding them that we (and especially Intrepid Studios) already know that the animations need a lot of work. That disclaimer is given out every time they present this kind of footage.

Now, if someone hyperbolically declares that the game is in trouble because of this, that does need to be corrected. But the OP in this thread is not saying that. Others have declared this game will fail because of unfinished pre-alpha animation, and maybe the fact that such a thing has come up too often has made people defensive about this. But I think @oophus is all right and has valid opinions, whether we specifically agree with all of them or not.

Leiloni

Atama wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

Hmmmm.

Holding a button to increase the damage of an ability at the cost of movement isn't something often seen in an mmorpg. In fact, I can't think of a single game that has a mechanic like that. The closest I can think of is ESO where you do a short button press for the weapon light attack and a long press for the heavy attack, but that doesn't apply to abilities.

Not sure how I'd feel about a mechanic like that for every spell. At the very least it would be quite a learning curve to get the timing down so use the right "level" of spell that you are aiming for.

That's exactly how the Berserker class in TERA Online works. You hold down a button to "charge" up an attack and in the process you can barely move. The amount of time you hold down the button determines the strength of the blow.

It really, really, REALLY sucks. Nothing is worse than squatting there for a few seconds watching your bar build up while the enemy moves out of range. And it is boring. So, so boring. And keep in mind TERA is an "action" MMORPG so normally you're running around, positioning, lining up your attacks. The Berserker feels like a turtle with a giant hammer that you clumsily slam on the ground.

The mechanics do exist in MMOs but they are a mistake when implemented.

Thanks for the reminder. I was going to say I definitely have seen mechanics like this used before and I couldn't remember where. Definitely TERA. I also seem to remember other classes had a couple skills like this as well. I know my Priest had a skill that would return mana to myself and the group and it had 2-3 charge levels. Not something you really want on all of your skills. Just practically speaking, it's not intuitive or fun to play with.

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