Death Penalty - What do we want?

If you die, should you lose experience? Gathering Materials? Lose your subscription?!

What is your opinion on death penalties? If no, why? If yes, in what way shape or form?

In my opinion, if the death Penalty Is too high, it promotes safe gameplay, which leads to boring gameplay. Risk taking is fun, it makes our heart race, it creates memories and experiences.

I think the death penalty should exist, but not cost more than a couple I'd minutes in drawback.

What do you think?

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Comments

Noaani

To me, the best death penalty would be a need to kill specific solo mobs that offer no reward other tha resolving your death penalty.

That way, if you have a class you enjoy playing, the death penalty is only resolved by dedicating time specifically to that task, but doing so is at least somewhat enjoyable.

Vhaeyne

I am fine with a harsh death penalty. Up to and including leveling down.
Loss of sub is obviously too much.

I feel like extreme death penalty's only make risks that much more exciting. I have played a few "Perma Death" characters in the past, and the there is a thrill of making it out of a sticky situation that would otherwise feel mundane.

It might make you play safer more often, but some times you "gotta roll the hard six". In that moment is is thrilling.

A few times a year DDO does the perma death league with a leader board. Getting to the top of that leader board requires you to take risks like running whole raids on a perma death character because the leader board is based on the percentage of the games content you have completed on a single life and the difficulty you are doing that content on. All I can say is that it is great fun. Around ever corner is possible death.

I would not want perma death for Ashes, but I at least want to feel the cold heartless embrace of death.

Ramirez

Lose some gear parts, even mounts, that will help balancing the economy, that way will end with the thinking "i have the best gear/Mounts in the game, i m done"

Percimes

To me, the dying is the real penalty, having failed at what I was doing. Adding xp dept, material loses and other effects doesn't affect my risk taking much, it's more a hassle, unless it is really harsh. In that case I will simply avoid what got me killed at all cost, meaning: no further voluntary attempts on my part. If then forced onto me too often, it just means the game is not for me.

I'm not reward motivated. Positive or negative. I'm thrilled by the doing with little thoughts of what comes after the success, or failure. If I found it fun enough, I'll do it again. If the price of failure outweigh the pleasure, if paying back the dept isn't fun enough to incur it in the first place, I'll simply avoid it.

Songcaller

The current death penalties planned already means I wont associate with nodes, run caravans or duel in Ashes. If death penalties are removed from massed PvP I will still be in a guild but if death penalties exist in massed PvP I probs wont enter into a guild either.

Jahlon

Neurath wrote: »

The current death penalties planned already means I wont associate with nodes, run caravans or duel in Ashes. If death penalties are removed from massed PvP I will still be in a guild but if death penalties exist in massed PvP I probs wont enter into a guild either.

You don't take the flagged death penalty when you die in meaningful PvP themes.

Which means duels, caravans, node wars, and node sieges do not come with the death penalty since you are not flagged, and they are events where death is expected.

Ramirez

Jahlon wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

The current death penalties planned already means I wont associate with nodes, run caravans or duel in Ashes. If death penalties are removed from massed PvP I will still be in a guild but if death penalties exist in massed PvP I probs wont enter into a guild either.

You don't take the flagged death penalty when you die in meaningful PvP themes.

Which means duels, caravans, node wars, and node sieges do not come with the death penalty since you are not flagged, and they are events where death is expected.

This is confirmed? Sorry but i think even this type of pvp will need penalties or defensive team will always win, you need something that when you die you think two times if you want to comeback... If there is no penalties in this type of fight, tactic in fighs will be inexistent, because you can always die and comeback, and who will have the vantage is people with the spawn near to the event

Saedu

the inconvenience of dieing (and knowing you lost) is enough of a penalty. There is no need for additional penalty. WoW got it spot on with the "corpse run" (or 30 second respawn time in pvp instances). I recall when WoW first came out this was a major selling point and its worked well for a very long time (except how they handle deaths in the Maw is not good, but that whole zone is meh until you get the mount).

I guess they do have the item durability hit for pve deaths, but that gold loss is so inconsequential. The penalty is more about the knowledge that you didn't succeed in what you were trying to do than in anything else.

I think any sort of XP/gear loss would be terrible. I never want to go back and have to grind up XP again.
I want to get to max level ASAP, and then get into the real game (I'm also a firm believer that the shorter the leveling process and the more the end game experience the better the game). XP loss is one of the big reasons I never even tried the original EQ (and one of my hesitancy in considering this game).

If I died to a high risk mob(s) that I thought I could take and there was a XP loss, I wouldn't even both trying again (where's the fun in that?). If there isn't a major penalty though, then I'd totally be up for a second shot at it even though I know its going to stretch my abilities/skills to get the kill.

It shouldn't be about being penalized when you die... It should be about being motivated to try out hard content that will stretch you, and then rewarded when you succeed against the hard content.

PoliceGirl

Death penalties! YES bring it on! It's the only real thing that makes this a game worth playing!

Without death penalties why not just eat a bowl of cereal and watch cartoons!?

I murdered my way through dark souls 2 finally feeling the sting of death!

Anyone who gets what I'm saying will get what I'm saying!

xDrac

I'm not too big a fan of harsh death penalties... I don't mind losing some experience and having a small debuff that you need to get rid of somehow (eventually it goes away by x amount of time or you could need to buy something to get rid of it, but then it probably shouldn't happen on every death?)

Tarkl

I think we are moving away from the intent of the system, which is really an anti-pk system or at least that players carry out massacres of other players for pleasure, preventing others from leveling (especially with respect to an lv max killing "rookie" players or low-level characters)=
with this means that: you can kill other players if for example they are also farming and grinding what you, the risk would be to kill them and with it a death penalty and they can come looking for you, the reward is that you will grow materials and many players will stay away from you to not die
but all the pvp established for it will not put it as for example already said the caravans, nobody will put corruption, and will not always win the defender because if the materials are rare or valuable, but players will ally to plunder you, and defenders are likely to be friends, guild partners, mercenaries or people who directly benefit from the caravan

Alsop

(That full coment will be taking onto consideration that not everyone likes the full loot pvp games, if it were up to me, I would like to have a game with 100% drop rate of inventory on death excluding cosmetics and tools)
To me the drop penaly should be bassed on coruption sistems. so:

A non-combatant should drop 20% of his inventory (ony things that you can sell), on that drop should be a chance of a 10% for items to get destroyed (lets say a gatherer has only 100 wood, so he dies and drop 20 wood and there is a chacne 2 wood can get destroyed, but he also has a sword on inventory, there is a 20% chance to drop it and if it drops there is a 10% chacne to get destroyed). The same for equiped gear but with lower rates since its not a combatant there should be only a 5% drop chance.

A combatant shoud be the same way but with a 50% drop rate on inventory (lets say again gatherer has only 100 wood, so he dies and drop 50 wood and there is a chacne 5 wood can get destroyed, but he also has a sword on inventory, there is a 50% chance to drop it and if it drops there is a 10% chacne to get destroyed). The same for equiped gear but since its combatant the drop rate should rise to 15-20% drop chance.

_____So this is for normal people, i will put a limit of 1 drop on equiped items for NC and 2 equipoed items for Combatants, so lets say the sistems randomly picks an equiped item and the 5% chance is positive and you drop your weapon , it stops there so there is not a chance of loosing your armor too. On this side i will exclude tools from the drop and also recipes and cosmetics of raids.

Now the corrupted, i think there should be a great incentive for corrupted players that is getting items from other players when killed thats why you need a death penalty that drop items and not just loosing your time, but also you need apunisment for that. So a base drop rate of 50% up to 100% bassed on your corruption level, that including your equiped gear and tools. And each time you die you get a reduction on your corruption level (only once a day and the one who kills you should be a combatant, and your death should geta minimum value so you just dong die naked).

That said i will put a chacne of items to get drestroyed (not droped) on node sieges of 10% too and a 100% item destruction rate for castle siege.

I think that the destruction of objects is something basic for the economy of the game to remain stable, because in a game where the generation of resources is infinite if those resources do not disappear at a high rate the value of the objects decays making the experience of being a gatherer, precesser or crafter a waste of time and a very unsatisfying experience, it is good that people want PVP and say to themselves "I do not want to lose anything so I can have a more aggressive style of play in pvp" , but in the end pvp is something that has to come with risk, if there is no risk it is meaningless, if there is no penalty when you are fighting with someone and he sees that he is going to lose he will just stand still for you to kill him, or when you are hunting someone he won't really care about dying and it will be meaningless, if the player has something to lose he will keep trying until the end giving situations of chases or fights that can last more than 10 minutes.

As for the sieges it is obvious that if there is no loss of equipment when a guild gets the best items in the game will make no sense, there will be a figth where everyone use the top tier gear, dominating a castle should be a demonstration not only of skill in combat but also in resource management, politics and especially in devising plans for combat to minimize losses and not end up being a battlefield where people get to throw areas randomly. If you enter the defense or attack a node it should be because you really want to participate in the event as such ,and not just get in to see how long you last, avoiding that players who have no intention of competing for the node , to get in to troll , as they will lose part of their equipment. Which brings me to another question, ¿how to prevent players from entering the defense of a node with extremely low equipment just to troll?

There are a lot of doubts and questions that I would like to discuss but since English is not my native language I don't feel comfortable making a post about it. I would like the game to have a more hardcore approach to pvp but not so much that hardcore players can abuse the system to dominate, you have to give tools to players who do not spend so many hours in the game to deal with alliances or guilds that are fully dedicated to the game, and I think the drop rate is the perfect sistem for that. Keeping the players of using his top tier gear 24/7 even when they are just going to gather.

Blandmarrow

I think the current system Ashes aims for is a good balance between harsh and forgiving for both PvE and PvP players.

PvP players would likely want a harsher system with more loot dropping, but with the current system it might actually be worth pking and fighting for resources which is a good compromise for them

PvE players would likely want less penalties so they could enjoy everything outside PvP more, but the current penalty system is not so harsh that it puts you behind significantly. It also promotes teamwork!

Personally I'd like it to be even harsher because penalties need to exist so you don't just turn your brain off and stop being engaged. But if I could change something with the system it would probably be the amount of loot dropped on death and maybe some slight modifications to the corruption system. It's hard at this point to criticize it when we can neither see it in action nor test it, but I am afraid of it being exploitable or abuseable.

Gannito

I will always bet on losing xp outside of pvp. If you make a boss and die, if you are going to get materials, equipment, whatever, death has to be penalized with loss of xp. The truth is that this way the game is much more fun and exciting, because in the trial error is the success and the satisfaction of getting things.

Now, being in a game, where you cannot move freely, because at any moment a group of enemies appears to you and makes you kiss the ground, without being able to farm, without being able to level, without being able to do anything, and on top of that you lose exp .. honestly, it's not going to be my game. I will play outside "the system", I will dedicate myself to have adventures, to explore new areas, to change nodes, to create my team, to have my closed group of friends and have fun while the rest of you get stressed out by wanting to dominate the server. I do not criticize it, it can be played in many ways and each of them valid. But of course, I will not be within the competitive.

All the best.

Gannito

Alsop wrote: »

(That full coment will be taking onto consideration that not everyone likes the full loot pvp games, if it were up to me, I would like to have a game with 100% drop rate of inventory on death excluding cosmetics and tools)
To me the drop penaly should be bassed on coruption sistems. so:

A non-combatant should drop 20% of his inventory (ony things that you can sell), on that drop should be a chance of a 10% for items to get destroyed (lets say a gatherer has only 100 wood, so he dies and drop 20 wood and there is a chacne 2 wood can get destroyed, but he also has a sword on inventory, there is a 20% chance to drop it and if it drops there is a 10% chacne to get destroyed). The same for equiped gear but with lower rates since its not a combatant there should be only a 5% drop chance.

A combatant shoud be the same way but with a 50% drop rate on inventory (lets say again gatherer has only 100 wood, so he dies and drop 50 wood and there is a chacne 5 wood can get destroyed, but he also has a sword on inventory, there is a 50% chance to drop it and if it drops there is a 10% chacne to get destroyed). The same for equiped gear but since its combatant the drop rate should rise to 15-20% drop chance.

_____So this is for normal people, i will put a limit of 1 drop on equiped items for NC and 2 equipoed items for Combatants, so lets say the sistems randomly picks an equiped item and the 5% chance is positive and you drop your weapon , it stops there so there is not a chance of loosing your armor too. On this side i will exclude tools from the drop and also recipes and cosmetics of raids.

Now the corrupted, i think there should be a great incentive for corrupted players that is getting items from other players when killed thats why you need a death penalty that drop items and not just loosing your time, but also you need apunisment for that. So a base drop rate of 50% up to 100% bassed on your corruption level, that including your equiped gear and tools. And each time you die you get a reduction on your corruption level (only once a day and the one who kills you should be a combatant, and your death should geta minimum value so you just dong die naked).

That said i will put a chacne of items to get drestroyed (not droped) on node sieges of 10% too and a 100% item destruction rate for castle siege.

I think that the destruction of objects is something basic for the economy of the game to remain stable, because in a game where the generation of resources is infinite if those resources do not disappear at a high rate the value of the objects decays making the experience of being a gatherer, precesser or crafter a waste of time and a very unsatisfying experience, it is good that people want PVP and say to themselves "I do not want to lose anything so I can have a more aggressive style of play in pvp" , but in the end pvp is something that has to come with risk, if there is no risk it is meaningless, if there is no penalty when you are fighting with someone and he sees that he is going to lose he will just stand still for you to kill him, or when you are hunting someone he won't really care about dying and it will be meaningless, if the player has something to lose he will keep trying until the end giving situations of chases or fights that can last more than 10 minutes.

As for the sieges it is obvious that if there is no loss of equipment when a guild gets the best items in the game will make no sense, there will be a figth where everyone use the top tier gear, dominating a castle should be a demonstration not only of skill in combat but also in resource management, politics and especially in devising plans for combat to minimize losses and not end up being a battlefield where people get to throw areas randomly. If you enter the defense or attack a node it should be because you really want to participate in the event as such ,and not just get in to see how long you last, avoiding that players who have no intention of competing for the node , to get in to troll , as they will lose part of their equipment. Which brings me to another question, ¿how to prevent players from entering the defense of a node with extremely low equipment just to troll?

There are a lot of doubts and questions that I would like to discuss but since English is not my native language I don't feel comfortable making a post about it. I would like the game to have a more hardcore approach to pvp but not so much that hardcore players can abuse the system to dominate, you have to give tools to players who do not spend so many hours in the game to deal with alliances or guilds that are fully dedicated to the game, and I think the drop rate is the perfect sistem for that. Keeping the players of using his top tier gear 24/7 even when they are just going to gather.

Totally against.

This type of game is only used for those who have 10 hours a day TO PLAY, they get together with a single purpose, which is to dominate the server, (regardless of the rest of experiences,) not let the rest play game turns into SHIT.

I have seen how troops of players changed servers, just to dominate it, leave it as a desert and continue their way to another server.

Wonderful game huh ???? Pay so that they do not let you play, so that you lose everything you get with your TIME, time that is not returned or recovered. Anyway...

Biccus

In my personal opinion with only dropping a percent of gatherables, materials and certificates they are close to the perfect balance of risk vs reward. (I think 20% for non-combatants, 10% for combatants and 80% for corrupted is suitable)

I say this because if you have your own gear droppable too then the risk of focusing on gathering far outweighs the rewards. Not only do you have to risk dying while you gather but then you have to risk the caravan while moving everything you’ve gathered.

You must be careful with severe death penalties. As soon as players believe they’ve totally wasted their time because they lose too much, they won’t bother trying anymore.

Alsop

Gannito wrote: »

Totally against.

This type of game is only used for those who have 10 hours a day TO PLAY, they get together with a single purpose, which is to dominate the server, (regardless of the rest of experiences,) not let the rest play game turns into SHIT.

I have seen how troops of players changed servers, just to dominate it, leave it as a desert and continue their way to another server.

Wonderful game huh ???? Pay so that they do not let you play, so that you lose everything you get with your TIME, time that is not returned or recovered. Anyway...

There is no way a group of players can dominate 103 nodes . The full loot pvp has taught me that knowledge overcomes everything. I dont want to play a game that just take my exp off when i die so i have to kill 78173216 mobs again to level up. That way i wont learn anything but grinding .I want a game that makes me worry about whether or not it's worth the risk to go into enemy territory and not just go in because YOLO! i want a true MMO and not a multiplayer RPG

If there is no way of loosing your gear and everyone ends up using legendary items ¿why do you even call them legendary?

Wonderfull game huh??? i will just colect every item and wait for a 5 max level increase DLC called expansion that makes my legendary items looks like garbage so i need to grind again to get the new drops. Interaction between players is not necessary unless I am the one looking for it.

Leonerdo

Saedu wrote: »

the inconvenience of dieing (and knowing you lost) is enough of a penalty. There is no need for additional penalty. WoW got it spot on with the "corpse run" (or 30 second respawn time in pvp instances). I recall when WoW first came out this was a major selling point and its worked well for a very long time (except how they handle deaths in the Maw is not good, but that whole zone is meh until you get the mount).

I guess they do have the item durability hit for pve deaths, but that gold loss is so inconsequential. The penalty is more about the knowledge that you didn't succeed in what you were trying to do than in anything else.

I think any sort of XP/gear loss would be terrible. I never want to go back and have to grind up XP again.
I want to get to max level ASAP, and then get into the real game (I'm also a firm believer that the shorter the leveling process and the more the end game experience the better the game). XP loss is one of the big reasons I never even tried the original EQ (and one of my hesitancy in considering this game).

If I died to a high risk mob(s) that I thought I could take and there was a XP loss, I wouldn't even both trying again (where's the fun in that?). If there isn't a major penalty though, then I'd totally be up for a second shot at it even though I know its going to stretch my abilities/skills to get the kill.

It shouldn't be about being penalized when you die... It should be about being motivated to try out hard content that will stretch you, and then rewarded when you succeed against the hard content.

I agree with most of this.

Spending your time without achieving success (and missing out on the reward) is enough of a penalty.

Players doing stupid shit SHOULD be penalized extra, so they learn to stop doing stupid shit. But trial and error, exploration, and honest mistakes are terrible reasons to punish players.

Ostaff

One man's stupid is another man's genius.

"Here hold this beer a moment for me."

Ratzu

Seeing a lot of comments that I think miss that the penalty system as envisaged already creates enough of a cost at death that the player will (1) learn from their mistakes, and (2) feel the thrill of potential gain or loss.

Now, on the one hand, if Intrepid designs the penalty to be too severe, they are favoring the hardcore no-life segment of the player-base to the detriment of the more casual players or the PVE-focused players. On the other hand, if they design the penalty to be insufficiently severe, then you will lose the incentive to play more intelligently, to plan your moves across the landscape, and the thrill of winning an evening-defining moment.

I've seen some folks, elsewhere, ask for a full-loot PVP zone. I think this is too harsh because you have to decide where to put these zones that is unimportant enough such that players passing by or traveling from A-B aren't forced to enter it. I think that you could create such a zone for dropping full-inventory but not including equipped gear, but the same problem persists.

Finding balance on this aspect of the game is certainly not easy because it requires either a compromise (what we currently have) or else it requires that Intrepid favor one portion of the player-base over another. Each of the people arguing for a more severe penalty or a minimally-severe penalty seem to be transparently advocating for a system that favors their style of gaming rather than what is best for the game and the community as a whole. I'd like to see more suggestions on what might improve the death-penalty system for all players without sacrificing one aspect of the player-base.

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