The uncertain direction of animations

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned but I came across a comment when watching the recent showcase for the tank skills which kind of hits the head of the nail for me.

The comment was the following:
"I'm really looking forward to Ashes but the animations seem quite disappointing all round to me, the movements seem really inhuman, disjointed or impractical and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder. The main concern for me seems to be down primarily to artistic direction or lack of it. The decisions made and the thinking behind the culmination of these animations worries me. I feel like the animation department needs new leadership and quickly. A cohesive direction needs to be made and enforced.
These animations are all over the place, a unified design philosophy is what is missing. As it stands this seems like inexperienced forced spectacle and there is little more cringe educing."

I don't want to be negative or like some people would call it, "being picky", but I truly share the concerns of this comment.

I just wanted to create a discussion to see what other people think about the subject.

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Blandmarrow

mushin wrote: »

Would it make sense for them to hire professionals to do motion capture with martial artists.

I don't think that is the issue, but it would make them less silly and more grounded in reality.

uao

mushin wrote: »

Would it make sense for them to hire professionals to do motion capture with martial artists.

absolutely.

Mushin

Blandmarrow wrote: »

mushin wrote: »

Would it make sense for them to hire professionals to do motion capture with martial artists.

I don't think that is the issue, but it would make them less silly and more grounded in reality.

What do you think the issue is? For me when I see the animations most them look unnatural. All the effects stuff can be done later.

Tyranthraxus

Dreoh wrote: »

I just wanted to comment really quick that this is a bit disingenuous to say because nobody plays a game solely for the animations. Nor solely for the sound. Nor solely for the textures. But it's always glaringly apparent when one of these or another aspect of a game is below average.

I'm sure it's a bigger deal for people who are into game-dev, as your sig implies. Yours truly has only re-made "Flappy Bird" in Unity, and more recently started to build some 3D worlds in UE5.

Keep in mind, my 1st MMO was the same as Steven's: The original 1991 - 1997 Neverwinter Nights Online, playable only on America Online. Our combat animations included a left-to-right flip of your character's graphic to imply turning or movement, and a 2nd graphic where your sword was in an up position, then a down position, when you went to attack (the stalves went from a slight bend to a just-more-slightly-bent position).

Yours truly isn't saying that *anyone* plays a game just for a single element such as animations, sound, textures, etc (that would - as you stated - be disingenuous); I'm simply to say that's it's less-important and less glaring to some folks, than others. Case-and-point: if the game came out tomorrow with the place-holder animations, some folks would be greatly bothered by it, while I wouldn't raise an eyebrow, at it.

Either way, our thread here feels a tad counter-productive, since Steven has re-iterated time-and-again that he's always worried about new videos, as some folks are inevidibly looking at it and thinking 'this is the final product' - but it's not!

Dreoh

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

I just wanted to comment really quick that this is a bit disingenuous to say because nobody plays a game solely for the animations. Nor solely for the sound. Nor solely for the textures. But it's always glaringly apparent when one of these or another aspect of a game is below average.

I'm sure it's a bigger deal for people who are into game-dev, as your sig implies. Yours truly has only re-made "Flappy Bird" in Unity, and more recently started to build some 3D worlds in UE5.

Keep in mind, my 1st MMO was the same as Steven's: The original 1991 - 1997 Neverwinter Nights Online, playable only on America Online. Our combat animations included a left-to-right flip of your character's graphic to imply turning or movement, and a 2nd graphic where your sword was in an up position, then a down position, when you went to attack (the stalves went from a slight bend to a just-more-slightly-bent position).

Yours truly isn't saying that *anyone* plays a game just for a single element such as animations, sound, textures, etc (that would - as you stated - be disingenuous); I'm simply to say that's it's less-important and less glaring to some folks, than others. Case-and-point: if the game came out tomorrow with the place-holder animations, some folks would be greatly bothered by it, while I wouldn't raise an eyebrow, at it.

Either way, our thread here feels a tad counter-productive, since Steven has re-iterated time-and-again that he's always worried about new videos, as some folks are inevidibly looking at it and thinking 'this is the final product' - but it's not!

Your argument here is still disingenuous. I didn't mean for it to spark a discussion on it but you do bring up some more points I feel I have to refute.

First, I agree with you that a major portion of players aren't going to have a critical eye about these kinds of things, but that's not what I was necessarily inferring. Players may not play a game for animations or sounds or the like, but they sure as hell recognize when it hits that sweet spot. Have you played a shooter with subpar gun noises? They don't feel satisfying to shoot and thus people aren't as interested. This is anecdotal, but I personally have been addicted to Apex specifically because the guns feel so good to shoot, animation, sound and all. The same principle applies to animations. I guarantee Monster Hunter wouldn't be as popular if the animations in that series were lackluster.

Second, are you really going to compare a 20 year old game's animations to the ones in AoC? I get you were trying to make a point about how back in the day we had shitty animations and we were ok with it and that because you were ok with those shitty animations then you're ok with these shitty animations, but this argument is disingenuous because you're not comparing it with it's own context, the games of it's time. If you were to use this argument correctly you'd be comparing AoC's animations to FF14 or BDO or similar since they're of the same era. Furthermore, you're saying your standards haven't risen with the rising standards of technology in general.

Sure, you might not be bothered by these animations, whether it be because your standards are low, or because you just don't care, but in either of those cases your opinion on the matter then doesn't matter, which is why I brought this up in the first place. We are critical because we do care, and we want the game to be the best it can be.

As for your final point, I will have to highly disagree that this thread is counter-productive. Wrong? Possibly, but only because the devs might already have a concrete plan on where to take the artistic direction regarding animations. However, the fact that they are presenting the animations in these class previews like they are implies that they are somewhat happy with the direction they are taking with them. The countless threads that have sprung forth from these previews shows that many people are worried about the exact thing OP's quote is describing. Many of the abilities and effects we've seen so far just look.. bland or really just bad, and we have no actual concrete confirmation so far whether the devs are happy with what they're showing us or not.

What I personally am scared of is that the devs are all overly excited about the creation of AoC and aren't being as critical themselves about their own work and are exaggerating and adding flair at every step because "This detail would be cool". The problem is if each person is adding flair at every step, then things become a chaotic convoluted mess of flashiness and hyperbole. This is why you need a clear and objective artistic direction. I'm scared of another Xenoblade 2 artistic failure, wherein many of the characters are clearly from different artists and look like they belong in a different game entirely.

This ended up a lot longer than I intended, sorry about that lol

Noaani

The biggest issue we have right now is that in most games at this point in development,we don't see any in game video.

While it's fine to leave comments saying you don't like them as they are right now, and why you don't like them, don't for even a second assume that what we see now will be what we get in the final game.

Same with the abilities themselves. They aren't making abilities right now with the augment system in mind - they are essentially making abilities that include the base ability and an augment.

So again, feel free to say what you don't like, and why. Just make the assumption that what we see now will not be what we get at release.

Frostshot1

As a player of these games and having never looked under the hood, so to speak, How difficult or impossible is it to move from Unreal engine 4 to 5? Just curious, as it sounded like they were wanting to keep the game as up to date with current tech as possible.

As for the graphics, I personally was chalking it up to the early Alpha stage. But I do now see why people are commenting on this. Some of the combat graphics do look out of place.

From only the perspective of a player, and in my opinion, this would be my critique on the video.

Armor skins / reflections are looking great.
Weapon toss - skill graphics look ok. I don't see any issues there.
Bulwark (shield bash) - looks like it needs some refinement. The 2nd strike looks more like an elbow to the face than a shield smash. Angles off or something.
Ultimate defense - animation looks ok, I would like to see a lasting spell effect while the defense is active. Of some sort.
Javelin toss - Yeah the rocks flying off the ground are unnecessary. If anything I would expect the rocks to appear as you drag the body to you, as if kicked up by the movement of the person being pulled instead.
Lacerate - looked ok right up until the sword was left in the guys head. Would look better with 2 swipes instead of the head penetration.
Myrmidon - the graphics look fine, but I question how the jump at the end with the downward over head chop would create damage mitigation. Looks more like a damage boost than defensive move.
Onslaught - Looks pretty cool
Shockwave - I agree with most comments that the spell graphics don't make sense. I would prefer to see a shockwave echoing out from the point of impact to hit the mobs in the target area. Lava?
Resounding Smash - Pretty much the same comment as above. Lava?

And the ending scenes, I would like to see the grass move as you charge through it. But I suspect that this has to do with it still be early Alpha and not tweaked yet.

Anyways that was my constructive criticism from the video. Still think it looks pretty good, and can't wait for a finished product! I hope this will be my new MMO home in the future.

LordAdro

Heated topic, but great points coming from everywhere.

In general, I will give them the benefit of the doubt because they have earned it.

Also, sounds like some of you should apply for jobs with them.

Mushin

This game is nowhere near done, I'd say 3 to 4 years if we're lucky. To compare the graphics to say a game 20 years ago and say yeah it's better than 20 years ago is setting the bar really low. As much crap that japanese and korean mmos get, the one thing they do right is animations and fluid combat. Shouldn't we as the people supporting and funding this expect a game that is going to be release in the future to look better than what we have now currently?

Tyranthraxus

Dreoh wrote: »

are you really going to compare a 20 year old game's animations to the ones in AoC?I get you were trying to make a point about how back in the day we had shitty animations and we were ok with it and that because you were ok with those shitty animations then you're ok with these shitty animations, but this argument is disingenuous because you're not comparing it with it's own context, the games of it's time. If you were to use this argument correctly you'd be comparing AoC's animations to FF14 or BDO or similar since they're of the same era. Furthermore, you're saying your standards haven't risen with the rising standards of technology in general....

....This ended up a lot longer than I intended, sorry about that lol

Hey, it sounds as though you're even more-passionate as I am about this project. To give you an idea? Yours truly has been part of an RP community for 10 years, as of this year. I played our community's first game for 5 1/2 years, then the second game on-and-off for 9 years (with the math, obviously some cross-over, with some time outside the community, before joining). When a community-member informed me about AoC? *That's* what sparked my interest in game-development. AoC is the very reason I bothered to learn the basics of Unity and UE( For anyone interested in what the 2 of us are blithering on about, you can download and use versions of most game-engines *FOR FREE*, if you really want insight into the world of Dreoh and I).

Your passion is not lost on me, brother-man! If anything, you're in a greater position than I am, to gauge the quality of modern-day games than I am; I'm just saying that that graphics and animation aren't everything, to everyone. Some games are the unique interest that they are, simply per the unfortunately rare innovation that their ideas and ground-work offer. I'm sure you feel the same, on this point.

Noaani wrote: »

The biggest issue we have right now is that in most games at this point in development, we don't see any in game video.

Aye - Steven's offered us a rare glimpse into something that yours truly has seen others on the forums and Reddit argue that might otherwise have been left un-known to the world-at-large until a much later stage in development. /ThankYou to the Intrepid staff, to giving us something to look forward, to.

LordAdro wrote: »

....In general, I will give them the benefit of the doubt because they have earned it....

Yours truly has to /agree. In seeing so many MMO's since the 90's, it's rare to see such innovation. The 1st Star Wars MMO? Oh, those of use who experienced it will tell tales of it, for many years to come! Truly a pioneer, in pre-WoW MMO's. The 2nd Star Wars MMO was quite literally a shameless cash-grab, while the 3rd was an un-abashed WoW clone with a Star Wars skin (SWA and SWTOR, in that order).

mushin wrote: »

This game is nowhere near done, I'd say 3 to 4 years if we're lucky....

Don't you jinx us! Throw some sea salt over one shoulder, to dis-spell any such a curse!

Yours truly is hoping for early 2023, at the latest....

Frostshot wrote: »

....How difficult or impossible is it to move from Unreal engine 4 to 5?....

To give you an idea? The updates in the 4.23 build to the 4.25 build cost the Intrepid staff a year of code re-writes; We might have literally gotten a launch date 1 year earlier from the date it will actually launch, as a result. Dreoh would probably be in a better position to explain the discrepancies as to why this is, but it was THAT BIG of a deal. What he says about the animation short-coming of UE4 ring quite true.

There's an endless supply of YouTube videos to explain why, if you have a few hours to spare for technical hoo-ha and further insight. Let's just say it wasn't a popular change, for those already working on projects in 4.23 - such as was the unfortunate case for Aoc.

Merek

The animations are absolutely horrendous, do not allow yourself to think they're passable simply because this is pre-Alpha, they aren't. Allowing developers to get away with undercooking things early on will damage the final product and its longevity. Now, if this was any other topic, we'd see people replying with, "Oh boy, yet another ______ thread..." but they aren't. This makes it quite obvious that even the most devout defenders of the game are worried about this too.

Dreoh

Tyranthraxus wrote: »

Frostshot wrote: »

....How difficult or impossible is it to move from Unreal engine 4 to 5?....

To give you an idea? The updates in the 4.23 build to the 4.25 build cost the Intrepid staff a year of code re-writes; We might have literally gotten a launch date 1 year earlier from the date it will actually launch, as a result. Dreoh would probably be in a better position to explain the discrepancies as to why this is, but it was THAT BIG of a deal. What he says about the animation short-coming of UE4 ring quite true.

There's an endless supply of YouTube videos to explain why, if you have a few hours to spare for technical hoo-ha and further insight. Let's just say it wasn't a popular change, for those already working on projects in 4.23 - such as was the unfortunate case for Aoc.

That's because the engine is essentially the foundation of a game. Normally engine developers are good about updating the engine in ways that it doesn't break API references and such, but iirc Intrepid modified the Unreal Engine to better suit their needs, so they have to also re-modify the engine around the engine updates.

It's like being halfway through building a house and you have to tear up the foundation and fix something before replacing the foundation without tearing down the house you've built so far.

VmanGman

I love what Ashes of Creation is trying to do in general, but I completely agree with this post.

JamesSunderland

I Definitely agree with this post, even tho we know this pre-alpha animations seems a bit clunky and not even near its final iteration, it's important for we to remind not only ourselves but the skill animation team aswell, that the key words for skills animation is fluidity and mobility.

Dygz

Cypher wrote: »

Someone, somewhere in the chain of command, doesn’t understand the “action” part of “action combat” because if they did, we wouldn’t see just about every skill of all 3 of the classes showcased so far be completely locked into a long animation (and probably totally locked in place) when using abilities.
As others have said, some abilities should definitely lock you in place, where it makes sense. But every single ability can not and should not do that.
And by the way I like having spectacle in the combat, but these are supposed to be low level skills for one, and for two every single skill can’t be spectacle just for the sake of it. Why would the tank impale an enemy and just leave the weapon? Pull your sword back out.
And why is there lava/fire effects from stomping the ground? This is a low level tank. If the character picks up a mage subclass then by all means let the abilities have some elements infused.

It's Hybrid Action/Tab Target Combat.
You'd have to look at the BR combat - since it is all "action combat" - to get a feel for how much of the "action combat" is locked into a long animation.
The Tank vid has the Tank standing still to show off the animations - based on previous gameplay, I think at least 50% of those abilities are not movement locked.

Blandmarrow

mushin wrote: »

Blandmarrow wrote: »

mushin wrote: »

Would it make sense for them to hire professionals to do motion capture with martial artists.

I don't think that is the issue, but it would make them less silly and more grounded in reality.

What do you think the issue is? For me when I see the animations most them look unnatural. All the effects stuff can be done later.

I'm not sure, but I if I had to take a guess it would probably be that the intent behind the ability have not been thought through properly. The reason I say this is because either the animations does not convey what the ability does, the tooltip doesn't resemble what it describes or the whole thing is way over the top.

Blandmarrow

Frostshot wrote: »

As a player of these games and having never looked under the hood, so to speak, How difficult or impossible is it to move from Unreal engine 4 to 5? Just curious, as it sounded like they were wanting to keep the game as up to date with current tech as possible.

From what I know, the previous jump in engine version took them around one year to move from. Luckily, Unreal 5 is being designed with the core intent of allowing Unreal 4 projects to be ported, so hopefully it doesn't cause too much delay.

Cypher

Dygz wrote: »

It's Hybrid Action/Tab Target Combat.
You'd have to look at the BR combat - since it is all "action combat" - to get a feel for how much of the "action combat" is locked into a long animation.
The Tank vid has the Tank standing still to show off the animations - based on previous gameplay, I think at least 50% of those abilities are not movement locked.

I know. I played in the BR. Those abilities were extremely placeholder. The skills we see in the showcase videos recently have some pretty long and drawn out animations that lock the character in place until they end.
It’s not very conducive to “action” combat when all of the skills do the opposite of allowing you to “act”. Im supposed to be able to have 75% of my equipped skills be action if I want, yet they all look and behave like tab skills.
Should be able to sling the mage fireball while on the move but if you watch that video there’s this whole rising into the air animation.

Mowaby

Cypher wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

It's Hybrid Action/Tab Target Combat.
You'd have to look at the BR combat - since it is all "action combat" - to get a feel for how much of the "action combat" is locked into a long animation.
The Tank vid has the Tank standing still to show off the animations - based on previous gameplay, I think at least 50% of those abilities are not movement locked.

I know. I played in the BR. Those abilities were extremely placeholder. The skills we see in the showcase videos recently have some pretty long and drawn out animations that lock the character in place until they end.
It’s not very conducive to “action” combat when all of the skills do the opposite of allowing you to “act”. Im supposed to be able to have 75% of my equipped skills be action if I want, yet they all look and behave like tab skills.
Should be able to sling the mage fireball while on the move but if you watch that video there’s this whole rising into the air animation.

I think it is hard to tell if an ability locks the user in place based on the preview videos. Spells like fireball should be a casted spell. I think you should be able to cancel the cast when you move though. There are more spells like the lightning spell looked instant and might be something that you can do on the move.

Cypher

Mowaby wrote: »

I think it is hard to tell if an ability locks the user in place based on the preview videos. Spells like fireball should be a casted spell. I think you should be able to cancel the cast when you move though. There are more spells like the lightning spell looked instant and might be something that you can do on the move.

I’d agree with you except you can watch the skills in action (pun intended) during the video on Intrepid’s YouTube channel, where from Steven’s perspective the devs fought a boss. Basic attacks seem to be about the only thing you can do while not locked in place.

Perhaps I’m spoiled by the combat of games like BDO or Vindictus. Or perhaps, with feedback, we can have a really nice and fluid combat system in this game.

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