Friendly rivalry and spotting slackers with no dps/hps meters?

Honestly I'm excited to play an MMO that isn't going to be cluttered up with a million addons and just have everything you need built in.

That said something that worries me as a guild leader is friendly competition, for example in wow I have 2 hunters in my guild who play the same class and spec and are constantly competing with each other for top dps/performance and they love to bounce ideas off each other for rotation/talents/stat prio/etc. Without any way to measure yourself in Ashes how can they continue their friendly rivalry?

I'm also worried about how to spot and deal with slackers in my guild in Ashes since people tend to take the path of least resistance, if I have a healer that throws up a hot on the tanks and then alt tabs to watch anime during a boss fight how would I as GM know unless I'm watching everyone casting? (impossible in large group sizes). If we're wiping because of no healing going out how can I identify its the lazy healer and not slap the blame on the entire heal team? (which would suck for everyone who is really trying).

I propose a very simplified "meter" that only the group lead is able to see that just provides a breakdown of either active time casting abilities/hitting the mobs/moving around or the ability to see what spell and how often the person is pressing it just to be able to see everyone is participating or at least trying. That or allow only the group lead to see dps/hps meters. It doesn't help with the friendly competition aspect but idk what would. I'd honestly really love the option to "opt in" for dps/hps meters in specific content like only the gm/group in lead in large scale content, or anyone in small groups of 2-3, or perhaps have some ingame target dummies that display dps/hps and you can only see it there.

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Azryil

IcipherV wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Combat trackers dont work like that.

what? Of course they do. Combat trackers give you a detailed breakdown of everything that happened during the fight. Number of casts, fight duration, dmg breakdown, the sequence and frequency of the skills used, mana/resources used, to allies healing you and buffing you. In WoW it even shows you players talents.

Would you care to elaborate why is it that it wouldn't work that way in AoC?

It would simplify making builds but it wouldn't automate it, you would still need manually test any build changes with the combat tracker running to compare the results.
Most the the build testing done in wow is done using SimulationCraft to quickly iterate over changes in a build not Advanced Combat logging.

Saedu

I'd recommend keeping the meters in game only. I find things like raider.io and drustvar.com lead more to a pre-judging someone before they get a chance to actually group with you. In particular it can make it tough for people to get into games when they are new cause players making the group don't want to take the risk. Yes, I use these external tools in WoW, but I think the game would be better with only in-game meters.

If you can't externally export the data and it only lasts say ~24 hours in game, then you can use it for analysis in the moment of the games you just did with the people you played with, but it can't be used by other people.

Noaani

IcipherV wrote: »

In WoW it even shows you players talents.

That isn't a combat tracker, that is a hook in the games API.

IcipherV wrote: »

Would you care to elaborate why is it that it wouldn't work that way in AoC?

A combat tracker takes basic information from the games client.

This information usually contains the caster, the target(s), the name of the ability, the amount and type of damage the ability does, and the time.

There is no way - using just a combat tracker - to be able to tell what build a player has.

You can tell what abilities the player has - if someone is hitting you with a spell called fireball, it is safe to assume they have spec'd in to fireball.

However, if fireball does 100 damage as standard, and this player is hitting you with fireballs that deal 120 damage, a combat tracker has no inherent way of knowing if that fireball spell has skill points added to it, if the additional damage is from better gear, if the additional damage is from an augment (I am assuming augments won't change the name of abilities), if the additional damage is from a buff the caster may have, or from a debuff the target may have.

Now, if the game literally tells those that want to know what build the player in question is using (as is the case in WoW), then obviously that is additional information that can be added. However, that is not an inherent aspect of a combat tracker, it is literally the games developers telling you what spec the player has - which as far as I know is something only WoW really does.

I hope that clears up a few misconceptions you have about combat trackers.

Azryil

Saedu wrote: »

I'd recommend keeping the meters in game only. I find things like raider.io and drustvar.com lead more to a pre-judging someone before they get a chance to actually group with you. In particular it can make it tough for people to get into games when they are new cause players making the group don't want to take the risk. Yes, I use these external tools in WoW, but I think the game would be better with only in-game meters.

The APIs that Raider.io uses have nothing to do with dps meters or combat trackers. It uses the battle.net APIs to query armory data.

IcipherV

Azryil wrote: »

It would simplify making builds but it wouldn't automate it, you would still need manually test any build changes with the combat tracker running to compare the results.
Most the the build testing done in wow is done using SimulationCraft to quickly iterate over changes in a build not Advanced Combat logging.

My initial comment was that it would automate the process of reverse engineering builds, in a game that tries to give the player a large amount of options so that they can make their builds unique, which would be counter intuitive to the purpose of the class progression design.

In a 1v1 I can easily tell that your fireball has the DoT upgrade, in a 40v40 it's just not as easy, but a combat tracker will tell me what you, SPECIFICALLY YOU, were running an upped version of fireball. It will also tell me that you used "enter defensive spell here" with lets say a religious augment, something that I wouldn't necessarily be able to tell just from looking at you cast the spell. As such I have access to more info than what I should, based on a 3rd party program.

SimCraft is a tool that helps you find the maximum theoretical throughput of a build, under preset conditions. That is great, but it doesn't allow me to reverse engineer your build (at least not as fast and efficiently - hence the word automate) the same way looking at a breakdown of your skills used.

Noaani wrote: »

However, if fireball does 100 damage as standard, and this player is hitting you with fireballs that deal 120 damage, a combat tracker has no inherent way of knowing if that fireball spell has skill points added to it, if the additional damage is from better gear, if the additional damage is from an augment (I am assuming augments won't change the name of abilities), or if the additional damage is from a buff the player may have.

Yes but if the 20 dmg is in the form of a DoT, I will know that it is an upgraded version of a fireball and DPS meters do tell me if the damage taken is DoT or not. Then using simple deductive reasoning I can know whether you were running an upgraded version of fireball, based on taking DoT or not. Sure, in a 1v1 I can see that for myself, but in a 40v40 or 100v100 or 250v250 it isn't nearly as easy. Also don't forget that I can see damage taken for my grp/raid as well.

Noaani

IcipherV wrote: »

Yes but if the 20 dmg is in the form of a DoT, I will know that it is an upgraded version of a fireball and DPS meters do tell me if the damage taken is DoT or not. Then using simple deductive reasoning I can know whether you were running an upgraded version of fireball, based on taking DoT or not. Sure, in a 1v1 I can see that for myself, but in a 40v40 or 100v100 or 250v250 it isn't nearly as easy. Also don't forget that I can see damage taken for my grp/raid as well.

While this is all true, you are forgetting where the information for an actual combat tracker comes from.

All of the information they have access to is information us players have access to. We have chat windows with combat feedback, and all a combat tracker is doing is taking the information contained there, and presenting it in an easier format.

If you want to know if that players fireball had a DoT attached to it, you don't need a combat tracker to do it. It just makes it easier.

As to your last point about being able to see the damage of your group or raid, that is 100% up to what information the developers allow the combat tracker to have access to. It isn't an automatic given that you will have access to that information, even if most games do allow it.

And even without the above, being able to sometimes tell what augment a player is using on a few spells is not the same thing as a combat tracker automating the process of working out someone's build, which was your claim.

Volgaire

Not a fan of having a huge amount of data on my screen it takes away from enjoying the game because I feel almost obliged to use it if I can for maximum efficiency, I would probably spend more time staring at all those numbers than the actual game until I get everything down to muscle memory.

As far as the guild aspect of it all goes to see who is actually messing up due to tabbing into some anime on the side honestly I think you should know the people you raid with to some extent and be able to figure out who is most likely doing something wrong and instead of berating them for it just try to encourage them to participate more.

I'm pretty ignorant about combat trackers but I always thought that the less numbers a game gives you the better, if instead of seeing a bosses HP we could have a more viusal cue on the model itself it would make the game much more immersive, well for me just my own health/mana/exp etc would be enough and let players figure out other things through playing the game instead of seeing what gives more efficient outcomes simply by looking at the data seen through combat trackers and other similar things.

Noaani

Gentle Snow wrote: »

Not a fan of having a huge amount of data on my screen

Neither am I.

I don't use combat trackers to give me real time information on player performance - I don't find that to be overly useful information to have. I use them to analyze fights after the fact. I will sometimes use them to give me specific data on an encounter if needed by that encounter, but this is about it.

The point to more/better data in a game is that the more data players have, the more they know what is going on, the more intricate encounters are able to be made.

With detailed information, the developers are able to add in mechanics that have very small room for error, and very major consequences should those errors occur. If the developers have to rely on more generalized information feedback to players, those mechanics can't be as finely tuned and/or the penalty for them needs to be significantly lessened.

Volgaire

Noaani wrote: »

Gentle Snow wrote: »

Not a fan of having a huge amount of data on my screen

Neither am I.

I don't use combat trackers to give me real time information on player performance - I don't find that to be overly useful information to have. I use them to analyze fights after the fact. I will sometimes use them to give me specific data on an encounter if needed by that encounter, but this is about it.

The point to more/better data in a game is that the more data players have, the more they know what is going on, the more intricate encounters are able to be made.

With detailed information, the developers are able to add in mechanics that have very small room for error, and very major consequences should those errors occur. If the developers have to rely on more generalized information feedback to players, those mechanics can't be as finely tuned and/or the penalty for them needs to be significantly lessened.

As far as planning encounters goes players would not need to have access to the data that the devs do, so they can still plan/create encounters ?

One issue I have is if I get to look at any data after a fight to help me figure out a more efficient way of going about it, it will take away from a more trial and error approach of just feeling things out. Probably a bad example to give but if I play Dark Souls and I look at the pattern of the boss after dying once then this is enough for me to probably beat it within the next 1-3 tries otherwise I would slave over the boss figuring out how exactly he attacks and how much damage each attack deals etc.

Noaani

Gentle Snow wrote: »

As far as planning encounters goes players would not need to have access to the data that the devs do, so they can still plan/create encounters ?

I don't follow.

No, players don't need access to the data developers have in order to take on encounters, but combat trackers do not provide that information.

One issue I have is if I get to look at any data after a fight to help me figure out a more efficient way of going about it, it will take away from a more trial and error approach of just feeling things out. Probably a bad example to give but if I play Dark Souls and I look at the pattern of the boss after dying once then this is enough for me to probably beat it within the next 1-3 tries otherwise I would slave over the boss figuring out how exactly he attacks and how much damage each attack deals etc.

Without a combat tracker, you are engaging in trial and error blind.

With a combat tracker, you are trying out a thing, getting data, assessing that data, determining where any issues may be, working out a way to deal with those issues and then trying again.

Both are trial and error - one is just far superior to the other. One is only suitable to try and solve simple problems, the other is suitable to try and solve complex problems.

Volgaire

Noaani wrote: »

Gentle Snow wrote: »

As far as planning encounters goes players would not need to have access to the data that the devs do, so they can still plan/create encounters ?

I don't follow.

No, players don't need access to the data developers have in order to take on encounters, but combat trackers do not provide that information.

One issue I have is if I get to look at any data after a fight to help me figure out a more efficient way of going about it, it will take away from a more trial and error approach of just feeling things out. Probably a bad example to give but if I play Dark Souls and I look at the pattern of the boss after dying once then this is enough for me to probably beat it within the next 1-3 tries otherwise I would slave over the boss figuring out how exactly he attacks and how much damage each attack deals etc.

Without a combat tracker, you are engaging in trial and error blind.

With a combat tracker, you are trying out a thing, getting data, assessing that data, determining where any issues may be, working out a way to deal with those issues and then trying again.

Both are trial and error - one is just far superior to the other.

You also get data if you don't have a combat tracker it is just not as accurate as the combat tracker, I suppose if I was fighting a fire resistant mob I'd rather see for myself that "Hey the fireball seems to be dealing less damage than usual" rather than getting actual numbers that tell me so. I guess it comes down to personal preference at the end of the day, I'll leave it in Intrepids much more qualified hands to figure out things based on the testing we do.

Noaani

Gentle Snow wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Gentle Snow wrote: »

As far as planning encounters goes players would not need to have access to the data that the devs do, so they can still plan/create encounters ?

I don't follow.

No, players don't need access to the data developers have in order to take on encounters, but combat trackers do not provide that information.

One issue I have is if I get to look at any data after a fight to help me figure out a more efficient way of going about it, it will take away from a more trial and error approach of just feeling things out. Probably a bad example to give but if I play Dark Souls and I look at the pattern of the boss after dying once then this is enough for me to probably beat it within the next 1-3 tries otherwise I would slave over the boss figuring out how exactly he attacks and how much damage each attack deals etc.

Without a combat tracker, you are engaging in trial and error blind.

With a combat tracker, you are trying out a thing, getting data, assessing that data, determining where any issues may be, working out a way to deal with those issues and then trying again.

Both are trial and error - one is just far superior to the other.

You also get data if you don't have a combat tracker it is just not as accurate as the combat tracker, I suppose if I was fighting a fire resistant mob I'd rather see for myself that "Hey the fireball seems to be dealing less damage than usual" rather than getting actual numbers that tell me so. I guess it comes down to personal preference at the end of the day, I'll leave it in Intrepids much more qualified hands to figure out things based on the testing we do.

I mean, if we are talking about incredibly simple encounters like that, sure, a combat tracker isn't needed.

When you are talking about encounters with 30+ different mechanics on the go at a time though, you aren't going to notice if your fireball is doing full damage.

Honestly, I am not saying combat trackers are needed for base population, or even for easy boss content. I am saying they are needed if the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Honestly, I am not saying combat trackers are needed for base population, or even for easy boss content. I am saying they are needed if the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters.

"IF the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters."

Maybe we can all hyjack the Q/A thread like the guild of pirates and ask the DEVs for an examples of fights from other MMOs that will have a similar intricacy to the ones they plan for Ashes?

Volgaire

I'm sure they are needed I just don't want the player base to have access to them, as long as the devs can see the data provided and plan encounters from that I will be more than satisfied.

Biccus

Combat trackers give the community a way to help each other. If I'm a cleric in a raid group and another cleric asks me why they aren't doing well. If I could look at what spells they are casting etc I would have a much easier way of helping them. (example being HoT/buff uptimes you'd never know without a tracker)

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Honestly, I am not saying combat trackers are needed for base population, or even for easy boss content. I am saying they are needed if the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters.

"IF the game wants to have complex, intricate encounters."

Maybe we can all hyjack the Q/A thread like the guild of pirates and ask the DEVs for an examples of fights from other MMOs that will have a similar intricacy to the ones they plan for Ashes?

It would be more useful - though I don't expect them to really have an idea yet.

The kind of content I am talking about can't be create by the developers until the combat system is developed, tested, implemented and understood.

This means that this content type won't be in the game at release. It actually can't be developed and ready for release.

If you look at most games with good raid content, the best content is added to the game 2 - 5 years after the game is released.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

It would be more useful - though I don't expect them to really have an idea yet.

The kind of content I am talking about can't be create by the developers until the combat system is developed, tested, implemented and understood.

This means that this content type won't be in the game at release. It actually can't be developed and ready for release.

If you look at most games with good raid content, the best content is added to the game 2 - 5 years after the game is released.

True enough. Would still be nice to know what encounters from other games Jeff, Steven, or Margret struggled with. I just don't want people to flood the Q and A. I think that is kind of a silly way to do things.

I hope the joking tone of my prior post came across. I noticed some people take the things I say on here way too seriously.

Warth

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in?

Having access to data doesn't preclude adventure.

@Noaani You're missing the point... Did you read the description of that person's game session? An instanced battleground where he/she has multiple data trackers on the screen at all times. That does not sound like an orc hunting in a fantasy world (or whatever other adventure you would embark on)... which is what MMORPGs were designed for. An adventure to partake in.

An instanced battle that is heavily tracked by spreadsheets and data analyzers is nothing close to what a MMORGP is supposed to be. Just think about what he/she described. It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.

Sad Eve Online player noises

Warth

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in?

Having access to data doesn't preclude adventure.

@Noaani You're missing the point... Did you read the description of that person's game session? An instanced battleground where he/she has multiple data trackers on the screen at all times. That does not sound like an orc hunting in a fantasy world (or whatever other adventure you would embark on)... which is what MMORPGs were designed for. An adventure to partake in.

An instanced battle that is heavily tracked by spreadsheets and data analyzers is nothing close to what a MMORGP is supposed to be. Just think about what he/she described. It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.

Seems like a rather arbitrary point to draw a line at.
Thinking like that, you might as well start removing every piece of the UI that might distract from the adventure including party and raid health bars, your own/enemy health bar, pop up damage numbers, tooltips, buff and debuff indicators and your Ability Hotbar.

In the end, all those parts of the UI are mere numbers and data. None of those sound like a orc hunting in a fantasy world either.

VmanGman

Warth wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in?

Having access to data doesn't preclude adventure.

@Noaani You're missing the point... Did you read the description of that person's game session? An instanced battleground where he/she has multiple data trackers on the screen at all times. That does not sound like an orc hunting in a fantasy world (or whatever other adventure you would embark on)... which is what MMORPGs were designed for. An adventure to partake in.

An instanced battle that is heavily tracked by spreadsheets and data analyzers is nothing close to what a MMORGP is supposed to be. Just think about what he/she described. It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.

Seems like a rather arbitrary point to draw a line at.
Thinking like that, you might as well start removing every piece of the UI that might distract from the adventure including party and raid health bars, your own/enemy health bar, pop up damage numbers, tooltips, buff and debuff indicators and your Ability Hotbar.

In the end, all those parts of the UI are mere numbers and data. None of those sound like a orc hunting in a fantasy world either.

Right... it's impossible to see the difference between all those meters and the normal game UI. /s

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