The uncertain direction of animations

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned but I came across a comment when watching the recent showcase for the tank skills which kind of hits the head of the nail for me.

The comment was the following:
"I'm really looking forward to Ashes but the animations seem quite disappointing all round to me, the movements seem really inhuman, disjointed or impractical and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder. The main concern for me seems to be down primarily to artistic direction or lack of it. The decisions made and the thinking behind the culmination of these animations worries me. I feel like the animation department needs new leadership and quickly. A cohesive direction needs to be made and enforced.
These animations are all over the place, a unified design philosophy is what is missing. As it stands this seems like inexperienced forced spectacle and there is little more cringe educing."

I don't want to be negative or like some people would call it, "being picky", but I truly share the concerns of this comment.

I just wanted to create a discussion to see what other people think about the subject.

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Comments

Songcaller

I mentioned the issues in the other thread about tanks. I mention the issues every now and then. I can't mention the issues too often because I don't like to whine lol.

UE4 is a difficult engine for movement. If you don't spend a long time fixing the issue with UE4 movement then everything that is built on top the of unchanged engine will be flawed and lack relational vibes. You can make gorgeous scenery in UE4. The engine isn't the worst engine. The problem comes when the amalgamation process takes place. You can lift an element from a third source but if you lack the flare and the engine to pull it off it just looks weird.

The team are veteran MMO designers for the most part. None of them seem to have worked with UE4 before. The combat should be fluid like Archeage, not static like Lineage 2. Polish can't rectify an inherent flaw unless you start from the very fabric of the movement systems. I do not know if the team have the time or the resources to go back to the base source.

If I was paying a monthly sub then I would expect better. There is no box cost but I've spent more than 8 times the amount of a box cost for packages and cosmetics. The issues are still very blatant and it is fortunate we are in Alpha 1 area. The iterations will be improved but I wonder just how much improvement can be made without resetting the iterations entirely. There is no reason to have lifts/levitation/jumps. The skills should be activated while running or moving. It is the essence of a good combat system.

The animations themselves are long winded and animation locked. I do not mind an animation lock for some skills, there will be no animation cancelling though so every active skill will be a chore. You can animation lock while allowing movement. Animation lock and static abilities do not blend well together.

Blandmarrow

Neurath wrote: »

If I was paying a monthly sub then I would expect better. There is no box cost but I've spent more than 8 times the amount of a box cost for packages and cosmetics. The issues are still very blatant and it is fortunate we are in Alpha 1 area. The iterations will be improved but I wonder just how much improvement can be made without resetting the iterations entirely. There is no reason to have lifts/levitation/jumps. The skills should be activated while running or moving. It is the essence of a good combat system.

The animations themselves are long winded and animation locked. I do not mind an animation lock for some skills, there will be no animation cancelling though so every active skill will be a chore. You can animation lock while allowing movement. Animation lock and static abilities do not blend well together.

I certainly agree with this.

daveywavey

Blandmarrow wrote: »

I feel like the animation department needs new leadership and quickly.

Well, if a random comment from some nobody doesn't make a company sack its staff and hire new ones, I don't know what will.

daveywavey

My favourite part was this:

Blandmarrow wrote: »

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned
...
and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder.

They have a good team of experienced staff. Let them do what they do, and if it turns out you don't like it, you'll always have the option of not playing.

Blandmarrow

daveywavey wrote: »

My favourite part was this:

Blandmarrow wrote: »

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned
...
and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder.

They have a good team of experienced staff. Let them do what they do, and if it turns out you don't like it, you'll always have the option of not playing.

I will, thanks.

Doesn't mean I won't voice my concerns or disappointments even in this early stage of development.

daveywavey

And that's fine. That's what they've opened themselves up to by letting us in this early on.

However, consider it from the following perspective: For this early on in the game development, the graphics and the animations are spectacular. The fact that they're able to show us anything this beautifully designed and well constructed, so early on, is a great achievement and looks very promising for the game's future.

Songcaller

Steven said they don't release Articles because of 'Eyes on the Articles' and the potential broadcast the Articles have. Then we get these visual releases of the systems, which, are not perfect in the slightest. We are allowed to feedback our opinions on the issues. We're aware updates will come and that it is early release, however, the visual releases are given for critique. If we don't critique issues to the best of our knowledge/opinion then we would become rather mindless and pointless cash cows.

BobzUrUncle

I don't understand the 'uncertain direction of animations'. Intrepid has a design. They are following it. That is about as certain as it gets.

Songcaller

Long ago, combat had quick time events. Anyone could have known quick time events in combat are no use. Combat was static and combat is still static. Quick Time Events were removed due to feedback. It would be nice if the next iteration of combat isn't static. IS have thousands of pages of design. Sometimes their ideas don't translate well and it is through devotion and passion that some of us point to the issues.

I understand most of what we discuss will probably never reach the devs. I also understand I wont sleep well if I do not stand by IS and explain the issues. Ultimately, I want to play Ashes of Creation. Certain issues will drive me away.

Edit: When you can see trends in the animations and classes, there is an underlying issue which must be addressed. The more classes and iterations which run with the same flaws, the bigger the work will be to correct the issues and the less likely the issues will be fixed.

Blandmarrow

daveywavey wrote: »

And that's fine. That's what they've opened themselves up to by letting us in this early on.

However, consider it from the following perspective: For this early on in the game development, the graphics and the animations are spectacular. The fact that they're able to show us anything this beautifully designed and well constructed, so early on, is a great achievement and looks very promising for the game's future.

Sure, I guess you have a point. However, the animation team still has a pattern of making things that are over the top.

Leiloni

Some people on the r/MMORPG thread where the Tank video was posted had some similar concerns about combat. A number of people said combat animations looked like ESO and one even said it looked like RIFT as well (both of which are intended as a criticism). One guy got a bit more specific and said the combat animations "are a little too fast and a little too stiff". Another commenter said that "animations looks clunky as hell".

Hellfar

This is a great thread and topic that the studio should remain mindful of. Regardless of how early it is in the development stages, it is important that the underlying foundation for these animations are iterated upon based on public feedback before it is too late. Letting them just 'do what they do' is not an option. We have skin in the game here.

Tyranthraxus

Looks just fine to me.

On the other hand, I've never played/not played a game for it's animations.

Kurgon

My opinion on the animations for the combat abilities is that they are a bit over the top. It's not a deal breaker for me, but it gets in the way of "immersion." Just my 2 cents.

Cypher

Someone, somewhere in the chain of command, doesn’t understand the “action” part of “action combat” because if they did, we wouldn’t see just about every skill of all 3 of the classes showcased so far be completely locked into a long animation (and probably totally locked in place) when using abilities.
As others have said, some abilities should definitely lock you in place, where it makes sense. But every single ability can not and should not do that.
And by the way I like having spectacle in the combat, but these are supposed to be low level skills for one, and for two every single skill can’t be spectacle just for the sake of it. Why would the tank impale an enemy and just leave the weapon? Pull your sword back out.
And why is there lava/fire effects from stomping the ground? This is a low level tank. If the character picks up a mage subclass then by all means let the abilities have some elements infused.

Vhaeyne

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Looks just fine to me.

On the other hand, I've never played/not played a game for it's animations.

I have never player a game for the animations as well. If the game has the systems I look for in I generally try it out.

The issue I am having with AOC is that they put this videos out there, and time after time I see reaction threads where people are saying the animations are a little over done or clunky. Then they remind us it is all place holder. Then they do it again.

When talking about the visual direction of they game they say they want things to look good and fantasy, but not silly. Well to me some of these animations are silly. These are level 1-10 animations were talking about. I fear how crazy a level 40-50 skill is going to look.

All that said. If they just said. "We like over the top animations." I would think they are doing a great job. I just have not gotten the feeling that they like over the top anything with how grounded the rest of the game looks in comparison.

Mushin

Would it make sense for them to hire professionals to do motion capture with martial artists.

Sathrago

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Looks just fine to me.

On the other hand, I've never played/not played a game for it's animations.

I have never player a game for the animations as well. If the game has the systems I look for in I generally try it out.

The issue I am having with AOC is that they put this videos out there, and time after time I see reaction threads where people are saying the animations are a little over done or clunky. Then they remind us it is all place holder. Then they do it again.

When talking about the visual direction of they game they say they want things to look good and fantasy, but not silly. Well to me some of these animations are silly. These are level 1-10 animations were talking about. I fear how crazy a level 40-50 skill is going to look.

All that said. If they just said. "We like over the top animations." I would think they are doing a great job. I just have not gotten the feeling that they like over the top anything with how grounded the rest of the game looks in comparison.

My thoughts exactly on this. It really surprised me how much "magical effect" a supposedly martial archetype's abilities project. This dude is level 10 and strong enough to slam the ground so hard it turned into lava. What am I to make of this? Weren't our characters just now returning to a world of magic after thousands of years hidden away from it? Add that onto them being stuck in the medieval stage of civilization for thousands of years without any technological advance to be seen and you get a really odd desync between the lore and what we are being shown.

Perhaps this doesn't matter to most, but it is really confusing to reconcile these details, and kind of off-putting.

Dreoh

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Looks just fine to me.

On the other hand, I've never played/not played a game for it's animations.

I just wanted to comment really quick that this is a bit disingenuous to say because nobody plays a game solely for the animations. Nor solely for the sound. Nor solely for the textures. But it's always glaringly apparent when one of these or another aspect of a game is below average.

Blandmarrow

Hellfar wrote: »

This is a great thread and topic that the studio should remain mindful of. Regardless of how early it is in the development stages, it is important that the underlying foundation for these animations are iterated upon based on public feedback before it is too late. Letting them just 'do what they do' is not an option. We have skin in the game here.

For sure. I can't suspend my disbelief when I see the animations and effects at the moment, because they don't feel grounded in the reality they are setting the world out to be.

As many are pointing out as well, there doesn't seem to be any logic or purpose behind the direction of abilities and their animations.
Some examples:
- why does the javelin throw cause stones and dust to rise??
- Myrmidons animation doesn't seem to indicate what the ability does at all. The tooltip they give is that it increases your damage mitigation but I can barely tell how the character swings the sword.
- Why does Shockwave, a stomp ability, cause lava to erupt?

Abilities should convey what they do before they try do anything else.

Oh yeah, then there is also smoke and particles for each and every hit to indicate that you hit your target, why?

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