The uncertain direction of animations

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned but I came across a comment when watching the recent showcase for the tank skills which kind of hits the head of the nail for me.

The comment was the following:
"I'm really looking forward to Ashes but the animations seem quite disappointing all round to me, the movements seem really inhuman, disjointed or impractical and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder. The main concern for me seems to be down primarily to artistic direction or lack of it. The decisions made and the thinking behind the culmination of these animations worries me. I feel like the animation department needs new leadership and quickly. A cohesive direction needs to be made and enforced.
These animations are all over the place, a unified design philosophy is what is missing. As it stands this seems like inexperienced forced spectacle and there is little more cringe educing."

I don't want to be negative or like some people would call it, "being picky", but I truly share the concerns of this comment.

I just wanted to create a discussion to see what other people think about the subject.

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Comments

WhitneyHagasMatsumoto

That's a radical way of putting it. lol
However, I agree that if the animator team is not that critical about what we are seeing at the moment, they need to change their minds a bit.

Also, I'd like to add that I will of course fully cooperate with your feedback for improvement.

Gannito

Neurath wrote: »

I mentioned the issues in the other thread about tanks. I mention the issues every now and then. I can't mention the issues too often because I don't like to whine lol.

UE4 is a difficult engine for movement. If you don't spend a long time fixing the issue with UE4 movement then everything that is built on top the of unchanged engine will be flawed and lack relational vibes. You can make gorgeous scenery in UE4. The engine isn't the worst engine. The problem comes when the amalgamation process takes place. You can lift an element from a third source but if you lack the flare and the engine to pull it off it just looks weird.

The team are veteran MMO designers for the most part. None of them seem to have worked with UE4 before. The combat should be fluid like Archeage, not static like Lineage 2. Polish can't rectify an inherent flaw unless you start from the very fabric of the movement systems. I do not know if the team have the time or the resources to go back to the base source.

If I was paying a monthly sub then I would expect better. There is no box cost but I've spent more than 8 times the amount of a box cost for packages and cosmetics. The issues are still very blatant and it is fortunate we are in Alpha 1 area. The iterations will be improved but I wonder just how much improvement can be made without resetting the iterations entirely. There is no reason to have lifts/levitation/jumps. The skills should be activated while running or moving. It is the essence of a good combat system.

The animations themselves are long winded and animation locked. I do not mind an animation lock for some skills, there will be no animation cancelling though so every active skill will be a chore. You can animation lock while allowing movement. Animation lock and static abilities do not blend well together.

More lineage, less archeage

Tyranthraxus

Perhaps the question comes down to something as simple as a Dev-hosted poll, asking:

Do you want video-form explanations of and previews of the pre-planned Alpha combat abilities before their Beta-to-Release-Level animation forms, or NOT?

(Just) For Example: Yours truly appreciates even the Alpha-form animations that accompany explanation-previews, and would certainly favor seeing these continue to come out - versus waiting for updates that might be timed for 9 months out, per internal production forecasts.

Would you prefer it be the other way around - in which case we receive NO previews of the forth-coming abilities, until their near-final stage of release?

Blandmarrow

Glad to see more people jumping on the train.

I would really like IS to address this with more detail but since the combat is not close to being done yet there is honestly not much to talk about.

I just hope for the love of god that they don't go with this direction of animations in general, placeholder or not it shouldn't feel so out of touch and incompatible with what we believe the combat will be.

Songcaller

Gannito wrote: »

More lineage, less archeage

Lineage was horrendous for combat. Melee were static, some classes spammed a single move. Buffs were static casts and movement was click based and not free flow. You can ask for such parameters but such parameters will kill Ashes of Creation.

Cypher

Gannito wrote: »

More lineage, less archeage

More “BDO”, less “every other mmo combat”

Gizban

daveywavey wrote: »

Blandmarrow wrote: »

I feel like the animation department needs new leadership and quickly.

Well, if a random comment from some nobody doesn't make a company sack its staff and hire new ones, I don't know what will.

Maybe a childish and sour comment from someone important like you? Give it a shot, dead-eye.

Ardymus

When i try to play a new MMO one of the biggest problems that i find that disconnects me from immersion is how the character runs and strafes mounted or un mounted. I find it really hard to un notice when the character doesn't have fluid movement on turns or strafes and when I see it kinda running on the spot on the ground while moving or turning. maybe it's just me i dunno.

maouw

Ardymus wrote: »

When i try to play a new MMO one of the biggest problems that i find that disconnects me from immersion is how the character runs and strafes mounted or un mounted. I find it really hard to un notice when the character doesn't have fluid movement on turns or strafes and when I see it kinda running on the spot on the ground while moving or turning. maybe it's just me i dunno.

I think this is something that falls into "polish" and doesn't need to be perfect in a1.
That said, I would like to see that characters can turn their heads in the same direction that players turn the camera. It's a pretty big part of body language - where the head is pointing vs where the chest is pointing.

Noaani

Blandmarrow wrote: »

I would really like IS to address this with more detail but since the combat is not close to being done yet there is honestly not much to talk about.

What is it you would expect them to say other than "hey guys, we're still in alpha"?

I mean, you can't honestly expect them to be finished yet. As I have said, they NEED the animation artists to be on staff for the last push before release, which means they NEED to have work for them for the next 2 - 3 years until that crunch, which means the animations as we see them today still have 2 - 3 years worth of work to be done on them.

So again, honestly, what do you expect Intrepid to say that many of us here haven't already said?

Blandmarrow

Noaani wrote: »

Blandmarrow wrote: »

I would really like IS to address this with more detail but since the combat is not close to being done yet there is honestly not much to talk about.

What is it you would expect them to say other than "hey guys, we're still in alpha"?

I mean, you can't honestly expect them to be finished yet. As I have said, they NEED the animation artists to be on staff for the last push before release, which means they NEED to have work for them for the next 2 - 3 years until that crunch, which means the animations as we see them today still have 2 - 3 years worth of work to be done on them.

So again, honestly, what do you expect Intrepid to say that many of us here haven't already said?

I never expected things to be finished...

But if these animations are the style they are going for, the animations are goofy and over the top which is a bad direction in my eyes.

What I want them to clarify is the style of animation they are going for. Is this over the top and cartoonish animation the style they want or are they just experimenting with different styles to see what fits best?

I think that's what most people have issues with, not that it's not "polished" or "unfinished" because no sane person expects it to be.

WhitneyHagasMatsumoto

My conclusion, based on a series of discussions, is that ......

My personal feeling remains that I would like to know what their basic philosophy is about animation.

However, in the end it's only a desire, so a more constructive approach would be to provide more detailed feedback in the Alpha 2 stage.

That's what I mean.

I hope that when alpha 2 is released, there will be some sort of format implemented to collect feedback for each game system and for the animations.

arsnn

Noaani wrote: »

Blandmarrow wrote: »

I would really like IS to address this with more detail but since the combat is not close to being done yet there is honestly not much to talk about.

What is it you would expect them to say other than "hey guys, we're still in alpha"?

I mean, you can't honestly expect them to be finished yet. As I have said, they NEED the animation artists to be on staff for the last push before release, which means they NEED to have work for them for the next 2 - 3 years until that crunch, which means the animations as we see them today still have 2 - 3 years worth of work to be done on them.

So again, honestly, what do you expect Intrepid to say that many of us here haven't already said?

For some reason some people like you get offended on the behalf of intrepid, on a topic that does not even exist.
None says that this is a finished product. None doubts that the animation will improve through the years.
I dont get it where you read this between the lines.
Steven stressed that constructive criticism is valued and that´s reason why they decided to go for an open development process. So let´s engage with that opportunity.

Secondly it is not common for game companies to build up art assets with the intent to dump them entirely.
It doesn´t matter how often Steven says combat is an iterative process, the current itteration is a result of them having not a producer for a long time and completely neglecting the combat design process for 4 years.
The animations we currently see are not an iteration, they are gonna be dumped. They serve no base to build from.
The reason why i think that´s the case, is because they are mostly static animations.
Intrepid has yet not used any modern system on how to approach combat animations.
No splited body with independent uppper body casting, no dynamic range adjustments , no momentum, no coherent direction,hardly any hit feedback.

I mean that´s completely okay.
But then criticism is appropriate, as we don´t now their future direction on those things.
Tht Criticism towards horrendous quick time event they had in the pax arena test also worked.
So you are essentially saying the community should not have voiced their oppinion on that abomination of combat system.

Also im positive that the direction is gonna shift when they fill their senior combat designer position that they currently listed.

Noaani

arsnn wrote: »

Secondly it is not common for game companies to build up art assets with the intent to dump them entirely.

You're right, but you are forgetting that it is fairly usual for developers to use stock animations early on in development in order to make sure systems and other assets are working as intended.

To your more broad point in this post, I am not "offended on behalf of Intrepid". Rather, when I see people pointing out that the animations are not up to par yet, I am simply adding to the conversation the actual reasons as to why that is the case at this point in development - so that people actually understand that this is normal. While some of the people that post here may already understand this (many, many posters here do not), one needs to remember that you do not need an account to read these forums.

It is the people coming along that only read the forums that are the reason I will always point out the blatantly obvious on topics like this, and it is the people that complain about that blatantly obvious fact being pointed out that are unreasonably offended.

To your last paragraph, the senior combat designer works with animators, they don't make the animations. The technical animator position they are looking to fill is the one that has the actual impact on animations.

also known as Benji

daveywavey wrote: »

My favourite part was this:

Blandmarrow wrote: »

Before I start, I am aware that the animations are either placeholder or not tuned
...
and it dose not seem to be an issue with them being unfinished or placeholder.

They have a good team of experienced staff. Let them do what they do, and if it turns out you don't like it, you'll always have the option of not playing.

I don’t like this line of reasoning, and I don’t think it’s okay. Diminishing someone’s feedback by telling them they don’t have to play the game isn’t helpful. They want to play the game and for it to be a success, hence the feedback. I don’t mind disagreements, but the sentiment of your comment just poisons the well. Not good for the community.

also known as Benji

I agree with OP that some of the animations look off/sub-par, and I can see how someone would think that the animations lack direction.

Everything else I’ve seen from an art standpoint has been fantastic, so I’m not terribly concerned about the first/second pass at animations. That said, I’m not a game dev/animations artist so I really don’t know how difficult it is to clean up animations at a later date. If I were running the business, I would ask my team to get placeholder animations done and then have focused iterative improvement from there.

As far as I know the animation department at Intrepid is a one-man army right now, so I’m not surprised to see work that feels clunkier/less polished.

I would love to see animations that are more fluid and immersive. I don’t like long animation locks/forced immobility during casts. Hopefully we’ll be able to cancel those somehow. I can easily see this game being one I go to in order to escape the worries of real life for a short time, so the more immersive, the better.

I’m extremely excited for this game and have full faith in Steven’s leadership and Intrepid’s ability to deliver on their promises. Even if it takes longer than we would want!

Noaani

also known as Benji wrote: »

If I were running the business, I would ask my team to get placeholder animations done and then have focused iterative improvement from there.

As far as I know the animation department at Intrepid is a one-man army right now, so I’m not surprised to see work that feels clunkier/less polished.

These two points (among other points) are why I have spent several threads now arguing the specific point that leaving feedback is fine, just do so under the assumption that nothing we have seen in regards to animation will make it to the game - and that this is normal for this early in the games development.

For some reason, people don't seem to like being told that. Or more to the point, people don't read properly, assume what it is that is being said, and then begin an argument based on their assumption.

Merek

Noaani wrote: »

also known as Benji wrote: »

If I were running the business, I would ask my team to get placeholder animations done and then have focused iterative improvement from there.

As far as I know the animation department at Intrepid is a one-man army right now, so I’m not surprised to see work that feels clunkier/less polished.

These two points (among other points) are why I have spent several threads now arguing the specific point that leaving feedback is fine, just do so under the assumption that nothing we have seen in regards to animation will make it to the game - and that this is normal for this early in the games development.

For some reason, people don't seem to like being told that. Or more to the point, people don't read properly, assume what it is that is being said, and then begin an argument based on their assumption.

I do find the defensive attitude of some here alarming, criticizing choices made by Intrepid doesn't mean anyone here wants the game to fail. If we're honest, even the harshest critiques will play the game. (If it's good.) I think it's a bit of a joke for Intrepid to willingly post videos showcasing these animations though, if they're merely placeholder, why post them? It's really odd, I... I can't help but laugh at it.

Now, I'm not totally sure it's what you say that people dislike, I think it's your dismissive attitude. They possibly attribute it to a case of choice-supportive bias, which I can understand. This is most likely the reason they get annoyed with you.

Noaani

Merek wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

also known as Benji wrote: »

If I were running the business, I would ask my team to get placeholder animations done and then have focused iterative improvement from there.

As far as I know the animation department at Intrepid is a one-man army right now, so I’m not surprised to see work that feels clunkier/less polished.

These two points (among other points) are why I have spent several threads now arguing the specific point that leaving feedback is fine, just do so under the assumption that nothing we have seen in regards to animation will make it to the game - and that this is normal for this early in the games development.

For some reason, people don't seem to like being told that. Or more to the point, people don't read properly, assume what it is that is being said, and then begin an argument based on their assumption.

I do find the defensive attitude of some here alarming, criticizing choices made by Intrepid doesn't mean anyone here wants the game to fail. If we're honest, even the harshest critiques will play the game. (If it's good.) I think it's a bit of a joke for Intrepid to willingly post videos showcasing these animations though, if they're merely placeholder, why post them? It's really odd, I... I can't help but laugh at it.

Now, I'm not totally sure it's what you say that people dislike, I think it's your dismissive attitude. They possibly attribute it to a case of choice-supportive bias, which I can understand. This is most likely the reason they get annoyed with you.

I dont care if people get annoyed with me.

I care that people will instigate an argument without reading the posts they are arguing against.

As to why Intrepid posted the videos, there are several reasons. People want to see the classes, there is much, MUCH more on display than just animations, the game is in alpha and they expect people to know it is all a work in progress.

I mean, early videos of the game had literally everything as placeholders. The UI we have is still a placeholder. The abilities we are seeing are likely still place holders.

If Intrepid wait until things aren't placeholders before showing the game, they wont be showing anything until mid beta.

dewan58

The animations looking stiff or janky is to be expected at this phase in the game.
My main concern, as others have pointed out, is some of the over the top animations. As a tank class, I kind of expect some of the animations to have more weight behind them. You are suppose to be some sort of heavy armor class but leaping in the air doesn't really make sense.

Now if these were animations for maybe a light armor, elven class it would make more sense but not a dwarf. However, I think they mentioned there is no plans to have race specific animations at this time. I'm glad to see they changed up the Fireball cast animation.

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