Auctioning/trading mounts and the third party greed it produces.

Was in another discussion and had a thought come to the forefront of my mind, I truly don't know if it's been discussed at all since I'm fairly new. If all mounts that are produced through animal husbandry can be sold on the auction house or traded, if that still applies and from what I understand it does still apply, what is stopping third parties from selling these mounts on their third party sites for real money, farming for them, creating bots for their production, etc. What systems will and can be in place to stop this epidemic from infecting this MMO in particular? Because it's an issue for any mount in any MMO that can be traded and auctioned and it can and absolutely has wrecked other MMO economies. Have any of the Devs touched on this yet or released statements?

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Noaani

I mean, this same thing holds true for any item in the game.

Mounts are likely to be far from the most valuable thing players have.

jackalopejane

On playerauctions right now there are several WoW mounts being sold for $6,000 - $1,000, I went and checked, I made all items list via their price, highest first. The closest rare armor piece sells for $700. This follows suit on most third party sites I visited, mounts are extremely important to many MMO consumers. Regardless, even if you looked at it the way you have worded it, that mounts won't be the most valuable things player own, that means they'll be sold cheaper on third party sites, thus bought much more often... so... that is almost worse, IMO. Especially when the production of mounts on here will be primarily through animal husbandry, which means that third party sites would directly be affecting what seems to be one of the most anticipated aspects of this game for a lot of people.

Mowaby

Steven says they have ways to deal with RMT and botting. Hard for us to know till after release if their systems are working.

jackalopejane

Mowaby wrote: »

Steven says they have ways to deal with RMT and botting. Hard for us to know till after release if their systems are working.

Awesome, thank you for answering me because I couldn't find any information on if they had addressed it yet.

Noaani

jackalopejane wrote: »

On playerauctions right now there are several WoW mounts being sold for $6,000 - $1,000

What happens in WoW has literally no bearing at all on what will happen in Ashes.

You are focusing on the issue here as being one of mounts, when the issue you should be talking about is "do Intrepid have plans to deal with people that sell in game assets on third party sites for real money?".

The answer to that question is - yes.

unknownsystemerror

Cosmetics and store purchases are account bound. There is no trading. Anything sold in game could be sold on an outside third party site, but what would be the point? Anyone could have access to it in game. Things like extremely rare egg drops for T3 mounts are timed. And while you could purchase that one of a kind legendary for real world cash, you would always run the risk of it being a false flag operation run by them to root out such problems. The WoW mounts you talk about are there because they allow people to sell codes and mounts that are unobtainable in game by other means. That is not planned here. So when you get that in game whisper from someone wanting the sell you that "Ultra-rare Kickstarter cosmetic Thunderfury, Blessed Sandal of the Cookieseeker, only available on my site!" you will know it is a scam.

jackalopejane

I was aware that cosmetics and store purchases would be account locked, that really wasn't my concern. I was concerned specifically with mounts because they do affect animal husbandry directly and if a player can just list a mount for $5 on a third party site like some common mounts made through professions on WoW that are being sold versus a two day grind or what have you, a lot of people would probably take that gamble, I mainly listed those mounts in particular because I was trying to reinforce to Noaani that while they may not see mounts as the most valuable thing in an MMO, many, many other people do. I mean there's obviously such a large market that people have made careers of selling MMO mounts and items via third party. Regardless, I was curious if that issue in particular, mount trading/selling and third parties, had been addressed. Which although it seems it hasn't specifically, some sort of statement was given on the overall application of preventing third party, which is good enough for now.

Noaani

jackalopejane wrote: »

Regardless, I was curious if that issue in particular, mount trading/selling and third parties, had been addressed. Which although it seems it hasn't specifically, some sort of statement was given on the overall application of preventing third party, which is good enough for now.

Why would they need to talk specifically about plans to stop selling mounts on third party sites, when there are other, more valuable things along with mounts that they will want to stop people selling, and those plans have already been discussed as much as they are ever going to be?

What Intrepid have said is that they have plans in place for preventing all third party selling (which includes mounts) and they are not going to talk any more about it as the more they talk about it, the more people trying to circumvent their plans will know.

It is also worth nothing that the value on mounts in many games is in relation to their looks, not their stats. The visual aspect of mounts in Ashes will mostly be in relation to cosmetics - something that can't be traded.

The value of mounts from animal husbandry is largely going to be in relation to their stats, speed etc.

jackalopejane

Noaani...

Yes, I am focusing on mounts because of the specific mount system in this game, no mounts are account locked and they all can be produced by animal husbandry and all traded and auctioned besides a few top tier, which is pretty unique versus a lot of MMOs I have played. Specifically, what I am worried about, in more depth, is the issue of people selling good breeding traits via third party, specific trait lines, certain stats, for real money but I simplified it with a blank statement of just "mounts on third party sites". If you don't think it will happen because "mounts aren't valuable enough" you're being naïve and especially so if you don't think it will have any effects on animal husbandry itself and it's gold making ability at all. I was also curious on if any members had an idea of how to stop this, such as making mounts account locked, but that was just for fun.

Regardless, you seem to have issue with what I am focusing on in my post, so I can only suggest to leave the thread. Actually, I think I'll just set you to ignore since you seem to not be capable of grasping why people find mounts in MMOs valuable and you've repeated that several times now, despite that many people do, including me, which is exactly why I posted it and it's now becoming tiring. Have a good day.

Noaani

jackalopejane wrote: »

Regardless, you seem to have issue with what I am focusing on in my post, so I can only suggest to leave the thread. Actually, I think I'll just set you to ignore since you seem to not be capable of grasping why people find mounts in MMOs valuable and you've repeated that several times now, despite that many people do, including me, which is exactly why I posted it and it's now becoming tiring. Have a good day.

I think you missed the point I have made in each post.

Intrepid have plans to combat ALL third party selling, not just mounts. This does include mounts, which is your issue, but also includes all other forms of third party selling.

So, since Intrepid have plans to combat all third party selling, including mounts, your specific issue about third party selling of mounts is taken in to consideration under the larger banner of Intrepid having plans to combat all third party selling.

I will also add that I never once said people don't find mounts valuable. What I said is that mounts will not be the most valuable thing people own in Ashes - that is likely to be ocean going ships - likely once specific to combat.

daveywavey

I think Noaani's just trying to work out why you think Mounts would be more valuable than, say, top end Raid Gear, or purchasing votes for a Scientific Node mayoral election, for example.

We don't yet know how rare any items will be, what with drop-rates, RNG, etc, so it's hard to say yet which will be the most valuable in-game items.

Edit: I mean, it may just be that you're planning on going down the Animal Husbandry route yourself, and so that's the angle you're coming from. But it's worth acknowledging that there will also be other valuable items in-game.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

I think Noaani's just trying to work out why you think Mounts would be more valuable than, say, top end Raid Gear, or purchasing votes for a Scientific Node mayoral election, for example.

We don't yet know how rare any items will be, what with drop-rates, RNG, etc, so it's hard to say yet which will be the most valuable in-game items.

Edit: I mean, it may just be that you're planning on going down the Animal Husbandry route yourself, and so that's the angle you're coming from. But it's worth acknowledging that there will also be other valuable items in-game.

Indeed.

Any item type that isn't protected from third party sales has the potential to ruin any games economy. Mounts are not unique in this regard - they just happen to be one that is used often in a popular MMO that has a developer that is notorious for not caring about the game.

McMackMuck

If people are willing to risk burning their accounts for RMT items then it seems like another "Risk vs. Reward" that Steven is fond of.
I love the smell of burning whale fat in the morning!

Hey, there's an idea, when someone on a server gets banned like this, have a dead whale wash up on a random shore for the locals to carve up. No exotic gatherables, just meat, bone and fat.

daveywavey

McMackMuck wrote: »

If people are willing to risk burning their accounts for RMT items then it seems like another "Risk vs. Reward" that Steven is fond of.
I love the smell of burning whale fat in the morning!

Hey, there's an idea, when someone on a server gets banned like this, have a dead whale wash up on a random shore for the locals to carve up. No exotic gatherables, just meat, bone and fat.

And an exact replica of them as an NPC in stocks in the nearest city to their last location, and we can buy stuff to throw at them.

Or maybe this NPC stuck in the stocks is flagged Red and constantly respawns, so we can just kill them over and over and over and ....

maouw

Mounts and Cosmetics: the true endgame of MMOs.

I think the only way to track this kind of activity would be data analysis on player trading - even then, the line is blurry unless you can directly find the corresponding real world transaction too.

Hopefully the testing phases will help them test how sensitive the animal husbandry profession is - though who's to say it'll be different on each server.

jackalopejane

McMackMuck wrote: »

If people are willing to risk burning their accounts for RMT items then it seems like another "Risk vs. Reward" that Steven is fond of.
I love the smell of burning whale fat in the morning!

Hey, there's an idea, when someone on a server gets banned like this, have a dead whale wash up on a random shore for the locals to carve up. No exotic gatherables, just meat, bone and fat.

I am definitely not opposed to this! Lol! A lot of MMOs wouldn't have gone to absolute crap had people not given in to store purchases and the fact that whales can spend five plus times over what normal people pay into games that simply have more control on their spending behavior or simply just less money blows my mind.

jackalopejane

maouw wrote: »

Mounts and Cosmetics: the true endgame of MMOs.

I think the only way to track this kind of activity would be data analysis on player trading - even then, the line is blurry unless you can directly find the corresponding real world transaction too.

Hopefully the testing phases will help them test how sensitive the animal husbandry profession is - though who's to say it'll be different on each server.

I agree and thank you for your input, even despite all the MMOs out there, I've never quite seen a company truthfully win against third party sellers, I mean the only reason it isn't more rampant in some MMOs is just due to how many mounts are account locked, it's a never ending battle. But then again, you then have the issue of people just selling their accounts as a whole, extremely rare mounts included and that issue in and of itself to bypass mounts locked to accounts. It will be interesting to see how this is handled in Ashes specifically.

Warth

not sure why have such an hard-on for mounts.

Would RMT for weapons be okay? Where do you draw the line?

jackalopejane

daveywavey wrote: »

I think Noaani's just trying to work out why you think Mounts would be more valuable than, say, top end Raid Gear, or purchasing votes for a Scientific Node mayoral election, for example.

We don't yet know how rare any items will be, what with drop-rates, RNG, etc, so it's hard to say yet which will be the most valuable in-game items.

Edit: I mean, it may just be that you're planning on going down the Animal Husbandry route yourself, and so that's the angle you're coming from. But it's worth acknowledging that there will also be other valuable items in-game.

I'm not saying everyone will think mounts are the most valuable part of this game and that's fine, MMOs tend to have lots of different types of consumers looking for different things in their game but looking to any MMO's history, there is a very large community who do specifically think mounts are the most valuable part, especially collectors. The difference here with Ashes, is similar to most MMOs, in-game items like gear or weapons can be received through your normal raid/dungeon drops while most of the mounts specifically come from a new and exciting profession form that from my knowledge, only BDO has touched on and that game in particular is also absolutely rampant with third party sell/trade influence in the mount department which is directly affecting people who take part in it in that game, I see the rants and vents on it in their reddit and YouTube community a lot despite not playing that game. I guess because I played ESO and WoW the algorithms are trying to shove it down my throat with suggestions on those sites of MMO content I'd be interested in lol.

Edit: I am coming from a place of being a collector who sees mounts as extremely valuable end game content and yes, also as someone who is directly very interested in animal husbandry because it is a new concept to me and sounds exciting. I don't want to have to compete showing pride in a mount collection with people who can just buy one third party for $5 on a third party site nor do I really want to see animal husbandry get so bogged down by third party sellers that it becomes a less viable way to earn a living in game and thus less people partake in it and worst case scenario, it gets completely removed. I really, really think it needs to just become a passive profession and have mounts account locked but that's just my personal opinion and not everyone may agree. I'm also not a coder or a MMO dev so I can't particularly comment on any systems in place BUT I really hope it's something never seen before because so far, no MMO has been successful in combating this besides account locked mounts and even then, that just made it less frequent but not impossible.

jackalopejane

Warth wrote: »

not sure why have such an hard-on for mounts.

Would RMT for weapons be okay? Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line at all of it. But the difference is with Ashes, weapons are dropped from dungeons and raids while mounts are directly linked to a profession. Botting programs that will run dungeons/raids over and over again to gain gear and weapons are a lot easier to detect due to their behavior from what I understand than people who actually monopolize professions and sell third party but do so physically instead of using bots and I believe that is going to be an issue. Its pretty obvious to me that the botting for this system of mounts would have to be an extensive program as well considering there seems to be so much that will go into producing good and unique mounts versus bots that just run content over and over again, also making botting less likely for animal husbandry in particular but produces more of a demand for people physically doing it be much more likely which makes third party even harder to detect.

Edit: also, again, just because you don't see mounts as being extremely valuable doesn't mean other people don't. Collecting mounts, pets or achievements has always been a crucial part of MMOs. It just has. That doesn't mean I have a "hard on", it's just something that concerns me as someone who is interested in collecting mounts and animal husbandry in particular.

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