Damokles wrote: » You should not talk of rotation if you have not played GW2 in competetive raiding groups. They must have changed the game a lot since launch if this is almost a thing.
bloodprophet wrote: » Damokles wrote: » You should not talk of rotation if you have not played GW2 in competetive raiding groups. They must have changed the game a lot since launch if this is almost a thing.
Damokles wrote: » You should not talk of rotation if you have not played GW2 in competetive raiding groups.
BlackBrony wrote: » I don't like rotations, I rather have priorities on skills to use. Some on cooldown, others after another, but strict rotations end up being something someone else makes and I have to memorize. And I can't possible understand them because the person who did them knows everything because plays 24/7, and I don't, so I end up doing something just for the sake of getting the best DPS possible.
Cold 0ne FTB wrote: » Something I think ashes should consider is implementing a system of dynamic rotations. Dynamic rotations are rotations that change and are different everytime. A really good example is a magsorc from eso. Magsorcs have an ability that has a 20% chance of getting enhanced everytime you cast another ability. This enhanced version is significantly better than the non enhanced and essentially you want to cast this ability enhanced as much as you can and ideally never cast unenhanced.
Noaani wrote: » Cold 0ne FTB wrote: » Something I think ashes should consider is implementing a system of dynamic rotations. Dynamic rotations are rotations that change and are different everytime. A really good example is a magsorc from eso. Magsorcs have an ability that has a 20% chance of getting enhanced everytime you cast another ability. This enhanced version is significantly better than the non enhanced and essentially you want to cast this ability enhanced as much as you can and ideally never cast unenhanced. This is the basics of how a spell priority system breaks away from being a spell rotation system, except a good system will have up to a half dozen such things going on, rather than just one. An example of this is the oft referenced (by me, at least) EQ2. As a wizard, I had a few major spells, a few abilities to maximize damage from spells, and a few short duration buffs from other classes to even further maximize spells. Of my two major spells, one had a standard 45 second cooldown (able to be reduced to 22.5 seconds) and the other had a 180 second recast timer (able to be reduced to 90). The short cooldown ability was single target, the longer one was an AoE of sorts that fired in a cone shape, but only had a 5 meter range from the caster, and could only hit 3 targets max - but it did a lot of damage to all targets. To play the class well, you had to try to always use the abilities to enhance spells with these two specific spells, but you also needed to try and have both (ideally) ready to cast when you were about to get that short duration buff from a raid member. But, in order to not be shit, you still had to use these abilities all the time - it wasn't worth holding off on casting one of these abilities for more than 10 -12 seconds. On top of that, there were various buffs and item procs that would make spells have halve the cooldown. Between these two factors and the dozen or so other abilities the class had, it meant you were never able to plan more than 2 or 3 spells ahead, and you had to make decisions about spell priorities and character positioning essentially on the fly. Basically, a good spell priority system is ESO's Magsorc on steroids.
Cold 0ne FTB wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Cold 0ne FTB wrote: » Something I think ashes should consider is implementing a system of dynamic rotations. Dynamic rotations are rotations that change and are different everytime. A really good example is a magsorc from eso. Magsorcs have an ability that has a 20% chance of getting enhanced everytime you cast another ability. This enhanced version is significantly better than the non enhanced and essentially you want to cast this ability enhanced as much as you can and ideally never cast unenhanced. This is the basics of how a spell priority system breaks away from being a spell rotation system, except a good system will have up to a half dozen such things going on, rather than just one. An example of this is the oft referenced (by me, at least) EQ2. As a wizard, I had a few major spells, a few abilities to maximize damage from spells, and a few short duration buffs from other classes to even further maximize spells. Of my two major spells, one had a standard 45 second cooldown (able to be reduced to 22.5 seconds) and the other had a 180 second recast timer (able to be reduced to 90). The short cooldown ability was single target, the longer one was an AoE of sorts that fired in a cone shape, but only had a 5 meter range from the caster, and could only hit 3 targets max - but it did a lot of damage to all targets. To play the class well, you had to try to always use the abilities to enhance spells with these two specific spells, but you also needed to try and have both (ideally) ready to cast when you were about to get that short duration buff from a raid member. But, in order to not be shit, you still had to use these abilities all the time - it wasn't worth holding off on casting one of these abilities for more than 10 -12 seconds. On top of that, there were various buffs and item procs that would make spells have halve the cooldown. Between these two factors and the dozen or so other abilities the class had, it meant you were never able to plan more than 2 or 3 spells ahead, and you had to make decisions about spell priorities and character positioning essentially on the fly. Basically, a good spell priority system is ESO's Magsorc on steroids. That sounds badass as fuck. Imma check that out.
Marzzo wrote: » Eventually a meta will form and most classes will have a basic rotation. In some games, this rotation can be a bit too much. What I mean by too much is that there are too many abilities in this rotation which can make it bothersome. I have nothing against unique abilities, but too many generic abilities that you need to use constantly is bothersom and can be a problem. For example, if one class has 2-3 rotation abilities, and one has 9, it will be very hard to balance this. The former willl be regarded as a braindead class, while the later will be regarded as a class that requires 2x effort for same results.Take afflicion warlocks from world of warcraft as an example. This is all the abilities they constantly need to do and reapply: Haunt: deals damage over time (18 sec) Unstable affliction: deals damage over time (21 sec) Agony: Deals damage over time (18 sec) Corruption: Deals damage over time (14 sec) Siphon life: deals damage over time (15 sec) Phantom singularity: Deals damage over time (14,9 sec) Soul rot: Deals damage over time (8 sec) Seed of corrutpiton: AOE ability Curse of XXX: Makes the enemy weaker in some way (30 sec) Malefic rapture: deals damageNow lets take a look at another class, the deathknight: Remorseless winter every 20 sec (aoe) Frost strike: Deals damage Obilirate: Deals damage Howling blast: procs randomly, deals damage Since both of these classes need to be balanced to do rougly the same amount of damage/utility during a raid its a nightmare to balance. The affliciton warlock, who also needs to cast his abilities, will need to perform 3-4 times better to stand a chance at permoning as the dk. This also creates some problems. Following that warlock rotation, while still following the boss tactics, or Pvping, is very hard to do correctly. This will create a situation for you developers where you will run into a trap. Based on the "difficulty" at playing the hard rotation class, many normal players will underperform, and many easy rotation classes will overperform. What will you devs do then? Well, you will buff the warlock until the avarage player performs as the other classes, and nerf the dk until it performs as the other classes. This will make good players who can abuse the hard rotation kit dominate high end pvp and pve. While making the deathknight completly useless in high end gameplay.What should you do then? You should make each class rotation vary in difficulty, but do not make them too hard to manage, or too easy to manage. Try to make each rotation interesting and deep in its own way. Offer ways to make your rotation easier/harder, but dont overdue it. Player feedback is key here. There should be the option to use a high skillcap build or lower skillcap build, these need to perform differently so they reward the player that dedicates himself to the higher skillcap build. But it must not be exaggerated.
Marzzo wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » I don't like rotations, I rather have priorities on skills to use. Some on cooldown, others after another, but strict rotations end up being something someone else makes and I have to memorize. And I can't possible understand them because the person who did them knows everything because plays 24/7, and I don't, so I end up doing something just for the sake of getting the best DPS possible. Rotations are not an option. In the end, people will figure out which abilities to use and which order (by prioritizing as you say) and bam, we have a rotation. You cant avoid rotations, but you can make them fun and dynamic and different from fight to fight.
Noaani wrote: » Marzzo wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » I don't like rotations, I rather have priorities on skills to use. Some on cooldown, others after another, but strict rotations end up being something someone else makes and I have to memorize. And I can't possible understand them because the person who did them knows everything because plays 24/7, and I don't, so I end up doing something just for the sake of getting the best DPS possible. Rotations are not an option. In the end, people will figure out which abilities to use and which order (by prioritizing as you say) and bam, we have a rotation. You cant avoid rotations, but you can make them fun and dynamic and different from fight to fight. Sure you can avoid rotations. All you need to do is have enough going on that can change what ability you should use and the notion of a rotation looks as antiquated as it actually is.
Marzzo wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Marzzo wrote: » BlackBrony wrote: » I don't like rotations, I rather have priorities on skills to use. Some on cooldown, others after another, but strict rotations end up being something someone else makes and I have to memorize. And I can't possible understand them because the person who did them knows everything because plays 24/7, and I don't, so I end up doing something just for the sake of getting the best DPS possible. Rotations are not an option. In the end, people will figure out which abilities to use and which order (by prioritizing as you say) and bam, we have a rotation. You cant avoid rotations, but you can make them fun and dynamic and different from fight to fight. Sure you can avoid rotations. All you need to do is have enough going on that can change what ability you should use and the notion of a rotation looks as antiquated as it actually is. Enough going on? 60+ abilities like some MMO classes have where good people still only use the same 5-7 spells in a rotation? Give me one example of a succesful MMO with more than 6 abilities per class that does not have a meta rotation please
