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Action combat vs. Tab targeting
Maup
Member
Introduction
After some reading through this forum I stumbled up some interesting topics. I've seen it in a few posts now but the topic states the Action combat stance versus the Tab targeting stance.
For the ease of not having to type it out constantly I'll use the abbreviations: AC = Action Combat, TT = Tab Targeting & AoC = Ashes of Creation
As well as for the people who don't know what these types are, click here to go to the wiki page of Combat Targeting. At the right you'll see a video explaining the working of TT inside AoC
What I am most interested to hear is the following
> First of all what are your thoughts on this in general
> As well as what are your thoughts on this topic surrounding Ashes of Creation
> What you would suggest to another player and the way you would suggest this, like with what statements
> Have you played other MMO's that have this feature involved
> Do you prefer to use AC or TT
My take on it
I've played games that had both AC as well as TT. The first game (MMO) I played where I actually used it was Guild Wars 2. For the people who know or even played this game, I played an elementalist and used TT in World vs. World. Of course this would put you in other trouble like being limited to what you see or being vulnerable from behind.
My general thoughts on AC are this is superior. This is mainly because I am used to playing AC. I am down to try TT since it does look promising in this game after seeing the video where they introduced TT in AoC
If I had to suggest AC or TT to a NEW player I would say go AC since that is kind of the default. However if you are experienced with AC and you're down to play something new you should definately try TT at least once. It looks to me very promising inside AoC.
Generally speaking it doesn't matter what you choose. It is all up to personal preference. In recent MMO's that have it usually AC is in PVP terms better than TT. But maybe AoC will change this, I don't know. I am of the opinion tho that if one of the two needs to be better than the other it should be AC. Since this is the default that everyone knows, if they can balance it out perfectly fine then that would be optimal.
After some reading through this forum I stumbled up some interesting topics. I've seen it in a few posts now but the topic states the Action combat stance versus the Tab targeting stance.
For the ease of not having to type it out constantly I'll use the abbreviations: AC = Action Combat, TT = Tab Targeting & AoC = Ashes of Creation
As well as for the people who don't know what these types are, click here to go to the wiki page of Combat Targeting. At the right you'll see a video explaining the working of TT inside AoC
What I am most interested to hear is the following
> First of all what are your thoughts on this in general
> As well as what are your thoughts on this topic surrounding Ashes of Creation
> What you would suggest to another player and the way you would suggest this, like with what statements
> Have you played other MMO's that have this feature involved
> Do you prefer to use AC or TT
My take on it
I've played games that had both AC as well as TT. The first game (MMO) I played where I actually used it was Guild Wars 2. For the people who know or even played this game, I played an elementalist and used TT in World vs. World. Of course this would put you in other trouble like being limited to what you see or being vulnerable from behind.
My general thoughts on AC are this is superior. This is mainly because I am used to playing AC. I am down to try TT since it does look promising in this game after seeing the video where they introduced TT in AoC
If I had to suggest AC or TT to a NEW player I would say go AC since that is kind of the default. However if you are experienced with AC and you're down to play something new you should definately try TT at least once. It looks to me very promising inside AoC.
Generally speaking it doesn't matter what you choose. It is all up to personal preference. In recent MMO's that have it usually AC is in PVP terms better than TT. But maybe AoC will change this, I don't know. I am of the opinion tho that if one of the two needs to be better than the other it should be AC. Since this is the default that everyone knows, if they can balance it out perfectly fine then that would be optimal.
Just a HYPED man
If you have any questions feel free message me
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Comments
I’ve most enjoyed the combat of games like Vindictus or Black Desert where I can play endlessly and never feel bored of the actual combat. The rest of the game is the limiting factor, not the combat. A game like Final Fantasy though? Gag. I’ve tried it, and I know it has a lot to offer but tab combat is so disgusting.
From experience, there are lots of tab target fanboys and old school purists who won’t like my opinion but that’s fine, I don’t care. I’ve paid good money on this game so far and I’ll voice my opinion on combat until the day the game releases if I have to.
Because AOC is said to have both AC and TT skills available as you are building your character, and they will let you pick between a AC or TT version of each skill. Unless I am drastically misunderstanding something. That is how I understand it will work for AOC.
That said. AC skills should always do more damage than TT skills as a reward for good aim. Aimed shots are always harder to pull off than TT skills and thus the only way to justify a reason to use them would be to make them more damaging.
I don't know if every skill will have a AC or TT version, or if they are different skills altogether. If there is a circumstance where a TT skill does more damage than a AC skill than that AC skill will just never be used. The other way around this is not true. There will always be people who prefer TT and they should be mature enough to understand that a damage loss for a low skill playstyle is fair. If a AC skill does less than a TT skill it is far less likely that a player who prefers AC will use the AC skill because they are not getting rewarded for taking the risks involved in using that AC move.
I have more thoughts on the subject, but would like to save them for the DEV Discussion on AC vs TT.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
That is very interesting to hear, can't wait for a dev update on this.
We have already been told that ranged action skills are going to be in the form of a cylindrical hitbox rather than a single point, this in itself almost nullifies the additional damage from aiming argument.
Also, a good tab target system simply moves the skill from the need to aim (which is all an action combat system offers in terms of skill) to the ability to use the right ability at the right time.
These are different skills, but are no less difficult to master.
Maybe ac abilities will have the option to hit a headshot (extra damage) while tt will always be body shots. With crit hits available on both
This is of course an opinion. However the argument of that it moves the skill isn't really that valid. The skill of doing the right rotation will be present with both AC and TT, with AC it is only a matter that you need to aim too (which makes it more difficult depending on the ability).
If combat can be done in rotations, you do not have a good combat system.
Rotations is the wrong word, what I mean is what you said in posts before "the ability to use the right ability at the right time". So replace rotation with that.
some abilities are action combat like melee cleaves, hack, slash, stab, block, parry, AOE etc
some abilities require tracking which tab targeting like spells that are homing missiles
some abilities are free aim which require aiming then action combat.
some abilities require self target vs specific target (ally vs enemy)
everyone has preferences, but the diversity of classes and playstyles allow for the hybridization to work.
tracking vs free-aim essentially which would determine utilization better
Can an action ability be made with this same property? Sure.
Do any games do this to the extent of a good tab target game? No.
In both systems, as well as in a system that combines both combat types, the developers are able to make the system as hard as they like, up to, including and even surpassing a difficulity level that players would be able to deal with reasonably.
As such, we need to assume that the develoeprs will have the ability to exactly and precisely set the difficulty of combat how they wish it to be.
If they want tab to be easier, they can make it easier by reducing the importance of timing and correct skill choice. If they want action to be easier, they can make it easier by reducing the importance of aiming (as we have already seen them do).
As such, the notion that one should be inherently higher damage than the other is, as far as I am concerned, a null and void argument.
I can't deny this, we'll see it more in depth with the dev post soon (I hope)
The general idea still stands. AC requires more effort and risk than TT and thus should be rewarded appropriately.
The idea that TT and AC are simply equal but separate skills is just silly to me. Part of the reason WildStar and Tera did not catch on is because casuals could not handle aiming. A common complaint about those games was the challenge of AC. I have never heard anyone complain that they can't even hit anyone in TT, but I would hear it in Wildstar all the time. (Also shout out to wild star for allowing me to level from like 5 to 50 though PvP alone.)
Were just going to have to disagree again on this one. Unless the hitboxes are massive I can't agree that TT requires similar skill. The fact that manually dodging TT moves is harder than AC is also a reason why AC moves should do more damage.
In a hypothetical dual between a TT and AC player. Same class, skills do the same damage, skill level of player of both players is exactly on par. All things the same except how the moves hit. The TT character both can't miss their target and is harder to hit. Whilst the AC character is going to have a harder time hitting and can miss their target. Why would anyone pick AC if it was not better in some way?
I will extend a potential olive branch and say they could be balanced if AC moves never have a miss chance while TT moves are subject to accuracy rolls and other such RPG mechanics.
Edit: I did look for the information on the hitbox's on the wiki. I could not find any good information. Nothing about shapes and sizes. Other than weapon cones.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Yes, and this is what drives me crazy when people claim Guild Wars 2 is “action combat”. It’s literally auto-tab. Just look in the general direction of the enemy and press 1. Snooze.
I'm kind of hoping ashe's hybrid system ends up a little like darksouls where all abilities can be free aimed but you can focus a target to have your abilities automatically aimed at your focused target. You could have your hit-scan/ray-cast abilities that basically function like traditional tab skills and projectile abilities that would become harder to use on a focused target as the target can move out of the way before it lands.
I think GW2 system worked similar to this but they don't give the players much ability to aim.
I also think true action combat requires actual key combos and/or ability chaining (such as, two basic swings and then a heavy swing or three basic swings and then two heavy swings both result in completely different moves). Instead of just “press 1 to swing”, “press 2 to block”, “press 3 to charge”.
I’m not against having a hot key shortcut to quick cast an ability with a long cool down because I won’t be using it often. But basic bread and butter attacks shouldn’t be on the hotbar or at least have the basics on the mouse buttons like left click basic attack (I know that’s already standard) and right click for heavy attack or block depending on class, etc.
A common complaint in EQ2 was that the combat was too complex, and people didn't know what ability to use at all.
As I said, these are different skills, but no less difficult to master.
That said, I think we are unlikely to see action combat in the manner that many people seem to think we will. We know the cylindrical projectile thing, and we know Steven has said that he considered telegraphed AoE abilities to be action combat.
Disagreeing with any ideas that TT is as hard as AC aside.
Can you find that cylindrical projectile thing? I looked myself no luck. Without knowing sizes and orientations of hitbox shapes it is really hard to tell if it is a fake AC like GW2 or a real one like Tera/Wildstar.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
That's what true hybrid is, and "snooze" is your opinion. I find GW2 combat highly engaging and mobile. Maybe you just did the simple pve content that doesn't require more complex combat skill?
It's true you don't need to aim every skill, but I'd say about half of them you do. And you definitely need to maneuver to avoid skills and skillshots.
Indeed, our next Dev Discussion topic is slated to be right up this alley in terms of getting your thoughts on hybrid combat
Nope, I've looked for it in the past. It is one of those comments that was made, but as it doesn't really fit neatly in to a wiki page it wasn't noted and time stamped.
I would honestly expect action combat in Ashes to be closer to GW2 than Wildstar - not as bad as GW2, but closer to it.
I'll keep an eye out for it.
Like I said, my expectation was that we could choose between AC and TT as needed. I don't see why the two extremes between AC and TT can't be compatible so long as they are balanced well. You could have someone with a wildstar move set fight someone with a wow move set no problem so long as the stats work together.
GW2 is a sore subject for most people who like AC. For many is was a major let down. I can live with Ashes AC being GW2 bad, but if Ashes is shooting for the stars on AC then Wlidstar is the game to aim for (IMO).
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Yeah, I don't disagree with any of this.
GW2 was a disapointment for more than people wanting a good action combat MMO.
I would like to see action combat based mroe around a game like Wildstar than GW2 (based on what I have heard of it), and I would also like tab target based more around a game like EQ2 than WoW.
Hoenstly though, while that is what I want, it is not what I expect.
I expect a much softer version of each combat system - at least at launch.
This is definitely not the popular opinion. If anything the common sentiment is the combat of GW2 is the most amazing thing about it. If anything people complain more that everything else is lackluster.
This is the only forum where I've found people who have some kind of weirdly specific negative bias for it.
Just look at the chat during the combat reveal stream where Steven was attacking the birds. The entire chat was frantically pogging that it was similar to GW2 combat. It's definitely a favourable outcome.
GW2 is action combat for people that like tab target combat, but want to be one of the cool kids playing action combat games.
This is why it is about what I expect Ashes to end up with in terms of action combat, and why I agree that GW2 was not well liked by people that want actual action combat.
Ok that's a fair statement, though I myself like it because I find the combat actually engaging and intuitive and fun, not because I "want to play an action combat game"
I do also think it's a little disingenuous to categorize GW2 players into a single mindset like that. Anyone can claim something about a group or push motives on them.
Lovely! Looking forward as well
I think the most info will be in the dev discussion soon. Regardless of the NDA