Misc. Game Mechanics

This post covers ideas that are just to simple to warrant their own post.

Having the ability to click on the map and see what is going on in that region if friendly players are there like League of Legends would be pretty useful in 250 vs 250 brackets

As developers I see you guys are putting a lot of effort into making cool looking weapons be nice if we could look at them close up and have ability to rotate them same thing with armour sets.

There is an old spell from Dungeouns and dragons called Chromatic Orb with 12 different effects or could be a weapon like a spear with sweep dazzle and impale abilities or just a mage spell like fireball with different effects. Think if you push lets say But lets say Chromatic Orb had only 7 effects then pushing that button could bring up the effect choices and press whichever one you want then automatically goes back to previous page. Aslo if you just push the Chromatic Orb button ounce then effect in box one is selected. Be pretty cool if we could arrange the order of the spell effects . Works very similar to page up and page down. And similar to pressing modifiers like shift alt and control and similar to stances. But what this does is introduces a two button sequence for abilities kind like in Tekken. Increases the number of abilities you can use without actaully increasing the number of keybindings that you need.

Be cool if pets could do stuff like open doors and pull levers or capture a flag. Well maybe not capture flag. Things is I play huntesr and well realized that pets can be to powerful in pvp, but there are a lot of other things that pets could do like have dnager sense track monsters. Plus be pretty cool if we could see a picture in a cloud of what they might be thinking. Like food they want to eat and player that just killed their master and wants revenge, or some toy to play with. Since rangers would be metally linked to pet then this would make sense. Just things that would make them more like a life long campanion than just a pet that does x damage.

That is all for now gents good day to you.

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Comments

ataulfos

@consultant, in my opinion It is not a good idea that there are so many spells for the classes since the basic attack in combo that ashes of creation are trying to implement would be obsolete since there would always be some skill to use and it would leave aside all the styles of play that could be used depending on the style of the player and everyone would simply use the skills of a class, ashes of creation wants to give identity to the classes that are created and formed according to the decisions of the players such as using certain skills in a build to play a certain way, use many skills in a big bar eliminates that idea, although having a large number of keybinds will depend on the use and configuration that each one depends on depending on the tools you provide us ashes

Ishka

@ataulfos (If I understood your view correctly) I think that having a lot of spells is not a problem for the combo system as long as those have long enough CDs. Regarding AOC's combo system itself, it needs to be usable in-between skills to optimize dps and maybe proc some effects that synergise with the skills the class uses.

What makes a class's kit meaningful is its number of skills and CDs and most importantly the tools it gives, in other words the game needs to have a minimum of mechanics to play around like different types of CC, stances, I-frame, movespeed etc...
Having a "normal" amount of spells with no CDs makes half of the gameplay braindead. The number of "tools" you end up having permits the player to shine when he master its class, this is where "skill management" as I like to call it comes. Basically when every skill used has an impact, and you need to foresee the consequences of each use, in short or long term for the fights. There will be little impact in the long term since the class got only a little number of skills, they needs to have shorter CDs. In the end all the classes would be almost the same in terms of efficiency if there are few skills to use.
In the end it would limit the "uniqueness" of the class and how the player plays around it. It's like giving a baby piano, then comparing it with a good ol' organ from some cathedrals. Which one will give the player more identity ? To me; at least I'll prefer having a shitload of things to manage my fights instead of 10 of the same skills and doing the same skill rotation over and over because that's all I can do.

Back to the combo system, the only way I see it used properly would be that you can use those combos right after a skill and giving specific effects as it they interact between themselves. To be more precise, imagine that spamming all your skills one after another will burst the target, then being in CD you just use your combo waiting to get back your skills.
What would make the combo system shine is that the skill's animation "blend" with the combo system animation (attacks). Combining the two would of course reduces the damage in a short time period, but in the long run as the player weave between skills and combo, it permits to keep most of the CDs up and still be efficient dpswise theoretically forever. If they make the player waiting for the skill animation to finish to use the combo attacks, it would limit its interest a lot. You also need to remove "global cooldown" if it's what it is called.
I don't ask for the skills to fuse and give the ability to use 10 in 1s, but to make this combination of combo system and skills feeling natural.

What d'you guys think ? (does it need another thread tho ? °°)

Wandering Mist

@Ishka I'm sure we've discussed this before but just because you are given lots of buttons to press doesn't mean the gameplay is interesting. What you actually want out of any combat system is depth, which is the number of choices you can make with the same ruleset. The more choices players can make, the greater the depth. You also create depth and choice by limiting what the player can do (within moderation of course).

Fighting games demonstrate this very well. In Street Fight 5 you have 6 buttons for attacking - Light punch, medium punch, heavy punch, light kick, medium kick and heavy kick. That is it. Within those 6 buttons, combined with the D-pad you have lots of different moves to choose from, but can only activate one ability at a time. On top of this you can combo multiple different moves together to produce a particular effect, so you can choose to either do single attacks that are easier to land but do less damage, or risk going for a combo that is a little more predictable as well as leaving you open to attack yourself.

Finally you have blocking, which is done using the D-pad buttons. However, the restriction is that you can't block and attack at the same time, so you have to choose whether to attack or defend at any given moment. Again, this restriction forces players to choose and therefore increases the depth of the combat.

Going back to Ashes, the global cooldown is important because it not only fulfils the restriction criteria for forcing choice on players but it evens up the playing field for people who are high ping to work with. If there is no global cooldown, gameplay pretty much revolves around who can spam their buttons the fastest, especially in a PvE environment.

@ataulfos The weapon combo (aka auto attack - yes I know they say there isn't an auto attack but it's essentially what it is) should always be worth using because it generates focus which is used for the more powerful abilities. Given what we know about the combat so far, gameplay will involve weaving in as many auto attacks as you can in between your other spells to build up focus as quickly as possible.

Ishka

@Wandering Mist I wouldn't dare to say my view is what mmos should be, but at least this is what I think it is best for them, so I'll try to further explain my thoughts in case of a misunderstanding.

Yeah I agree with the street fighter reference about depth and little buttons to use. But the way the game is played is fundamentally different from an mmo, those games are about reflexes and "input knowledges" and a lot of anticipation. But they got limited interaction, you grab, you block, you hit... There is maybe more but I am far from being an expert. Those are the "tools'' they have paired with a huge amount of mindgame ofc. The depth comes from these limitations being pushed away with mind games at high level.

The way I see "depth" in a lot of skills is meaningful cooldowns and "tools" they give, that is where having a lot of buttons to press becomes interesting. We all agree that having a lot of skills always up to be used is a failure, but that is not the vision I promote.
I want the class kit to give opportunities and weaknesses. Each action (skills) you will do will grant something good and potentially something bad. By having variations of CDs duration you will have to manage things not only in short terms and quick-witted actions like street fighters would, but on the long terms to be efficient in the many different situations that could and will come in the next minutes and more. Having a little pool of skills will obviously give them short cooldowns, or else the game will be 3/4 of the time about using the combo system. This makes the class efficiency linear in time. You don't have weak moments, nor huge power spike to play around. Some classes have areas they are strong in and weak ones too, which comes from their skills. The expectations are important when you fight an opponent, not only you're managing your skills, but the enemy's skills too.

This is where having different tools in a class kit becomes interesting, it permits you to face different situations. Only in a specific type of pvp format you could potentially plan more or less the uses of your skills to achieve strong and linear efficiency. What I thrive for is to make sort of gamble, what if I don't all in now at the cost of HPs, time to be better prepared for the next target. Or should I decide to use all my resources to obliterate my opponent now at the cost of a very hard fight right after this. Should I use my dispel to remove roots or not ? There is so many possibilities, I guess it's enough to illustrate my points.

Continuing on my ideas, those different tools come from the game design itself, having a lot of ways to interact in pvp will naturally give tools to the player to play around. Those are skills, an MMO is tridimensional, you need movement, I am not promoting standing like a tree and using my rotations, I am talking about the many ways you can build not only your characters but the way you fight, and in the end, the way you fight is how you manage the tools you have.
A specialised build on moveset, a build that is very static but strong in defenses, possibilities are endless as long as there is variation to work with. You are indeed aware of the need for depth into the gameplay, but there is a different type of depth you can give. Limiting the number of skills will make exotic builds unable to come into existence. And the way a player like me or you can make its own gameplay will disappear. Since there will only be 3 variations at best you can play a class. Hopefully AOC will give us a lot of different classes to play with.

Basically it still have all of what you said, but the potential for the player to "imprint" itself in the process of playing a class.

Edit : Forgot about the global cooldown, it's just about a matter of fluidity for animation and dps, we indeed need some sort of restriction, but in my eyes global cooldown is too much. The restriction being attack speed (it's an idea).
In aion there is no global cooldown, so you can ideed spamm quickly your skills, but in the end it would reduce dps in the long term, since you need to weave your skills with your auto-attacks to grants more chances of effects procs and damages, and properly using weaving (auto-attacking between skills) in aion can be hard, since too much weaving would lower the dps, just as much as too little weaving too. We also need to take into account the skill animation speed, so auto-attacking will reduces dps just because a skill is slower to use. Also how skills's animation merge together, it's better to use in chain skills that have a similar animation.

The way I see global cooldown, it's like you have a huge ass skill, with a utlra long animation, what if the skill can connect with another skill in term of animation, like if I do a huge cleave, why can't I use let's say a Garen's spin in its continuity. The best way to prevent people from abusing a no-global-cooldown is make its use unproductive, make it a mechanic so that good users will be rewarded.

Wandering Mist

@Ishka

Yeah I agree with the street fighter reference about depth and little buttons to use. But the way the game is played is fundamentally different from an mmo, those games are about reflexes and "input knowledges" and a lot of anticipation. But they got limited interaction, you grab, you block, you hit... There is maybe more but I am far from being an expert. Those are the "tools'' they have paired with a huge amount of mindgame ofc. The depth comes from these limitations being pushed away with mind games at high level.

Actually it's quite the opposite. The animations in a game like Street Fighter are so fast that a human physically cannot react to what is happening. High level gameplay is all about strategy and mind-games rather than reflexes and fast inputs.

The way I see "depth" in a lot of skills is meaningful cooldowns and "tools" they give, that is where having a lot of buttons to press becomes interesting. We all agree that having a lot of skills always up to be used is a failure, but that is not the vision I promote.
I want the class kit to give opportunities and weaknesses. Each action (skills) you will do will grant something good and potentially something bad. By having variations of CDs duration you will have to manage things not only in short terms and quick-witted actions like street fighters would, but on the long terms to be efficient in the many different situations that could and will come in the next minutes and more. Having a little pool of skills will obviously give them short cooldowns, or else the game will be 3/4 of the time about using the combo system. This makes the class efficiency linear in time. You don't have weak moments, nor huge power spike to play around. Some classes have areas they are strong in and weak ones too, which comes from their skills. The expectations are important when you fight an opponent, not only you're managing your skills, but the enemy's skills too.

I agree with you that abilities should have different cooldowns but obviously it all depends on just how long the cooldowns are. My point still stands though that in my opinion there are more effective ways of providing depth to a combat system than just adding more skills. The Elementalist in GW2 is a good example of this, having the most skills of any class in the game (21 weapon skills + 3 utility skills and 1 elite skill). Guess what, because of the way the skills are designed, you would never see an elementalist using more than half of those available weapon skills, because it's just not worth it.

One thing to keep in mind here is the illusion of choice. The more gameplay options you put into a game the harder it is to balance and the fewer options become viable. For an example of this look no further than Pokemon. Hundreds of different Pokemon, able to learn dozens of different moves and equipping tons of different items giving you thousands of ways to build your team.....

....and only a tiny fraction of those are thousands of options are actually viable. Despite all those options to choose from, if you look at the competitive PvP scene you will always see the same handful of pokemon using the same move sets and the same items.

LoL has a similar problem when it comes to balance, to the point where the cyclical balance formula that the game is built on falls apart. Even if you counter-pick your opponents it often doesn't matter because some champions are so unbalanced that they can just flat out beat their supposed "counters".

Ishka

Fair enough, my choices of word seems to be bad regarding street fighter xD but what my thoughts on the reflexes stand still, while it is not something that we can count on to be used often. It's still possible, I saw dudes reacting instantly to very quick animation & other things. It's obvious it can't work everytime, but it can legitimately clutch some fights. I saw a lot of competition won over such little things as one move, but then again, since I am not into those games, my vision might be "unrealistic".

About your balancing paragraph and "illusion of choice", I totally agree the more there are, the harder it becomes to make things balanced and viable.
I will just add this : everything needs balance, especially the number of usable skills and their efficiency. The problem about using only half of class's skill is not the number of skills around their cd's and utilities. It's how they are designed that will make them impactful or useless.
Obviously, no one will use useless skills. What is even the point of creating useless skills in the 1st place. Depending on how the game is made, you can indeed have a gameplay with depth with little skills, but because there are many layers of additionnals mechanics around the little numbers of skills you have. In an MMO what matters the most are skills and how they are used. If AOC will have little mechanics and few ways to interact, it'll be useless to have a lot of skills. In the end, it all comes down on how the game is made.

Wandering Mist wrote: »

@Ishka I'm sure we've discussed this before

I don't remember if I participated in it or, was it a thread you were in with other ppl ? °°

I feel like I am polluting this thread since it's not the subject, are you okay to continue with PMs or discord later on; since it was already discussed xD ? I am quite interested in your view, and the forum limits me quite a lot, I would like to show you videos & other things to base my arguments on.

consultant

Well gents my last post is not about number of abilities or class abilities. But number of boxes to have key bindings. lets say you have 14 abilities well there are a lot of other keybindings Mount dismount could be one button, mount animations, walk verses run, then if they have things like target arena player 1 2 3 4 5 adn of course 1 2 3 4 5 freindly that is like ten. Plus there are things like potions say you have three potions mana healing and stat potion. Plus there are things like food drink cosmetic items like flute. And there is going to a communication system ( pingning and icons I guess). Plus a lot more that did not even mention. IF you have most of them keybinded instead of clicking it makes it more of a you are actually in the game feel.

Normaly page up and page down increases number of bindings by one bar per page in my case it is two bars per page. Do not see how that is related to most of what is posted really did not read it all so just guessing.

Did not read most of your posts cause really it is off topic. Really do not see what there is to post about just really minor things that make game convenient. Maybe you guys just read the first sentence and not read the reast.

Noaani

Wandering Mist wrote: »

I agree with you that abilities should have different cooldowns but obviously it all depends on just how long the cooldowns are. My point still stands though that in my opinion there are more effective ways of providing depth to a combat system than just adding more skills. The Elementalist in GW2 is a good example of this, having the most skills of any class in the game (21 weapon skills + 3 utility skills and 1 elite skill). Guess what, because of the way the skills are designed, you would never see an elementalist using more than half of those available weapon skills, because it's just not worth it.

But now you are comparing a good version of one system with a bad version of another system. Any time you do that, the system that you use a good version of will obviously come out on top.

I've said it before, but EQ2 (wizard, specifically) is a fantastic example of a class with a lot of spells, with a lot of cooldown variation, but where every spell is used.

GW2 as a game (and thus the classes within it) suffers from the fact that the game designers designed the games UI and then tried to fit the classes in to that UI. Take the elementalist, but give the player immediate access to all weapon skills without needing to switch things out, and players would start using far more of the abilities the class has.

---

With the class system this game has, my hope is that each primary archetype has it's own distinct playstyle in this regard.

To me, a combo based combat system seems like it would be a really good fit for a fighter or rogue class, but a horrible fit for a mage.

On the other hand, a combat system with a lot of slow(ish) casting spells with long cooldowns seems like a great way to play a mage, but a just a bad time for a melee class.

To me, the following would be the idea...

Fighter - fast paced combo based combat - not reflex based.
Rogue - reflex and reaction based combat with heavy stealth component.
Tank - methodical, rhythmic combat, but with reflex based battlefield control.
Mage - slow, methodical, purposeful spell usage.
Ranger - alternates between combo based melee combat and slow, methodical, purposeful ranged combat.

I am unsure how I'd go for the remaining three classes, though I could see making their secondary class more of a deciding factor in how the class plays a somewhat interesting thing to do.

With just the above five though, I think you have most of your bases covered.

One this though, imo, if Ashes tries to go for a one system fits all for it's class/combat system (even if minor changes like in GW2 happen), then the game may as well just not exist.

consultant

Would like to see 1v2 Brackets and 2v3 brackets. Really good way for pvpers to hone in their skills. Playing under extreme pressure.

Ventharien

consultant wrote: »

Would like to see 1v2 Brackets and 2v3 brackets. Really good way for pvpers to hone in their skills. Playing under extreme pressure.

Maybe a in node Arena?

Noaani

Ventharien wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

Would like to see 1v2 Brackets and 2v3 brackets. Really good way for pvpers to hone in their skills. Playing under extreme pressure.

Maybe a in node Arena?

I don't see Intrepid wanting to encourage arena based PvP any more than is necessary tbh.

The idea of PvP in Ashes is that you fight over actual resources in the world, not over pretend points of interest or some loreless/pointless deathmatch.

I would have to assume that the use of arena PvP in Ashes will only ever be where it is needed, rather than as a means to try and fill every potential or perceived gaming niche.

unknownsystemerror

Unlike many other things we have actually seen early arena maps and ideas in engine. It will just be another option promoted just like any of the other pvp options. While they won't have 1v1 because of the whole RPS issue, they have talked multiple times about arena and how it will function. Much more so than many other "core" systems with the exception of caravans imo.

Ravudha

Ventharien wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

Would like to see 1v2 Brackets and 2v3 brackets. Really good way for pvpers to hone in their skills. Playing under extreme pressure.

Maybe a in node Arena?

Or just do open world caravan PvP - chances are it'll be uneven sides

Noaani

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

Unlike many other things we have actually seen early arena maps and ideas in engine. It will just be another option promoted just like any of the other pvp options. While they won't have 1v1 because of the whole RPS issue, they have talked multiple times about arena and how it will function. Much more so than many other "core" systems with the exception of caravans imo.

I'm not saying arenas won't be in the game - they clearly will. I'm saying the focus in terms of PvP will be open world rather than instanced/arena.

That said, I was under the impression that 1v1 arenas were confirmed.

Obviously older comments shouldn't necessarily still be considered relevant, but I was unaware that had changed.

consultant

Actually other option is to pick inexperience player to play with you but that is not much fun for them cause mostly likely be killed more often. Plus most likely have better things to do.
Actaully pretty Standard option WoW called this Wargames had all kinds of options not to many people are even aware of that opton. No reason to leave option out since it so simple and inexpenisive to implement. Plus lack of options add up over all and make MMO look bad if there is enough of them.

Think Option is in order since there is going to be PvP metropolis.

Why would they not encourage Arenas. They do not talk about it much cause there is not much to talk about.
It is not a big talking point like caravans and sieges . Plus sieges do not happen all the time ounce a month I beieive if the want to. Plus caravans are open world as that means they have to be found and do present a logistical challenge. Fight might be all over by time you get there.

consultant

Think there should be an item level requirement for PvP maps at max level so people go in decent gear. Gear matters a lot in pvp. Seen people go pvp in role playing gear with not gear on them with any stats. Plus it really hurts the chances of winning if some people are under geared.

consultant

There is a show called the Very Vera Show so Vera is like an female name could use variance of that name like Verencia or Vernasia or Verascotia or some other variation.

Warth

consultant wrote: »

If voice chat and chat channel is good enought for 250 people possible 500 hundred in 500 vs 500 bracket then well it could work. Said somethin about raid leaders and commanders well IF they are organized it works out.

Just getting 250 to 500 people in voice chat is a challenge. Been part of much smaller group with voice chat and still have communications problems.

But here are some possible problems

There are people that just like to talk all the time

People that like to point out everything that is negative about other players

Guess you could have commanders mute people but that power could be abused.

Some people paly music while playing games so youmight hear that too and hwo are you going to figure out who that is.

In an ideal group were people listen and mostly only talk to give tactical info then yes it would work.

But yes IF voice chat and chat channel work for 250 people most of the time not tryintgto focus on exceptions Then something like this would not be needed. Like if you only got bad groups ounce in a while.

Last person I was in voice chat with like to sing while playing so.......

You sound like someone who never properly participated in an organized large scale battle ever.
People don't sing, people don't joke around. People follow the orders of a handful of people or they will be muted/not participating the next time.
With an increasing amount of players, each member talks less individually except the group and raid leaders.
There is more than sufficient footage online to check it yourself, not in a single one you'll find idiots singing or fooling around on voice coms during the battle.
This holds true for groups as low as 25 in mythic raid boss attempts in WoW to thousands vs. thousands occupying a single teamspeak during a battle in Eve.

Here you have some examples, as you seem to have a hard time imagining it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dflGn2nsgGM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh2Wd5wFZCM

https://youtu.be/Vvtp8qaUdNk?t=386

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nalljAJPe8U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABpv3OZxeFs

Enigmatic Sage

if players are using the in game voice chat to play music, then you'd have a lot of streamers getting trolled with DMCA and unable to stream the game.
You could possibly have people screaming and shouting obscene things
Perhaps a group/party could be more possible with as someone mentioned the option for the group/party leader to mute. Allowing for some proximity chat without all the chatter over lapping.
This would give the option for people to not have to use additional software/apps for communication.
Additionally, probably more viable on a more serious role play server for those who want the immersion experience.
Needs to be an effective range and decibel cap on output.

consultant

Warth wrote: »

consultant wrote: »

If voice chat and chat channel is good enought for 250 people possible 500 hundred in 500 vs 500 bracket then well it could work. Said somethin about raid leaders and commanders well IF they are organized it works out.

Just getting 250 to 500 people in voice chat is a challenge. Been part of much smaller group with voice chat and still have communications problems.

But here are some possible problems

There are people that just like to talk all the time

People that like to point out everything that is negative about other players

Guess you could have commanders mute people but that power could be abused.

Some people paly music while playing games so youmight hear that too and hwo are you going to figure out who that is.

In an ideal group were people listen and mostly only talk to give tactical info then yes it would work.

But yes IF voice chat and chat channel work for 250 people most of the time not tryintgto focus on exceptions Then something like this would not be needed. Like if you only got bad groups ounce in a while.

Last person I was in voice chat with like to sing while playing so.......

You sound like someone who never properly participated in an organized large scale battle ever.
People don't sing, people don't joke around. People follow the orders of a handful of people or they will be muted/not participating the next time.
With an increasing amount of players, each member talks less individually except the group and raid leaders.
There is more than sufficient footage online to check it yourself, not in a single one you'll find idiots singing or fooling around on voice coms during the battle.
This holds true for groups as low as 25 in mythic raid boss attempts in WoW to thousands vs. thousands occupying a single teamspeak during a battle in Eve.

Here you have some examples, as you seem to have a hard time imagining it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dflGn2nsgGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh2Wd5wFZCM
https://youtu.be/Vvtp8qaUdNk?t=386
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nalljAJPe8U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABpv3OZxeFs

Ever heard of people playing drunk or high or young peprson But just to be perfectly clear you are saying that

Voice chat is a viable solution for 250vs 250 battle and 500 vs 500 battle in voice chat. Actually my experience is more like people just do what they want there are some good games were people actually work together and want to win but not always the case. Playing LoL rigth now and getting a good group is happens about 50 60 percent of the time. Might work if it is individual guilds coming tother to make those large groups . So while I do not doubt you have good games were people exhibit orderly conduct think it is also safe to say that well there are a lot of trolls out there that could not care less what happens in game met my fair share.

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