Artificial Scarcity and Emotional Manipulation

The recent poll about daily rewards and other related cosmetic discussions have led me to delve a bit into the nature of artificial scarcity and the manipulative nature of withholding as a means of encouraging someone to do something. I've had many, many, words run through my head in regards to the topic (that in part kept me up last night) but in an effort to remain civil I shall be succinct.

I find the use of a monthly deadline to encourage people to give money, relatively speaking 'Right Now', to a game (that is only in alpha) rather than giving a reasonable time for love and appreciation to blossom into a heart of giving, to be emotionally manipulative.

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mcstackerson

I think it also helps to look at this from the other side and understand how things would be different if the store worked differently.

If they didn't sell cosmetics the way they do, they wouldn't create as many.

If cosmetics weren't monthly exclusives, they wouldn't sell. You can't use them atm so they are useless. Unless a cosmetic was perfect to you, there is no reason for you to buy any until the game is released. This would mean less incentive for intrepid to release them at the rate they do which means less cosmetics.

Would you rather have 1 new cosmetic pack released each year but them being available for longer or monthly cosmetics, which means more options, but as monthly implies, they are only available that month.

To help you comprehend this, go look at each cosmetic that has been released on January every year and compare it to the full catalog. Would you rather only be able to buy the January cosmetics or can you see that if you wait, there is a decent chance that out of the 11 other packs released this year, at least one will probably appeal to you?

If you are upset that you missed a cosmetic you like, you should assume that it probably wouldn't exist if they didn't sell them the way they do.

For me, i prefer the larger volume. Even if i miss something, something better will come in the future.

Maezriel

mcstackerson wrote: »

If cosmetics weren't monthly exclusives, they wouldn't sell. You can't use them atm so they are useless. Unless a cosmetic was perfect to you, there is no reason for you to buy any until the game is released. This would mean less incentive for intrepid to release them at the rate they do which means less cosmetics.

That's kind of the point though, isn't it?

Either the game is funded and the cosmetics are purely for showing support or Intrepid has designed the store to maximize profits.

If it's the former then there's no real reason to keep cosmetics monthly and instead have them all be available as pre-order cosmetics to showcase that you supported development post-Kickstarter. If it's the latter then I understand why the store has been a cause of contention and why many have seen it and hesitated on the game b/c it does feel like a bit of a cash grab.

Nerror

Jahlon wrote: »

Trying to make Intrepid feel bad for bringing in income is pretty emotionally manipulative in and of itself.

Come on man

That's not what I see people are doing here at all. A lot of people don't like the deliberate use of FOMO tactics, and some are criticizing the WAY Intrepid is raising funds for development. Not the 'why' of it.

Noaani

Maezriel wrote: »

@Noaani No one besides you is saying anything about pixels though. What is being sold isn't the topic so much as how it's being sold.

Yes, Steven has said no one needs to buy cosmetics and there are supposed to be equitable ones in game. However, equal is subjective and we know that there won't be recolors available to players so if you really like something you have to buy it when it's available...that's FOMO.

Doesn't mean it's malicious...but it does take advantage of people's fear of missing out.

Equal is subjective, indeed.

However, there is literally no reason to think there wont be cosmetics that you like just as much, or even more, that will be available in-game.

I'm not overly concerned if no one else is bringing up the point of this being about pixels in a game that doesn't exist yet, that is still a point I am bringing up.

If people cant understand that they *need* food, they *need* water, they *need* oxygen, but they don't *need* Stuffertons, then someone needs to point that out to them. There is straight up no reason to fear missing out on a cosmetic for the game, because it straight up doesn't matter.

Being concerned you may miss out on a cosmetic in a game is as idiotic as claiming willful emotional manipulation is at play here.

mcstackerson

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

If cosmetics weren't monthly exclusives, they wouldn't sell. You can't use them atm so they are useless. Unless a cosmetic was perfect to you, there is no reason for you to buy any until the game is released. This would mean less incentive for intrepid to release them at the rate they do which means less cosmetics.

That's kind of the point though, isn't it?

Either the game is funded and the cosmetics are purely for showing support or Intrepid has designed the store to maximize profits.

If it's the former then there's no real reason to keep cosmetics monthly and instead have them all be available as pre-order cosmetics to showcase that you supported development post-Kickstarter. If it's the latter then I understand why the store has been a cause of contention and why many have seen it and hesitated on the game b/c it does feel like a bit of a cash grab.

I think this is beside the point as the quantity of cosmetics doesn't really effect giving a reward to those who supported the game pre-launch. I also think they can be both a way to bring in money to help offset costs and a way to reward those for supporting earlier on.

If you have concerns on the validity of the game, then please wait to see if the game gets completed before spending any money. If their plan is to scam you then them changing how their shop works wouldn't change that.

The argument in my original post was that the current system allows them to produce more cosmetics and so i asked, would you prefer getting less cosmetics but them being premaritally available or more but they are only available for a limited time?

Maezriel

Noaani wrote: »

there is straight up no reason to fear missing out on a cosmetic for the game, because it straight up doesn't matter.

Being concerned you may miss out on a cosmetic in a game is as idiotic as claiming willful emotional manipulation is at play here.

That's not really for you to say. You can certainly think it's dumb but that doesn't mean other people can't value cosmetics...especially since Steven has frequently stated that he's aware that collecting them is a huge part of an MMO's gameplay and he intends for them to be a large part of AoC.

Nerror

Maezriel wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

there is straight up no reason to fear missing out on a cosmetic for the game, because it straight up doesn't matter.

Being concerned you may miss out on a cosmetic in a game is as idiotic as claiming willful emotional manipulation is at play here.

That's not really for you to say. You can certainly think it's dumb but that doesn't mean other people can't value cosmetics...especially since Steven has frequently stated that he's aware that collecting them is a huge part of an MMO's gameplay and he intends for them to be a large part of AoC.

Yeah lol, I was gonna say... what?

@Noaani , the whole point of Intrepid doing this, is that they know these cosmetics mean something to a lot of people. Straight from Steven's mouth:

I want to incentivize purchase in the cosmetic shop for sustainability of what expansions we have intended, since we are not a box cost. I want to incentivize purchase by offering limited items: limited time, limited quantity, so you have confidence that when you purchase them, they won't be offered later on in some other way.

He is straight up saying he is using artificial scarcity to incentivize sales. "Incentivize" of course has a positive connotation and "emotional manipulation" has a negative connotation, but in this specific context they pretty much mean the same thing.

mcstackerson

Nerror wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

there is straight up no reason to fear missing out on a cosmetic for the game, because it straight up doesn't matter.

Being concerned you may miss out on a cosmetic in a game is as idiotic as claiming willful emotional manipulation is at play here.

That's not really for you to say. You can certainly think it's dumb but that doesn't mean other people can't value cosmetics...especially since Steven has frequently stated that he's aware that collecting them is a huge part of an MMO's gameplay and he intends for them to be a large part of AoC.

Yeah lol, I was gonna say... what?

@Noaani , the whole point of Intrepid doing this, is that they know these cosmetics mean something to a lot of people. Straight from Steven's mouth:

I want to incentivize purchase in the cosmetic shop for sustainability of what expansions we have intended, since we are not a box cost. I want to incentivize purchase by offering limited items: limited time, limited quantity, so you have confidence that when you purchase them, they won't be offered later on in some other way.

He is straight up saying he is using artificial scarcity to incentivize sales. "Incentivize" of course has a positive connotation and "emotional manipulation" has a negative connotation, but in this specific context they pretty much mean the same thing.

Isn't it also emotional manipulation if they make something you think looks cool and would like to buy? they are manipulating you into wanting something by making it visually appealing to you.

As Noaani has pointed out, intrepid isn't selling anything you need. These aren't essential items, even in the context of the game. At the end of the day, you want this for selfish reasons and are using "emotional manipulation" to try to get them to give you what you want. You aren't just giving a subjective opinion on how you would prefer the shop to be implemented, you are accusing them of doing something negative ("emotioanl manipulation") and saying they should change because they are doing this negative thing.

Noaani

Maezriel wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

there is straight up no reason to fear missing out on a cosmetic for the game, because it straight up doesn't matter.

Being concerned you may miss out on a cosmetic in a game is as idiotic as claiming willful emotional manipulation is at play here.

That's not really for you to say. You can certainly think it's dumb but that doesn't mean other people can't value cosmetics...especially since Steven has frequently stated that he's aware that collecting them is a huge part of an MMO's gameplay and he intends for them to be a large part of AoC.

I'm not saying people can't value cosmetics if they want to. I do find it stupid, and I consider it important to point out that in the grand scheme of things, it really, *really* doesn't matter.

However, the point I am making is that people can't value half a set with literally no knowledge of the remainder of that set. It straight up isn't possible to know what value you yourself place on any one cosmetic, until you know all available cosmetics.

There may well be a time where this argument has some validity to people that value cosmetics. However, that time isn't until we have a solid understanding of what cosmetics will be available in-game.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Isn't it also emotional manipulation if they make something you think looks cool and would like to buy? they are manipulating you into wanting something by making it visually appealing to you.

By the reckoning in this thread, Intrepid making a game that people wanting to play, thus requiring them to pay a subscription is emotional manipulation.

Nerror

mcstackerson wrote: »

Isn't it also emotional manipulation if they make something you think looks cool and would like to buy? they are manipulating you into wanting something by making it visually appealing to you.

Noaani wrote: »

By the reckoning in this thread, Intrepid making a game that people wanting to play, thus requiring them to pay a subscription is emotional manipulation.

Yes, you can call it that for both. I wouldn't use "emotional manipulation" myself, because of the negative connotation. I think the cosmetics look beautiful and the game promises to be a lot of fun, which are both positive emotions, making me want to spend money for positive reasons.

The objection is specifically that the cash shop uses Fear Of Missing Out tactics to increase sales. Fear is a negative emotion to use, thus the use of "emotional manipulation" is appropriate, since the connotation matches the context.

This really shouldn't be that hard to understand, and I think you're getting too hung up on the connotation to see the point being made, whether you agree with it or not.

mcstackerson wrote: »

As Noaani has pointed out, intrepid isn't selling anything you need. These aren't essential items, even in the context of the game. At the end of the day, you want this for selfish reasons and are using "emotional manipulation" to try to get them to give you what you want. You aren't just giving a subjective opinion on how you would prefer the shop to be implemented, you are accusing them of doing something negative ("emotioanl manipulation") and saying they should change because they are doing this negative thing.

I mean, yes, in a way.. I am not sure what your point is here, other than trying to ascribe motives to me and make me look bad? You wrote that for selfish reasons too. Ultimately everything we do is for selfish reasons. Helping others is partly a selfish act, because it makes us either feel good, or it helps us in a different way down the line.

My motive for criticizing Intrepid for the FOMO tactics in the cash shop is that it will hurt the game long term in terms of player retention and quite possibly new player aquisition as well, unless they tone the FOMO tactics way down. There are other studies that back that up as well.

I don't care much for the past cosmetics really, but I sure as shit care about the contents and longevity of this game, because that directly affects my future fun. So selfish? Yeah, I really want this game to succeed for my own sake as well. There are ways to fundraise without using fear as a driver.

Noaani

Nerror wrote: »

The objection is specifically that the cash shop uses Fear Of Missing Out tactics to increase sales. Fear is a negative emotion to use, thus the use of "emotional manipulation" is appropriate, since the connotation matches the context.

Again, the issue with this is the fact that we don't have any information at all as to the rest of the cosmetics that will be available.

The number of cosmetics that Intrepid are able to release is essentially near infinate. It is in Intrepids best interest to keep releasing more and better cosmetics as time goes on, in order to continue bringing in money. Eventually, any cosmetics that a player may feel they want now will eventually be superseded by one they like more. Intrepid need to enure this in order to make sure they continue to make money from their shop.

As such, complaining of FOMO for these cosmetics is completely at odds with reality.

Being afraid that you may miss out on one or two is not a valid complaint, and is absolutely not reason to accuse Intrepid of emotional manipulation.

This really shouldn't be that hard to understand, and I think you're getting too hung up on the connotation to see the point being made, whether you agree with it or not.

Not at all.

While I totally disagree with the use of the term 'emotional manipulation' being applied here, I have also pointed out several times (including above in this post) that even the notion of FOMO in regards to these cosmetics is not appropriate. At least not yet.

I fully understand what the complaint is, I just happen to disagree with it from several different perspectives.

Edit to add, that study you linked is about missing out on experiences, not on cosmetics. In terms of an MMORPG, that study would only be applicable to players missing out on actual content, not on cosmetics.

Maezriel

Noaani wrote: »

While I totally disagree with the use of the term 'emotional manipulation' being applied here, I have also pointed out several times (including above in this post) that even the notion of FOMO in regards to these cosmetics is not appropriate. At least not yet.

To you, b/c you don't value the cosmetics at all you have zero fear of missing out. I don't know how to better explain that you don't represent the majority of players b/c if you did Intrepid wouldn't even make cosmetics b/c none of them would sell.

If someone sees a cosmetic they like they have to buy it then b/c they'll never get another chance to purchase it. That's FOMO, pure and simple. This isn't an argument or opinion, it's an objective fact. You can't sell something (especially pixels) temporarily and not have it be rooted in FOMO.

The only subjective thing here is the amount of "fear" one feels. It can range anywhere from "Meh" to "OMG I HAVE TO HAVE IT" and that'll wildly vary from person to person and even day by day. To further clarify, the word fear here doesn't immediately mean "deer in the headlights I'm going to die" emotions...just that you don't want to miss out on a limited time offer.

Even if it doesn't for you, it will elicit an emotional response (however mild or extreme) to most people hence the store and hence OPs use of the term "emotional manipulation" b/c it is. That's not necessarily a bad thing and how "bad" it is is also left to the individual to decide.

The takeaway here is even if it doesn't immediately apply to you and it's not something you find yourself relating too, the use of these terms isn't wrong.

Nerror

Noaani wrote: »

Again, the issue with this is the fact that we don't have any information at all as to the rest of the cosmetics that will be available.

Exactly, uncertainty and lack of knowledge causes fear.

Noaani wrote: »

The number of cosmetics that Intrepid are able to release is essentially near infinate.

Definitely false.

Noaani wrote: »

It is in Intrepids best interest to keep releasing more and better cosmetics as time goes on, in order to continue bringing in money. Eventually, any cosmetics that a player may feel they want now will eventually be superseded by one they like more. Intrepid need to enure this in order to make sure they continue to make money from their shop.

This is true, if they keep on this road.

Noaani wrote: »

As such, complaining of FOMO for these cosmetics is completely at odds with reality.

You should tell that to Steven then, because he is counting on it working for the cash shop

Noaani wrote: »

Edit to add, that study you linked is about missing out on experiences, not on cosmetics. In terms of an MMORPG, that study would only be applicable to players missing out on actual content, not on cosmetics.

Cosmetics = content. What are you on about? It's an important part of AoC and Steven's goals for the game. He wants lots and lots of cosmetics in the game, because almost all players care about looking good. Some more than others of course.

But, I feel like we aren't going to agree at all on this. Your arguments, definitions and points of view seem alien to me, and indeed at odds with reality, so I think we'll just keep going in circles about this. I've made my points, peace out

Noaani

Maezriel wrote: »

The takeaway here is even if it doesn't immediately apply to you and it's not something you find yourself relating too, the use of these terms isn't wrong.

The term emotional manipulation should only ever be applied to situations where it is willful emotional manipulation that is done in a way that causes known harm to the person being manipulated.

If you do not limit it to this, then you have to apply it to literally any situation in which one person alters the emotions of another. This means it is applies to literally every person, every thing, every where, at all times.

This means Intrepid are emotionally manipulating you in the same way that a loved one may emotionally manipulate you by bringing you breakfast in bed, or a todler that paints you a picture. All three are forms of emotional manipulation, if you don't restrict the use of the term as outlined above.

So, you either stick to the term having meaning, or you remove all meaning from it completely. I chose to retain it's meaning, which means it is absolutely not appropriate to use here. You seem to chose to remove it's meaning, which means you can apply it here if you want, but since the term has no meaning to you any longer, there is no point in ever using it.

To you, b/c you don't value the cosmetics at all you have zero fear of missing out.

I place value on cosmetics. I have been known to spend reasonable amounts of money on them in the past.

The reason I don't suffer from FOMO at all is because I know - again as I have said in this thread - that it is in Intrepids best interest to always one-up themselves. This means there will always be new cosmrtics that I like even more being released.

As such, there is no point in being concerned with missing out on the current ones, as I know there will be better ones.

Maezriel

@Noaani in the context of sales and marketing emotional manipulation 100% applies as it's a common term and tactic used throughout the industry...b/c that's the entire point of sales and marketing.

For example, In 2014 Budweiser put out an ad against drunk driving. It's a great ad, promotes a great message, and it does so by not just tugging on your heartstrings, but grabbing firmly and yanking hard.

Nothing is inherently bad about it, but it's undeniably manipulative.

Noaani

Maezriel wrote: »

Nothing is inherently bad about it, but it's undeniably manipulative.

I am saying the term "emotional manipulation" has specific connotations. Just because a thing manipulates emotions, doesn't mean you should label it as emotionally manipulative.

When you put two specific words together in any language, they often take on a different meaning to the actual words themselves. An example of this would be watching TV. If you tell someone that you are going to watch TV, they will understand that to mean you are going to turn the TV on, and watch something that it is displaying. They will not assume you are going to sit there watching an unplugged TV, even though that is a valid action for you to take based on the term "watching TV".

In common useage, "emotional manipulation" has a specific connotation. That connotation is always negative, and as such, the term should only be used when it fits that specific connotation.

This situation does not fit that connotation, nor does the add you linked - even if that add is manipulative.

Now, even if you totally ignore all of the above, I still don't see how that can apply to the cosmetic situation. In order for someone to be concerned that they would be missing out, they have to assume that there will never be a cosmetic that they like more made for the game.

If they do assume that there will be a cosmetic that they like more made for the game, then they have no reason to be concerned about missing out on any of the current cosmetics.

So again, back to the point I have been making all along. This thread is "wrong" on two counts.

The first is the notion of FOMO in regards to a set of items that is not even 10% complete yet, and that has to get better as time goes on in order for the set to be viable.

This is clearly a stupid position for someone to take.

On the off chance someone did take this position, there is then the use of the term "emotionally manipulative" to the practice of a company offering an item that some people may want, and restricting it in some way (artificial or not - that is a non-factor).

As a term, that is 100% out of place to be used in a situation wher FOMO is real, let alone to use here where FOMO is clearly and demonstrably not appropriate.

Maezriel

@Noaani I have a little over 5 years of sales and marketing under my belt and I can assure you, marketing by it's very nature is intended to illicit an emotional response...by...y'know...manipulating your emotions. Emotional marketing is a very common term.

As far as FOMO, the amount of products is wholly irrelevant. You want the customer to make a purchase...and you want them to make it as quickly as possible. The most common way of doing this is by limiting the amount of time someone has to purchase whatever it is you're selling. Doesn't matter if Intrepid has made one or a million, so long as there's a limited time in which to purchase a cosmetic it will take advantage of a player's FOMO.

I'm sorry man, but the only thing "wrong" in this entire thread are the very definitions you're pushing b/c in the context of sales and marketing (which is what we're talking about) these are the terms and their definitions.

Noaani

It's almost like you are willing yourself to not listen.

Maezriel wrote: »

intended to illicit an emotional response
manipulating your emotions
Emotional marketing

I'm not talking about any of these.

I am talking about the specifics of joining the words "Emotional" and "Manipulation" together. In that specific order, no less.

The three terms you used above are not interchangable with the term emotional manipulation. If you believe they are, next time you are talking with someone in advertising, specifically use the term Emotional Manipulation instead of emotional marketing, see how that conversation goes.

You want the customer to make a purchase...and you want them to make it as quickly as possible. The most common way of doing this is by limiting the amount of time someone has to purchase whatever it is you're selling. D

From Intrepids perspective, sure.

I mean, not really, but I'm happy to just go with that.

The thing is, I am not talking about Intrepids perspective, just as I am not talking about the term Emotional Marketing.

I am talking about the perspective of the OP. They should know full well that Intrepid will need to continue to make better and better cosmetics in order to continue to sell them to the same group of people.

This is all basic and obvious stuff.

As such, in a situation like this, FOMO is simply not a logical thing. This means that if the OP is indeed afraid of missing out while understanding the basic and obvious fact that of course Intrepid need to constantly make better and better cosmetics, that fear is illogical, making it a phobia.

Maezriel

Noaani wrote: »

If you believe they are, next time you are talking with someone in advertising, specifically use the term Emotional Manipulation instead of emotional marketing, see how that conversation goes.

I already said I have over 5 years of experience in sales and marketing. I guarantee I've had plenty of conversations on this very topic. Emotional advertising specifically means to manipulate emotionally...which is another way to say be emotionally manipulative. I can't help you accept this man, it is just the nature of the English language that context can change the meaning of a word/term.

If I say Netflix and Chill to my wife there's no implication that I want to watch anything...however if I say it to my little brother my pants are staying on as is the TV.

Does the clinical meaning emotional manipulation imply something far more sinister and bring images of actions such as gaslighting? Sure. Doesn't mean in the context of marketing that I'm misusing a word that I've used professionally...w/ professionals...for years.

I am talking about the perspective of the OP. They should know full well that Intrepid will need to continue to make better and better cosmetics in order to continue to sell them to the same group of people.

This is all basic and obvious stuff.

They don't need to make "increasingly better" cosmetics. Better is wholly subjective and near impossible to properly define which is actually a common topic when it comes to the lack of clarity w/ what the "better" cosmetics will be in the game. Intrepid only needs to make different cosmetics for the store and I'd bet money that that's what the absolute vast majority of players are expecting each month...not better, merely different/unique.

As it was my profession up until last March I'd like to think I know a little about these terms and I'm telling you, it's FOMO and it's emotional manipulation.

Neither are inherently bad or malicious...but it is what they are.

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