Macros in Ashes?

I haven't played to many mmorpgs, mostly ESO and WoW. But when it comes to world of warcraft, one can write some pretty interesting macros to help and assist you with your rotation and other things.

Examples:
Targeting macros, spell sequence, change/cancel form or stance, potion/food buff into a spell, modifier to add multiple spells to the same button, and much more.

I'm just wondering what other people think about macros and how other games have implemented it compared to WoW, and if it should be a thing in Ashes.

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Comments

Warth

there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes.
That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago

unknownsystemerror

The issue with macros is that from an anti cheat metric perspective it's difficult to define what a macro is against a script. And in order to catch all scripts sometimes you have to prevent the macro usage. So really that's a that's a data issue. If we allow for macros then we lose our ability to precisely ban script users, botters.[1] – Steven Sharif

rikardp98

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

The issue with macros is that from an anti cheat metric perspective it's difficult to define what a macro is against a script. And in order to catch all scripts sometimes you have to prevent the macro usage. So really that's a that's a data issue. If we allow for macros then we lose our ability to precisely ban script users, botters.[1] – Steven Sharif

Yeah that sounds reasonable, but couldn't you make a in-game system that allows you to code/create your macros. This will mean that the team will have full control over what commands can and can not be used. All other macros and scripts will be seen as cheating.

Do you guys think macros should be a thing?

Vhaeyne

rikardp98 wrote: »

Do you guys think macros should be a thing?

As long as the HUD and Key bindings are robust, they should not be needed.

While I understand that macros are convenient, and have used them where necessary in every game that allows them. I don't need macros to play most games. FFXI is actually the only game I would never play without macros (I use quite the macros suite in that game).

I will adjust my opinion on this further as I get into the alphas, but I don't expect that macros will be needed.
I would also like to add that with a decent programable keyboard, and key binds you can accomplish nearly anything a macros system would allow. The only reason I use macros in FFXI is to turn macros into those key binds since FFXI did not allow you to change your key binds.

VmanGman

Macros suck. I hate the fact that my skill in WoW PvP is partially based on how many macros I'm using.

bloodprophet

Macros can be good and can be really bad as well.
Playing Rift pre first expansion. I was running a dungeon the tank had a macro set up for his rotation. He got up and answered the door for pizza delivery during a boss fight. Never lost aggro and only I knew he got up cause we were in Vent talking. This kind of stuff is bad. I also had a macro for my battle rez with a snarky comment about being lazy during combat when I would rez someone. That was good and fun. I can go either way if they don't....meh.

Kearavain

rikardp98 wrote: »

Yeah that sounds reasonable, but couldn't you make a in-game system that allows you to code/create your macros. This will mean that the team will have full control over what commands can and can not be used. All other macros and scripts will be seen as cheating.

You bring up a good point. If there were a block-based system like Scratch (Click to see), it would make a lot of sense for an in-game macro system; as the limitations and scope of the macro would be defined by the blocks.

Steven Sarif wrote:

The issue with macros is that from an anti cheat metric perspective it's difficult to define what a macro is against a script. And in order to catch all scripts sometimes you have to prevent the macro usage. So really that's a that's a data issue. If we allow for macros then we lose our ability to precisely ban script users, botters.[6] – Steven Sharif

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Security_systems#Macros

Yet, suppose a system like this is put in place; in that case, each custom macro can have its unique UID and be easily identified per user (theoretically even shared), making it very easy to identify. Likewise, a macro system would need to be pretty limited (no "wait" commands) as you would quickly run into the issue pointed out by Steven above. Thinking about it, I am not sure about the overhead of data in client -> server communications either (my gut says without timing functions, it would be relatively minuscule, but I am no expert), and the workload of implementing such a system would most likely be astronomical. We can dream, though.

vmangman wrote:

Macros suck. I hate the fact that my skill in WoW PvP is partially based on how many macros I'm using.

I think the point lies somewhere in when does a macro become a script. In my mind, a macro allows the simple manipulation or customization of how a player skill is executed (and can be executed in one game loop). Likewise, a script tends to automate some aspect of the player's experience (and is executed over multiple game loops).

Continuing that viewpoint, I feel macros enable gameplay styles unique to the user by customizing the user experience - while scripts often retract from the experience because they usually remove or automate game mechanics.

rikardp98

bloodprophet wrote: »

Macros can be good and can be really bad as well.
Playing Rift pre first expansion. I was running a dungeon the tank had a macro set up for his rotation. He got up and answered the door for pizza delivery during a boss fight. Never lost aggro and only I knew he got up cause we were in Vent talking. This kind of stuff is bad. I also had a macro for my battle rez with a snarky comment about being lazy during combat when I would rez someone. That was good and fun. I can go either way if they don't....meh.

I wouldn't call that a macro, that's much more like a script xD

In wow classic for example you can not have more than one spell that activated the GCD (global cool down) in a macro. This means that you can not have a rotation in your macro, but you can have for example a non-gcd spell into a GCD spell.

Example: in wow classic I play a druid, druids have a non-gcd spell that allows the next healing spell to be instant. I have a macro that activated this spell and instantly after I cast my biggest heal with out any casting time. It's quick and very useful in I damaged situations.

Now, i don't know if ashes well have a GCD it not, but if they implemented their own macro system in the game that can limit it how much they want.

But I also agree with @Vhaeyne in that, if the UI and keybinds are robust then macros may not be needed.

daveywavey

Macros are cheating, plain and simple.

rikardp98

daveywavey wrote: »

Macros are cheating, plain and simple.

Wouldn't that mean that macros keys on mouses and keyboards are cheating?

And I understand that IP may see it like cheating because of convince, but why do you see it as cheating?

daveywavey

Using additional coding to perform actions quicker than should be possible in order to gain an advantage over an opponent. I remember PvP in ESO where I'd be hit 14 times in a single second, cos the other player was spamming macros. Cheating, plain and simple.

Vhaeyne

daveywavey wrote: »

Using additional coding to perform actions quicker than should be possible in order to gain an advantage over an opponent. I remember PvP in ESO where I'd be hit 14 times in a single second, cos the other player was spamming macros. Cheating, plain and simple.

How do you prevent this if the spam is coming from the keyboard hardware?

Jeetoph

Vhaeyne wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Using additional coding to perform actions quicker than should be possible in order to gain an advantage over an opponent. I remember PvP in ESO where I'd be hit 14 times in a single second, cos the other player was spamming macros. Cheating, plain and simple.

How do you prevent this if the spam is coming from the keyboard hardware?

That's a good point. If it's possible to hit you 14 times in a second with a macro it's also possible to do it manually. That's just bad game design at this point.

rikardp98

daveywavey wrote: »

Using additional coding to perform actions quicker than should be possible in order to gain an advantage over an opponent. I remember PvP in ESO where I'd be hit 14 times in a single second, cos the other player was spamming macros. Cheating, plain and simple.

But ESO was never a game where macros was intended to be used or needed (maximum of 5 spells per bar). And the real problem with eso was the animation canceling, and if you did that with a "macro" then it's a script and not a macro.
And if I remember correctly ESO did not have a in-game macro system?

Macro in my definition is a very simple and basic single press = single GCD spell + side action. No "wait" commands or something like that.

Lycancoffee

Macros and mods don’t belong in competitive games. Consoles consider macro controllers “cheating”. It’s too bad it is so hard to reduce macroing for PC.

rikardp98

Another great example if a interesting macro is a mouse over macro I have in wow classic.

If I target the boss and heal, I will heal the target of the boss (the tank), if I have my mouse over a friendly health bar on my UI I will heal that friendly target, if I have no target I will heal myself.

If I make all my healing spells with this macro I can easily be a tank healer but also a fast raid healer. Simple macro but very helpful.

rikardp98

Lycancoffee wrote: »

Macros and mods don’t belong in competitive games. Consoles consider macro controllers “cheating”. It’s too bad it is so hard to reduce macroing for PC.

Well on consoles you would need to by a new controller while a in-game macro system would be free.

Taleof2Cities

daveywavey wrote: »

I remember PvP in ESO where I'd be hit 14 times in a single second, cos the other player was spamming macros. Cheating, plain and simple.

Macros are an issue in ESO PvE end game raiding as well ... but it's not as widely reported since the opponents are, well, bosses.

In contrast, FFXIV literally requires macros. Due to game mechanics (especially crafting) that require a long sequence of actions to achieve a specific outcome.

I think @Vhaeyne's comment is still the best one in the thread.

If Intrepid gives players a proper UI and enough tools to keybind actions, Steven's goal will be fulfilled.

Tyranthraxus

Warth wrote: »

there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes.
That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago

Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video.

Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components.

I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros.

rikardp98

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

there won't be supported/legal macros in Ashes.
That was confirmed by intrepid a long time ago

Aye - thank the gods, for this! I want to say it was either an interview done before the monthly update videos, or in one of the very early Q&A's at the end of an early monthly update video.

Yours truly used macros for controlling battle droids and for certain gathering stuff in Star Wars: Galaxies. In essence, it is a form of cheating. I was able to walk away for hours and leave my character logged in, to gather things like resources or sub-components.

I don't think there will be anything that can be done about out-of-game, keyboard-and-mouse related macros, though. Yours truly has never used any of these, so I wouldn't be able to tell you, for certain. As satisfying as it can be to invent, write, and execute macros in other games, I'm grateful for the fact that AoC will not support actual, in-game macros.

I do believe that being able to make a script (advanced macro) so you can leave the computer and still move and do action in game should be illegal.

However, with a in-game macro IP can limit the macros so no more than one action (GCD) can not be used. Like I'm wow classic, you can't not use "while" or "wait" commands to wait for the GCD to run out.

When I say macro I mean very simple commands like

/Cast [target=mouseover, exist, help][help][@targettarget,help][target=player]"spell"

Or

/Cancelaura Greater Blessing of Salvation
/Startattack
/Cast Maul

Or

/Pull 7

Or

/Equip The end of dreams
/Equip Therazanes Touch

Simple macros and not scripts.

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