Do we need Character Levels?

I had an idea that I would like your thoughts on.

With so many ways to play this game and level your character, do we really need some arbitrary character level? If someone levels a character to 50 through combat, and another character to 50 by professions, then their level 50 really doesn't mean much.

An idea I had was to allow your character to level in many different areaa, like combat, professions, trade, etc. Let's say you can level to 50 in each of these categories, and then your "character level" would be the combination of all these different levels.

Is there another game out there that does this? Is this a good idea or bad idea?

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Starcry

I tend to disagree with most takes about leveling. Until recently, most games content was developed to play while leveling. Only in the past five years have companies basically opted for a way to skip or rush it because most of their development time is spent for endgame. IF the majority of the games content is designed around the core leveling experience like older MMO's were, then I think a slow leveling and getting those levels are part of the games reward system. And are actually worth achieving. A perfect example i can think of is FFXI where the leveling was slow and a grind but getting that level was an event, and it opened more of the game up to you. Sure there were things to do at the end of the game but the core of that game was getting there in the first place.

What gamers today don't seem to understand is that the endgame for them is all they want to get to because its where all the 'good stuff' is. But they forget that some games just weren't initially designed that way, they were designed for you to more slowly experience the world and feel a sense of growth on the way like a good RPG does. That feeling has been lost because of players rushing, which pushes developers towards simply making endgame content for them to consume instead of playing the game as it was built. Thus the current Meta and the feeling of the open world really being left behind, is being replaced with instances and segregation of the core gameplay loop people played the game for in the first place.

Ashes interests me because it feels like they are developing the game for you to play its core concept while leveling and feeling a sense of growth and not a mad dash to have to be the best at max level. And levels are the best way to do that in this type of setting. Slow down people and learn to enjoy your video games again. Leveling is fun, you just forgot why it was fun because recent games treat it as a barrier to entry instead of a core mechanic. If you level 1-50 in 40 hours, of course leveling is stupid and each level has no weight to it. But if it takes 15 hours just to get 1 level, getting that level is a milestone and it feels good.

Saedu

I like the idea of core content being available while leveling and leveling not being a barrier to getting to that content. It still feels a bit like you are doing it suboptimal though (especially since while leveling you often don't have your full set if spells, you can feel like your playing an incomplete class). I just want to get to the core aspects of the game as quickly as I can so I can them master them. 15 hours/level sounds like it would be a terrible grind.

I'm all for ongoing progression in various ways that make my max level character more powerful or that reward cosmetics (but be sure to have appropriate catch up mechanisms for users who start late, alts, or users who change their main. Without those the game will have too high if a barrier to entry long term and eventually die off due to atrophy).

I also wouldn't consider this theme park mentality. I'm not looking to skip the open world/sandbox experience. I just want to spend my time doing these activites max level with all of my classes skills instead of sub-par level grinding.

CounselorMin

Starcry wrote: »

Ashes interests me because it feels like they are developing the game for you to play its core concept while leveling and feeling a sense of growth and not a mad dash to have to be the best at max level.

I find this statement to be the most important for what Ashes is trying to do to revolutionize the genre, and what I personally find one of the more inspirational things about the game is that it seeks to redefine what is "end game." Certainly some folks think that "the real game" does not start until max level. I would like to see a game where "max level" is not as important and that the leveling process of contributing to your node is just as important at lower levels than the high ones.

I really hope Ashes gets this right. Their introductory videos they did on this point were awesome and I hope we get a polished result on this.

Maezriel

CounselorMin wrote: »

would like to see a game where "max level" is not as important and that the leveling process of contributing to your node is just as important at lower levels than the high ones.

I know a lot of people are excited for the return of "getting to max level will take months of time" but honestly I would be okay if Intrepid flipped it and made max level fairly easy to get to while providing a ton of ancillary skills we can take our time grinding so that it better focused the game on the nodes and growth of the world rather than just grinding boars simply to unlock your next spell.

Saedu

"Max level" could best be defined to me as when you have all of your spells/abilities (maybe not all augments)... if that happens at level 20 or 30, and there are still another 30 or 20 levels where you get to use your full toolkit, but you just get more powerful over time, then that would work for me.

There would need to not be major power gaps between levels if course. These extra levels would be somewhat like extra power from better gear.

bloodprophet

More people need to learn how to enjoy the journey.
The game will start at character creation and end when you decide it ends. The whole point of the game is to have fun why maximize the fun out of it. Just make your Tulnar go into Verra and have fun.
Kind of like when you where a small child just go out and explore and find your fun. Or have you always needed some one to script your fun for you?
Levels provide away to give feedback to the players of lessons learned and abilities gained.

Maezriel

bloodprophet wrote: »

More people need to learn how to enjoy the journey.
The game will start at character creation and end when you decide it ends. The whole point of the game is to have fun why maximize the fun out of it. Just make your Tulnar go into Verra and have fun.
Kind of like when you where a small child just go out and explore and find your fun. Or have you always needed some one to script your fun for you?
Levels provide away to give feedback to the players of lessons learned and abilities gained.

I don't think this is fair. For as long as there's been RPGs there's been munchkins that enjoy the optimization of their characters. Nerds enjoy crunching into their characters and any gamer w/ a hint of competitiveness likes to know that they can do better.

Even in games as on the rails as Retail WoW no one is stopping you from taking your time and just enjoying the ride and I don't think a long leveling time is in any way relevant to your personal progress...it's just a timegate between abilities.

Saedu

Maezriel wrote: »

I don't think a long leveling time is in any way relevant to your personal progress...it's just a timegate between abilities.

This is spot on and the core problem with leveling in MMOs! I don't need 3 to 4 hours between each ability added to my core toolkit to learn the new ability. Its more like 10 minutes. For example, it feels bad when your a new tank trying to "experience" tanking for a group at low level and you don't have your taunt because you don't get that till level 20, or your main defensive CD until your level 40... these are core things for your toolkit to fulfill your role and your handicapped until you have them. I get you don't want to overwhelm a new player with 40 skills right at the start, but you also don't want to take multiple hours/days to give the character these abilities.

If anything you want to get the core abilities to players faster. This way they can see of the flow of combat and associated combos/strengths/weaknesses align with the players style, or if the player should reroll. (I loved that WoW added clas trial with a almost max level toon so you could try out the list of abilities before actually committing to the toon. Sure the actual boost is debatable and probably not good for AoC, but the idea of trying out the abilities at max level, then going and creating the level 1 toon can certainly help avoid poor class selection decisions. Reading about classes isn't as good as actual hands on experience).

Saedu

The original DK intro experience in WoW was a good example of pace for adding skills (not levels). A few hours of questing and you had all of your skills.

Percimes

In old games, another aspect of the leveling grind, of making it slow, hard, and punitive when a player failed, had a lot to do on making sure the players didn't blast through the content, got bored with nothing to do and cancelled their subscription. Content takes time to make. Some cultures even value the time dedication into a task.

I wonder how much of the socialization resulting from a slow grind was by design originally or if it was simply a nice side effect to fill the repetitive boredom of the slow progression pace.

In sand box games, the players are, in large part, the content. A slow progression is not as needed as in a theme park.

First person shooters rely almost completely on the players for the gameplay: they will plays hours upon hours with no new content from the developers, a new map or game mode keeps them active for months. Many modern ones have some sort of leveling in them, but the old ones didn't.

McShave

Starcry wrote: »

What gamers today don't seem to understand is that the endgame for them is all they want to get to because its where all the 'good stuff' is. But they forget that some games just weren't initially designed that way, they were designed for you to more slowly experience the world and feel a sense of growth on the way like a good RPG does.

As long as we get our combat skills relatively early on, then it would be great for it to take a very long time to level. If i don't have to worry about getting to max level as quickly as possible, then i can spend some time to smell the roses and to go see what's over that hill over there. Maybe we can have it where you don't need to be max level to do the end game content, but just have so many "combat points" you have gathered.

Saedu wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

I don't think a long leveling time is in any way relevant to your personal progress...it's just a timegate between abilities.

This is spot on and the core problem with leveling in MMOs! I don't need 3 to 4 hours between each ability added to my core toolkit to learn the new ability. Its more like 10 minutes. .

I think combat progression should be tied to how much combat you are doing. If all you do is fight mobs or other players all day, you should get your talent points and rank up your abilities quickly. If you spend your days doing professions, you should be able to rank your profession up quickly instead.

bloodprophet

I find interesting this:
Most games I've played have some sort of intro experience to help with this. That being said, I logged into GW2 for the first time in over 5 years on my max level toon and I was totally lost. I had no idea what to go do.

In the other thread then advocating for it here.

We need to remember not everyone coming to Verra is an MMO veteran. New people coming in that have never played one need a moment to figure stuff out.

McShave:
Maybe we can have it where you don't need to be max level to do the end game content, but just have so many "combat points" you have gathered.

I truly hope this never happens. I am glad the said there will be no scaling.

Saedu

bloodprophet wrote: »

I find interesting this:
Most games I've played have some sort of intro experience to help with this. That being said, I logged into GW2 for the first time in over 5 years on my max level toon and I was totally lost. I had no idea what to go do.

In the other thread then advocating for it here.

We need to remember not everyone coming to Verra is an MMO veteran. New people coming in that have never played one need a moment to figure stuff out.

Two different topics/issues. One is leveling experience and what's needed (I didn't say zero), the other is helping returning players get reoriented to the game so they know what to go do.

And yes, I agree some players will need help learning a MMO + this MMO + their new class while others it will be just learning this MMO + their new class.

What about leveling alts? should that be easier than the main? I typically find it faster cause I know more of the game the second time around anyways, but also at that point its just learning the new character so a lot of the leveling is overly redundant the second time around.

bloodprophet

How the information/skills are given out is kinda the point. Giving all up front and people get confused as you stated in the other thread then people here think everything should be given up front or super early.
I think it should stay the same as it has been since Gygax set it up way back when. Give people a sense of growth and the gaining of power. That is not to say I don't think there should be changes. GW you had to get an item and go capture skills from named mobs in the wild. I like this idea as well.

Leveling alts should be the same I don't see need to make it any different/easier. When you learn more and become more proficient the game naturally becomes easier.

Frostshot1

I hope that leveling, and the emphasis on leveling is minimal in AoC. I hate power creep games like how WoW has become. Each expansion is just an excuse to make everyone farm dungeons again to be some Leet player. Ugh no thanks

bigepeen

Percimes wrote: »

In sand box games, the players are, in large part, the content. A slow progression is not as needed as in a theme park.

It's true. Themeparks desperately need a progression system to keep people playing their game, because it's impossible for devs to create new content faster than players consume it.

This is the flaw of themeparks. You end up playing the same PvE content over and over again, and this gets dull very quickly because there isn't much variation when you're playing against AI instead of actual humans. So most people end up doing the bare minimum for dailies, and logging out immediately when they're done, while waiting for the next expansion. Meanwhile, PvP games will have people happily playing the same maps that were released 10 years ago because they are playing against real players.

That being said, I still think that MMORPGs should have character levels regardless. It makes you more invested in your character, and it makes botting less effective (especially when each account does not need to purchase a box price).

Warth

People like to ding. People want a quantifyable sense/feedback of progression. That's what levels are for and should be in the game.

Introduction to Abilities, Content lockouts... are just side uses that could be in the game with or without the level system

Maezriel

Warth wrote: »

People like to ding. People want a quantifyable sense/feedback of progression. That's what levels are for and should be in the game.

Introduction to Abilities, Content lockouts... are just side uses that could be in the game with or without the level system

Well couldn't the ding and feedback be part of ancillary skills? Think Runescape where you have dozens of skills you can level w/o the need for the hard "character levels" that you see in games like WoW

Noaani

Saedu wrote: »

For example, it feels bad when your a new tank trying to "experience" tanking for a group at low level and you don't have your taunt because you don't get that till level 20

I have never played a game that has not given all classes the abilities they need to function in a group before the same game also gives those players group content in which use them on.

What game is it you are talking about here - or are you making up a hypothetical that means nothing and adds nothing to the conversation since it never happened?

Maezriel

Noaani wrote: »

Saedu wrote: »

For example, it feels bad when your a new tank trying to "experience" tanking for a group at low level and you don't have your taunt because you don't get that till level 20

I have never played a game that has not given all classes the abilities they need to function in a group before the same game also gives those players group content in which use them on.

What game is it you are talking about here - or are you making up a hypothetical that means nothing and adds nothing to the conversation since it never happened?

WoW has had moments where it happens. Not every tank has a taunt yet alone an AoE threat generator when you first start doing dungeons.

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